Author Topic: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees  (Read 15435 times)

De Selby

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2008, 01:29:20 PM »
So lets say in some crazy future, the US, and a few other nations, go to war with say...China.  Does that mean the hundreds of thousands of EPWs that we would capture all have to have their own trials?


And on the practical side for right now, all this ruling really means is that a lot of suspected terrorists are just going to end up getting shot.  Instead of wasting the millions of dollars shipping them around the world so they can talk to lawyer after lawyer for months or years, they're just gonna either get A: turned over to the Iraqi govt or B: shot instead of captured in the first place.

No-but it does mean they have to be treated as Prisoners of War, which means they have rights.

And unless you believe that the military is going to look the other way on conduct that would otherwise invoke the death penalty under the UCMJ, I highly doubt that this is going to result in "more getting shot."  The military and the civilian justice system both frown on shooting surrendered persons-whether they are criminals or not.

Like I said though, try to come up with a list of nations that will take the prisoners from us.  That is illustration enough as to how backwards this policy is-when only Uzbekistan and similarly run dictatorships will do it, that is a sure sign that the policy is too morally corrupt and barbaric for the civilized world.
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RevDisk

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2008, 01:56:51 PM »
Well, since the "detainees" now are afforded the same rights as American citizens,   and since they haven't been arraigned within a reasonable time frame, they should be immediately released as they have not received the speedy trial the constitution requires.

I suggest they be released in the hometowns of the five supreme court justices.


Ah.  Perhaps I am below the medium IQ, but I don't equate deserving a trial to "full rights of US citizens".  We're not the Soviet Union.  America is not supposed to have gulags, secret trials, and punishment on mere allegations.  We give 'em a full trial, let them have a chance to be proven innocent or guilty.  Then we let them go, or shoot them.  Giving someone a fair trial is not the same thing as automatically finding them innocent.
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Desertdog

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2008, 02:34:55 PM »
Quote
A: turned over to the Iraqi govt or B: shot instead of captured in the first place.
Or C: The military build POW camps in Iraq.

De Selby

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2008, 03:17:50 PM »
Quote
A: turned over to the Iraqi govt or B: shot instead of captured in the first place.
Or C: The military build POW camps in Iraq.

POW camps would defeat the entire purpose of Guantanamo, which is to deny any rights whatsoever to the detainees.

If they wanted to give POW status, they easily could have done that a long time ago.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2008, 03:24:53 PM »
The Devil must be sharpening his ice skates, I'm finding myself agreeing with SS, Paddy, and RevDisk all in one thread.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2008, 04:17:41 PM »
The Devil must be sharpening his ice skates, I'm finding myself agreeing with SS, Paddy, and RevDisk all in one thread.

You get used to it.  After a while the room stops spinning and you get your sense of balance back.  grin

To summarize:

Captured while explicitly or implicitly at war with the USA and NOT accused of committing a crime or violation of the Laws of War? 

POW and held with the rights thereunto pertaining.

Captured while explicitly or implicitly at war with the USA and ALSO accused of committing an actual crime or violation of the Laws of War? 

Not a POW and thus subject to the legal system and the due process thereof.

Not sure why we needed a "third way" in the first place.  Working up rules of evidence that balanced due process with national security wouldn't have been that hard right from the start, especially given the traditional deference towards NS the Courts show during times of war.

By trying to sidestep the issue, instead of dealing with it up front, the administration brought these problems on themselves.

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2008, 08:00:01 PM »
Quote
Basically all this ruling provides is that the government will have to prove to the Courts that it used some sort of process to reasonably assess the guilt of the detainees before imposing a punishment.
Don't forget, which the Supremes may have fotgotten, these are not American citizens, except 2, and they were all captured in a war zone, including the 2 American citizens, and they have never been on American soil.

Well, yes ... and no.

If you remember back far enough, the detention center at Guantanamo was set up after the confrontation with the Taliban, in Afghanistan ... a couple of years before we invaded Iraq. Most of the detainees have been there since the place opened, and many have yet to be charged with any crime.

But: 'War zone"? What war? There was no "war" in Afghanistan. The Congress did not declare war. The Congress did not even adopt a namby-pamby non-declaration declaration "authorizing the use of force" as they did prior to the invasion of Iraq. In fact, the U.S. mostly fought the Taliban in Afghanistan through surrogates, the motley crew of warlords otherwise known as the "northern alliance." The majority of the detainees were swept up by various arms of the so-called northern alliance. Many of them were, in fact, defending thier country and their government. Some of them possibly weren't even fighting, but were swept up anyway because somebody who didn't like them told the northern alliance they were bad people who supported the Taliban.

It's almost certain that none of the detainees ever aimed a weapon of any kind at any United States military assets.
Heck, even John Walker Lind, the "American Taliban" kid, never engaged in combat against the United States. The group he was with lost a battle with the northern alliance and Lind was in a group of northern alliance prisoners that was turned over to the U.S. The charges against him were ridiculous, but the Bush administration had so demonized him that he had to cop a plea to avoid being railroaded (more than he was).

If you haven't guessed ... I agree with the court decision. I have to. Otherwise, I'd be grantning the government permission to arrest me and lock me up indefinitely without ever telling me what the charges are, without telling anyone where I am, and without giving me any opportunity to defend myself against whatever they might (someday) decide to charge me with.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2008, 08:02:50 PM »
It's almost certain that none of the detainees ever aimed a weapon of any kind at any United States military assets.


you think? i think you are mistaken
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2008, 08:11:27 PM »
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2007/07/018063.php

serving time not for any act committed against the United States, but for violating a Clinton-era presidential order that prohibits providing "services" to the Taliban. Lindh, who converted to Islam as a teenager, joined the Taliban before Sept. 11, not after; he did so to fight the Northern Alliance, not the United States. Lindh never took up arms against this country. He never engaged in terrorism; indeed, his commitment to Islam leads him to oppose the targeting of civilians.
This is the version of the facts that Lindh's family has promoted in its campaign to get him released from prison. The Times swallows it whole; but it is misleading at best. The grand jury's indictment of Lindh is here. The charges against Lindh included the following:


* In or about June and July 2001, LINDH remained at the al-Farooq camp and participated fully in its training activities, after having been told early in his stay at the camp that Bin Laden had sent forth some fifty people to carry out twenty suicide terrorist operations against the United States and Israel.

* In or about June or July 2001, LINDH met personally with Bin Laden, who thanked him and other trainees for taking part in jihad.

* In or about June or July 2001, LINDH swore allegiance to jihad.

* After learning about the terrorist attacks against the United States on or about September 11, 2001, LINDH remained with his fighting group. LINDH did so despite having been told that Bin Laden had ordered the attacks, that additional terrorist attacks were planned, and that additional al Qaeda personnel were being sent from the training camps to the front lines to protect Bin Laden and defend against an anticipated military response from the United States.

* From in or about October through early December 2001, LINDH remained with his fighting group after learning that United States military forces and United States nationals had become directly engaged in support of the Northern Alliance in its military conflict with Taliban and al Qaeda forces.

* In or about November 2001, LINDH's fighting group retreated from Takhar to the area of Kunduz, Afghanistan, and ultimately surrendered to Northern Alliance troops. On or about November 24, 2001, LINDH and other captured fighters were trucked to Mazar-e Sharif, in Afghanistan, and then to the nearby Qala-i Janghi ("QIJ") prison compound.

* On or about November 25, 2001, LINDH was interviewed in the QIJ compound by two Americans, CIA employee Johnny Micheal Spann and another United States Government employee, who were attempting to identify al Qaeda members among the prisoners.

* On or about November 25, 2001, Taliban detainees in the QIJ compound attacked Spann and the other employee, overpowered the guards, and armed themselves. Spann was shot and killed in the violent attack. After being wounded, LINDH retreated with other detainees to a basement area of the QIJ compound. The bloody uprising took several days to suppress.

* From on or about November 25, 2001 though on or about December 1, 2001, LINDH remained in the basement area of QIJ with other Taliban and al Qaeda fighters until their recapture. (In violation of 18 U.S.C. § 2332(b)(2).)


Robert Pelton, the CNN journalist who "discovered" Lindh, tells the bloody story that lies behind those dry paragraphs, beginning with the fact that it was al Qaeda that Lindh served:

John Walker Lindh was an Arab speaking member of bin Ladens terror legions. He called it Al Ansar (the correct term) we call them al Qaeda. He was never a member of the Taliban. Why[?] ecause Lindh only spoke Arabic and English he would have been useless in a combat situation among Pashto or Dari speaking troops.
The chilling story of Lindh's treason begins with his group's fake "surrender:"

Dostum drove by on his way to Kunduz and told them to be disarmed and taken to his garrison called Qali Jangi. Lindh during that entire time was within feet of western journalists and US forces and could have simply identified himself as an American. But he chose to stay in the company of killers. Lindh also knew that his cohorts were still secretly armed with pistols, rifles and even grenades tied by shoelaces and dangling around their groin area. ...
The Uzbek terrorists among Lindhs group were ecstatic. Qali Jangi was where they had trained under the Taliban and the storage rooms of garrison were literally overflowing with weapons confiscated and stored by the Taliban. Upon arrival one of the Uzbeks immediately killed himself with a grenade while trying to murder what he thought was Dostum. It was Dostum's Intel officer (who survived) and a Hazara general was killed. ...

Terrified and outnumbered by the false surrender the Afghan guards (there were only about 100 guards for the 460 prisoners) pushed the killers down into the basement of a fortified schoolhouse until they could be searched in the morning. That night in the cramped five-room basement there was an angry and desperate argument among the prisoners. The Saudis and Uzbeks planned an attack; they just needed a diversion to get to the weapons stored a few yards from the pink schoolhouse. The Pakistanis wanted to just surrender and go home. According to the survivors I interviewed, Lindh was an Arab speaking al qaeda member and had full knowledge of this discussion and he has yet to admit which path he was going to choose. ...

The next morning two CIA officers went to Qali Jangi to interview the prisoners. Mike Spann and Dave Tyson arrived in separate vehicles. Tyson spoke a number of languages but Spann only spoke English. The prisoners were brought up one at a time. They were searched, bound with their turbans and then marched into lines inside the southern courtyard. Spann walked up and down the lines of prisoners. He asked an Iraqi mechanic who spoke English if there were any other prisoners who spoke English. The Iraqi pointed out the Irishman. Lindh had been told to say he was Irish in the camps to avoid problems. Spann had Lindh brought over away from the main group and put out a blanket for him. ... Mike pleads with Lindh to talk. Lindh remains hostile and silent.

  • ne thing is clear; they offer Lindh a way out. Lindh is alone with two of his fellow countrymen with full knowledge of the violence that is about to happen. He says nothing. If there was ever one moment that will define one man and damn another this was it.

Lindh is put back into the lineup, and Mike Spann will die in the next few minutes as Uzbeks rush up from the basement, yelling Allahhuakbar [and] detonat[ing] hidden grenades. The fighting begins. Lindh has once again has been given a clear choice between right and wrong and once again. He makes that clear choice again.

It is not known what Lindh and his fellow terrorists did for the next few days while fighting raged and Mike Spanns still body lay there with two AK 47 bullet holes through his head - one straight down, and one from left to right. When the Afghan Commander Fakir used pleading, threats, then finally flame, explosions and flooding, to roust the killers, the first person that came up to negotiate on behalf of the jihadis was John Walker Lindh. The same murderous group that had shot and killed a clearly identified elderly Red Cross worker who went down to look for bodies a week earlier.


So much for the L. A. Times's claim that Lindh never took up arms against Americans. I've saved for last, however, what I found most galling about the Times's editorial--the way it began:

The president's power to grant clemency -- in the form of either a pardon or a commutation -- is much maligned and occasionally abused, as was the case when President Bush used it to keep his colleague, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, from facing even a day in prison for lying and obstructing justice. But the power has its appropriate uses as well, and the case of John Walker Lindh calls out for it.
Lewis Libby devoted his life to public service. As Assistant to the Vice President for National Security Affairs, Libby was among the leaders of those charged with keeping this country safe from the likes of John Lindh after September 11. He and his colleagues performed that task flawlessly. Yet it is not Libby's public service that merits clemency, in the Times's view; on the contrary! That clemency was misguided at best. In the world of the Los Angeles Times--which I think can fairly be seen as the world of American liberalism--Libby should be fed to the wolves, while mercy should be reserved for the disciple of bin Laden who participated in the murders of an American officer and a number of allied Afghans. This sums up quite well, I think, the perverse world-view that contemporary liberalism has become.

Via Lucianne.

It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2008, 08:26:25 PM »
to be fair heres lil johnny's dads version of reallity
http://www.alternet.org/story/31211/?page=1

its 6 pages of lawyerspeak
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Hawkmoon

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2008, 08:35:06 PM »
Out of all that stuff you reproduced, one paragraph confirms that what I said was correct:

Quote
* In or about November 2001, LINDH's fighting group retreated from Takhar to the area of Kunduz, Afghanistan, and ultimately surrendered to Northern Alliance troops.

The rest ... well, I don't quite know what you think it proves.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2008, 08:47:59 PM »
 In or about June and July 2001, LINDH remained at the al-Farooq camp and participated fully in its training activities, after having been told early in his stay at the camp that Bin Laden had sent forth some fifty people to carry out twenty suicide terrorist operations against the United States and Israel.


After learning about the terrorist attacks against the United States on or about September 11, 2001, LINDH remained with his fighting group. LINDH did so despite having been told that Bin Laden had ordered the attacks, that additional terrorist attacks were planned, and that additional al Qaeda personnel were being sent from the training camps to the front lines to protect Bin Laden and defend against an anticipated military response from the United States.

here let me narrow your search

h
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Hawkmoon

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2008, 08:53:14 PM »
In or about June and July 2001, LINDH remained at the al-Farooq camp and participated fully in its training activities, after having been told early in his stay at the camp that Bin Laden had sent forth some fifty people to carry out twenty suicide terrorist operations against the United States and Israel.


After learning about the terrorist attacks against the United States on or about September 11, 2001, LINDH remained with his fighting group. LINDH did so despite having been told that Bin Laden had ordered the attacks, that additional terrorist attacks were planned, and that additional al Qaeda personnel were being sent from the training camps to the front lines to protect Bin Laden and defend against an anticipated military response from the United States.

here let me narrow your search

h

And this demonstrates ... what, exactly?

Did you read the article? Lindh was not a member of al Quaeda. Lindh was with the Afghan Army (remember, no matter how much we disliked them, at that time the Taliban were the government of Afghanistan) fighting against the Northern Alliance. He was still fighting against (or running away from ) the Northern Alliance when he was captured and wounded.

He was NOT fighting against the United States, and he did NOT participate in or plot any terroristic plots against the United States.

The kid was railroaded. It's just that simple.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2008, 08:59:05 PM »
SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP)  The U.S. has charged a Guantanamo prisoner with war crimes for the deadly 1998 al-Qaida attack on the American embassy in Tanzania.
The Pentagon said Monday that Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani could receive the death penalty if convicted by a military tribunal at the U.S. military prison.

The charges against Ghailani include murder and attacking civilians for his alleged role in a bombing that killed 11 people and wounded hundreds.

He is the 15th person charged in the military tribunals at Guantanamo, where trials are expected to get under way in late spring or early summer.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) -- The U.S. has charged a Guantanamo prisoner with war crimes for the deadly 1998 al-Qaida attack on the American embassy in Tanzania.

The Pentagon said Monday that Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani could receive the death penalty if convicted by a military tribunal at the U.S. military prison.

The charges against Ghailani include murder and attacking civilians for his alleged role in a bombing that killed 11 people and wounded hundreds.

He is the 15th person charged in the military tribunals at Guantanamo, where trials are expected to get under way in late spring or early summer







 these prisoners will result in their return to terrorism, creating more danger for civilians and for the military still working to bring an end to the Taliban and their allies, al-Qaeda. More than a few have been captured a second time or killed in battle with Western forces.

This time, the terrorist committed suicide by grenade rather than get captured alive in an attempt to take a couple of his enemies with him:

A former Guantanamo Bay prisoner wanted for the 2004 kidnapping of two Chinese engineers in Pakistan blew himself up with a grenade during a clash with security forces on Tuesday, officials said.
One-legged Taliban militant Abdullah Mehsud killed himself to avoid capture after troops raided his hideout, interior ministry spokesman Brigadier Javed Cheema told AFP.

The Islamic rebel's death comes amid intensifying US pressure on President Pervez Musharraf to take military action against Al-Qaeda and Taliban safe havens in tribal areas along the border with Afghanistan.


Mehsud spent 25 months at Gitmo before getting released in March 2004. It took him all of six months to ascend to a leadership position with the Taliban afterwards. He ran a hostaging operation that went awry, holding two Chinese hydroelectric engineers captured at a dam project. The Pakistanis tried to rescue the pair in a military operation, but botched it. One hostage died, and Mehsud slipped away.

He spent the next three years conducting terrorist operations. The Pentagon had identified him as the leader of cross-border raids that attacked American forces in Afghanistan, the kind that has so frustrated NATO and led to American demands for the right to hot-pursuit missions into Pakistan. Mehsud also has at least one other connection to Taliban leadership: his brother Baitullah, a leading commander who has conducted a wave of suicide bombings in Pakistan recently.

Not only did Mehsud have information that could have helped intel to this very day, he's exactly the kind of higher-level terrorist we wanted to keep off the battlefield. His release cost many lives, starting with the Chinese engineer but likely Coalition troops as well, which are primarily American. Why did he get released from Gitmo? More importantly, why do we want to release any more of them?

This is war, not a case of organized crime. Combatants who do not conduct themselves according to the Geneva Conventions do not get POW status when captured -- and they certainly shouldn't get normal criminal rights in their place. We need to keep the unlawful combatants detained until the end of all hostilities, even if that means decades, for the safety of our troops and civilians around the world. How many more of these repeats do we need to see before people finally learn that lesson?

It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2008, 09:04:13 PM »
how was lil johnny railroaded?  i think he got off light
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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De Selby

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2008, 09:44:30 PM »
how was lil johnny railroaded?  i think he got off light

He wasn't railroaded, but he did get convicted of conduct that many people (including non-citizens and citizens) have already been set free over with little or no punishment.  David Hicks had the worst punishment doled out besides John Walker for extremely similar facts-and he didn't get half of what John Walker did.


Quote
He was NOT fighting against the United States, and he did NOT participate in or plot any terroristic plots against the United States.

The kid was railroaded. It's just that simple.

These are key facts-I recall seeing info to the effect that he didn't even know September 11th had taken place.

He did have lawyers, though, and they certainly advised him to plead to the deal he got.  I think they underestimated the American people-they've already refused to convict in some very high profile cases where the conduct just did not meet the definition of the crime.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2008, 09:48:28 PM »
The Devil must be sharpening his ice skates, I'm finding myself agreeing with SS, Paddy, and RevDisk all in one thread.

You get used to it.  After a while the room stops spinning and you get your sense of balance back.  grin

To summarize:

Captured while explicitly or implicitly at war with the USA and NOT accused of committing a crime or violation of the Laws of War? 

POW and held with the rights thereunto pertaining.

Captured while explicitly or implicitly at war with the USA and ALSO accused of committing an actual crime or violation of the Laws of War? 

Not a POW and thus subject to the legal system and the due process thereof.

Not sure why we needed a "third way" in the first place.  Working up rules of evidence that balanced due process with national security wouldn't have been that hard right from the start, especially given the traditional deference towards NS the Courts show during times of war.

By trying to sidestep the issue, instead of dealing with it up front, the administration brought these problems on themselves.



This comment is spot on-that is exactly what happened.  Instead of designing special procedural rules to fairly assess guilt while protecting sensitive information (something they've been doing since the cold war), they thought the political climate would allow them to get away with providing no process whatsoever. 

I think history will record this as one of the closer calls between executive authority and independent judicial review in America.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2008, 02:20:27 AM »
These are key facts-I recall seeing info to the effect that he didn't even know September 11th had taken place.


his own statements as well as his fathers "piece" say otherwise.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2008, 10:52:45 AM »
Ok, so Lindh is a "rotten son of a gun"
Last time I checked, rotten sons of a gun deserved justice, just as much as everyone else.

The day we stop giving people access to justice is the day this country ceases to be America, and becomes Something Else, and that something else should not stand.

If he's so obviously guilty, the trial should be easy.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Supreme Court backs Guantanamo detainees
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2008, 10:58:59 AM »
Ok, so Lindh is a "rotten son of a gun"
Last time I checked, rotten sons of a gun deserved justice, just as much as everyone else.

The day we stop giving people access to justice is the day this country ceases to be America, and becomes Something Else, and that something else should not stand.

If he's so obviously guilty, the trial should be easy.

ummm  he got a trial and a sentence   did you have a point?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I