Author Topic: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees  (Read 15435 times)

De Selby

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2008, 05:04:02 PM »
The allies don't seem to want anything to do with this business-indeed, England and Australia have been clamoring for an end to it.  If you take a minute to list the "allies" who will be most likely to carry out these substitute plans, it is easy to see how morally bankrupt and contrary to basic human decency the plans are.

There's something seriously wrong with a policy on detainee treatment and punishment when the only countries willing to enforce it are tinpot dictatorships like Uzbekistan.  
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Dntsycnt

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2008, 05:15:08 PM »
Finally someone is doing SOMETHING to rectify this mess.

grampster

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2008, 02:46:59 PM »
 never mind.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2008, 02:54:24 PM »
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We are ruled by scumbag lawyers and their post-American black-robed tyrant associates, nowadays.

I expect any new unlawful combatants will remain in-country and/or transferred over to allies.

Guantanamo is history.  Long live rat-infested prisons in allied countries!

YEAH!  Let's throw out the Constitution along with any pretense at rule by law.  Instead, let executive fiat rule; a benevolent dictatorship.  Yeah, that's what we want.   rolleyes

Desertdog

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2008, 03:02:48 PM »
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YEAH!  Let's throw out the Constitution along with any pretense at rule by law.
No, let us treat POWs as POWs.

lupinus

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2008, 03:27:05 PM »
When have POWs captured on the battlefield ever been granted the same rights and privileges as citizens again?

I'm all for a tribunal or something having to okay detainment.  But the simple fact they were captured on the battlefield with a rifle in their hands means they are an enemy combatant.  They are not afforded the right to a speedy trial, the right to not be held without being charged, etc.  This has always been the case, and should always be the case.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2008, 04:23:23 PM »
Either we are a nation of law, or we are not.  To apply different standards of criminal justice based on citizenship or nationality is indefensible, both from a legal and moral point of view.

Hell just froze over.  I agree with Shootinstudent and PaddyMcRiley all in the same post.
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roo_ster

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2008, 04:57:36 PM »
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We are ruled by scumbag lawyers and their post-American black-robed tyrant associates, nowadays.

I expect any new unlawful combatants will remain in-country and/or transferred over to allies.

Guantanamo is history.  Long live rat-infested prisons in allied countries!

YEAH!  Let's throw out the Constitution along with any pretense at rule by law.  Instead, let executive fiat rule; a benevolent dictatorship.  Yeah, that's what we want.   rolleyes
Uh, GWB's administration WAS following the law Congress passed, in case you have not bothered to read and understand the case and its background.

The UNLAWFUL combatants were being examined by military tribunals IAW the law as passed by the US Congress.

Now, this might test the limited flexibility of some folk's intellects, but consider the following:
1. UNLAWFUL combatants now have access to our federal, civilian legal system.  Do yo think for a minute that, if we have another war where LAWFUL combatants are a large number of the enemy, those LAWFUL combatants would get fewer options relative to UNLAWFUL combatants?
2. Now, stretch that intellect a little further and consider the tens of thousands of LAWFUL combatant prisoners we scooped up during WWII.  Consider that under the execrable ruling just handed down, every one of them would be required to have their day in American federal court.

What abject jackassery and abortion of jurisprudence.

Fred Thompson nailed it squarely:

Upon reading the opinion in Boumediene v Bush, one must conclude that the majority knew where they wanted to go and simply had to figure out how to get there. The trip was not a pretty one. How could it be when the justices seemingly wrote a map based on ideas cherry picked from over 400 years of established law and backfilled with justifications to create a new right for alien combatants that Americans themselves do not enjoy?

They could have saved us all a lot of time if theyd told us what was clearly on their minds.

    They dont trust military tribunals to deal with those accused of being enemy combatants, even if the tribunals are following guidelines established by Congress.

    That the government has probably detained some prisoners at Guantanamo for longer than they should have.

    And that Guantanamo should just be closed.

    Though they are willing to give it lip service, they dont really believe we are at war & at least not a real war.

    Therefore, they should create a new right for our nations enemies commiserate with the displeasure that they and the rest of the enlightened people have with this war, Guantanamo and the Bush Administration.

At least this approach would have been an honest one and based upon about as much legal justification as the approach they took.

But, instead  as Justice Scalia pointed out in his dissent  they for the first time in our nations history, conferred a Constitutional right of habeas corpus on alien enemies detained abroad by our military forces in the course of an ongoing war  a broader right than has been given to our own citizens. The court majority did so acknowledging that they could find no precedent to confer such a right to alien enemies not within sovereign U.S. territory

The majority had simply decided that prior courts had denied such rulings based on practical considerations. In other words in prior cases and prior wars it had just been too inconvenient to bestow the right of habeas corpus upon non-citizens in foreign jurisdictions. So, by focusing on what they saw as practical instead of those pesky court precedents based upon the issues of citizenship and foreign territory & and the Constitution & the majority reached the conclusion they wanted to, since what is practical is subjective. One can only ponder the state of our nation directed by the subjective instead of the Constitution.

As Chief Justice Roberts pointed out in his dissent, the court strikes down as inadequate the most generous set of protections ever afforded aliens detained by this country as enemy combatants.

Among the problems the majority saw was the prisoners limited access to classified information, even though his personal representative is allowed access to it and can summarize it for the accused. Exactly what procedures would pass muster with the majority? Well, this has to be figured out by the habeas court later  and most certainly be challenged in endless rounds of further litigation.

At this stage, no one can really tell the extent to which this decision is going to add to judicial confusion, additional administrative difficulty, time and attention of military personnel or how many more prisoners will be mistakenly released to join the at least 30 who were released from Guantanamo only to return to fight the United States.

In reading the majority opinion I am struck by the utter waste that is involved here. No, not the waste of military resources and human life, although such a result is tragically obvious. I refer to the waste of all those years these justices spent in law school studying how adherence to legal precedent is the bedrock of the rule of law, when it turns out, all they really needed was a Pew poll, a subscription to the New York Times, and the latest edition of How to Make War for Dummies.

It is truly stunning that this court has seen fit to arrogate unto itself a role in the most important issue facing any country, self-defense, in a case in which Congress has in fact repeatedly acted. This was not a case where Congress did not set the rules; it did. But the court still decided  in the face of overwhelming precedent to the contrary  to intervene. This decision, or course, will allow for "President Bush Is Rebuffed headlines, the implication being that the Administration was caught red-handed violating clearly established Constitutional rights when in fact the Administration, and the Congress for that matter, followed guidelines established by the Supreme Court itself in prior cases.

People can disagree over whether Congress got it right, but at least members have to face the voters. What remedy do people have now if they dont like the courts decision? None. If that thought is not enough to cause concerned citizens to turn out on Election Day to elect a new president, then I dont know what will be.

I also find it just a tad ironic that in a case involving habeas corpus, which literally means that one must produce a body (or person) before a court to explain the basis on which that person is being detained, the decision of this court may mean more fallen bodies in the defense of a Constitution some of these justices
ignored.
Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

De Selby

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2008, 05:08:02 PM »
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YEAH!  Let's throw out the Constitution along with any pretense at rule by law.
No, let us treat POWs as POWs.

POW's cannot be punished under international law unless they are given trials for war crimes.

They also get the right to receive care packages, to live in basically apartment like conditions, and to be released without any stigma or remaining restriction (apart from those convicted by courts for crimes).

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2008, 05:12:05 PM »
When have POWs captured on the battlefield ever been granted the same rights and privileges as citizens again?

I'm all for a tribunal or something having to okay detainment.  But the simple fact they were captured on the battlefield with a rifle in their hands means they are an enemy combatant.  They are not afforded the right to a speedy trial, the right to not be held without being charged, etc.  This has always been the case, and should always be the case.

No, this has never been the case.  A prisoner of war is not subject to punishment just because he was in an opposing army.

POW status is not a punishment, never has been.

Criminal punishment, on the other hand, can be imposed on people who have been captured...but it has always required a trial, as is customary in countries that have basic notions of justice.

Think about it for a second: No trials for people captured by the executive means the executive has the power to impose criminal punishment without any proof whatsoever.  That flies in the face of every sane concept of the role of punishment in civil society.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

lupinus

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2008, 05:24:32 PM »
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No, this has never been the case.  A prisoner of war is not subject to punishment just because he was in an opposing army.

POW status is not a punishment, never has been.
What punishment?  They were caught shooting at Americans, detained, and continued to be detained as long as releasing them posed a threat or terms to do so were agreed.

These people were not sentenced to imprisonment as punishment.  There were found to be a threat and detained.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

De Selby

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2008, 05:29:50 PM »
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No, this has never been the case.  A prisoner of war is not subject to punishment just because he was in an opposing army.

POW status is not a punishment, never has been.
What punishment?  They were caught shooting at Americans, detained, and continued to be detained as long as releasing them posed a threat or terms to do so were agreed.

These people were not sentenced to imprisonment as punishment.  There were found to be a threat and detained.

You are sort of describing the law of POW's-but that comes with requirements that they be treated well, have access to their home government and the red cross, the right to get care packages and mail, and the right to be released from the POW camp upon surrender of their home states.

But of course, Guantanamo isn't even an attempt at providing POW status-the government has denied that it has POW's from day one.  It is also attempting to sentence the prisoners for crimes-that is how this case got to the Supreme Court.

You can't have it both ways-if you throw people into open air cages and waterboard them every day, and then claim that they should be imprisoned for life, you do not have POW's.   And if you don't have POW's, then you are required to try them and prove their guilt before imposing punishment.

No way out of those alternatives, at least, not legally....illegally sure, but the idea in America is that the government is bound by laws, and that it must prove that individuals are guilty of a crime before it punishes them with imprisonment and/or death.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

lupinus

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2008, 05:31:32 PM »
Fine and granted.  But these people are POWs and to call them anything but is folly.  Personally I'd rather not have them back on the battle field because of what someone in the gubmint called them.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2008, 02:21:08 AM »
He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. - Thomas Paine

LadySmith

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2008, 03:17:33 AM »
Hell just froze over.  I agree with Shootinstudent and PaddyMcRiley all in the same post.
I thought it had gotten a little chilly around here.  cheesy

never mind.
sad
I really would've been interested in what you intended to say about this topic.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2008, 03:18:52 AM »
send em somewhere like syria from now on
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

roo_ster

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2008, 06:23:13 AM »
send em somewhere like syria from now on

I don't expect they'll go to Syria, but some place not so burdened with scumbag lawyers and black-robed tyrants.

In their efforts to hamper the USA's efforts and help the enemy, they will end up with more dead unlawful combatants and unlawful combatants in the care & feeding of countries not so solicitous of their care.

BTW, let me repeat again, unlawful combatants do not merit POW status or treatment according to our treaty obligations.
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roo_ster

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gunsmith

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2008, 06:56:27 AM »
this is making me really wonder about Heller.
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2008, 07:17:53 AM »
Basically all this ruling provides is that the government will have to prove to the Courts that it used some sort of process to reasonably assess the guilt of the detainees before imposing a punishment.

I think it's bizarre that some are calling this ruling a bonus for terrorism.  I believe that requiring the government to prove guilt, and providing defendants with the opportunity to claim that they are not in fact guilty, is a pretty bare-bones requirement of having a free society. 

There's no such thing as a free country where the government can imprison you based on an allegation, and then punish you without proving that allegation to anyone or answering to any independent reviewer.
Well said. I'm with Nitrogen, I agree with you for once.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2008, 07:23:39 AM »
He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. - Thomas Paine
Excellent quote.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2008, 08:02:18 AM »
I can't believe I'm typing it:

What Paddy and Shootingstudent said.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2008, 09:52:42 AM »
we've already revolving doored one gitmo resident  second time we catch em can we just shoot em?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

SteveS

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2008, 10:22:39 AM »


Fred Thompson nailed it squarely:



He did?  Have you read the decision?  I am still working my way though it, but I am having trouble seeing what he is seeing and wonder if he is reading the same decision.  I have seen tons of speculation about what will happen, but a considerable amount seems to be not based on reality.  Read the decision for yourself:

Quote
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Desertdog

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2008, 10:29:05 AM »
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we've already revolving doored one gitmo resident  second time we catch em can we just shoot em?
And more than one killed on the battle field.

taurusowner

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2008, 01:16:18 PM »
So lets say in some crazy future, the US, and a few other nations, go to war with say...China.  Does that mean the hundreds of thousands of EPWs that we would capture all have to have their own trials?


And on the practical side for right now, all this ruling really means is that a lot of suspected terrorists are just going to end up getting shot.  Instead of wasting the millions of dollars shipping them around the world so they can talk to lawyer after lawyer for months or years, they're just gonna either get A: turned over to the Iraqi govt or B: shot instead of captured in the first place.