I just want to whine... life is so unfair... advice?

[Kyle]

So, I graduated from college last week. Hooray! However, I have a problem.

All throughout my college career, I have known this girl. I have always had a thing for her, and we have hung out on and off. After knowing her and being "just friends" for a couple years, I realized that I am desperately in love with this woman. In the last couple of weeks, however, we have really connected on a romantic level and we see each other every day. She has admitted that she is in love with me too.

She comes over every day after she gets off work. I make her dinner and afterwards we cuddle in bed (PG-13 stuff only) and talk for hours until she has to go home. See, she lives with her parents. And she is Muslim. And her family is REALLY Muslim. REALLY traditional. They are some big-shot super-rich Palestinian family. And if she were ever caught with me, she would be in a bit of trouble to say the least. For ruining her family name, etc.

This is a problem. We want to be together, but we can't. She is really loyal to her family, and that is one of the reasons I respect her. I love her for it. So I would never ask her to give them the finger for me, because that would destroy part of the reason I love her.

There is no reasoning with the situation. In Islam, and in her family, men can date/marry women of any religion. But women can only marry Muslim men (the assumption is that the children will follow the religion of the father). And converting to Islam is not an option for me.

The other thing is, I am moving in a couple weeks. Not very far, but given her family situation, it is unlikely that I will see her much anymore, if ever again.

So my question to you all is: do I enjoy it while it can last, however brief? Or should I get out now before I get in even deeper in, more heartbreak, and possibly getting her in trouble with her family?

- With regards,
  Romeo Montague aka Kyle

[RoadKingLarry]

Why is converting to Islam not an option, hell, if she is okay with lip service to appease her family then go for it.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Does she herself have a problem with you not being Muslim, or is it only her family that has a problem with your (lack of) religion?

You say that she is "loyal to her family".  Does that mean that if the family says you're not an acceptable partner that she would abide by their decision?

[Kyle]

No, she is more of a pragmatist than than. She KNOWS very well that I would not be an acceptable choice as a partner, as far as her family is concerned. However, her feelings are more along the lines of "what they dont know wont hurt them." Where she draws the line is the possibility of us openly being in a relationship/getting married. If we were to do that, it would cause a stir of "Did you hear about the Miller's (obviously not her real name) daughter? She is getting married to an infidel!" This would be a huge blow to her family's honor, and she is not willing to do that out of loyalty.

Why is converting to Islam not an option for me? Because I do not believe in god, much less that particular god. I don't think I could live my life with that kind of a lie even if I was willing to try it (which I am not).

She used to have a problem with me not being Muslim. Before we became friends, she had never really been close to any non-Muslim people. She was really surprised at first that I was actually a decent person, despite my disbelief. Now that she knows me so well, she has no issue with it. 

She is not just paying lip service to her family. She really does consider herself a Muslim, and believes in God.

It is a sort of generational gap that I have noticed a lot of people like her face. They are Muslim/Hindu/whatever. Their parents were born in Saudi/Palestine/India/wherever, but they were born here. Their parents take a very hardline cultural and religious attitude towards the behavior of their children, while the children (now young adults) take a much more cultural relativist, moderate, "liberal" attitude towards their own behavior as a result of the assimilation process.

For example, I have a friend who is dating a Pakistani girl. Her family is strict, but not so strict that they are gonna arrange a marriage for her. However, she is not allowed to date or even be friends with men, even though she is in her early 20's. As far as her parents are concerned, she will NEVER be "old enough" to associate with men. Age is not the point. Women are not supposed to associate with men unless they are family, or a husband. However, they are not going to arrange a marriage for her because they are more "modern" than that.

It creates a no-win scenario where the poor girl is not going to be set up by her parents, but neither is it acceptable for her to find her own partner. It makes no sense. It is a cultural rift that is really difficult to adapt to.

[vaskidmark]

So you are deeply and seriously in love with her.  You worship the ground she walks on, you live and breathe to be near her.  She is your ideal of the epitome of everything fine and good about the female of the species.

And to prove this, you encourage her to violate every value her family has indoctrinated in her, and expose her to the very real risk of becoming the victim of an "honor killing".

OK, I guess I have your attention by now.

Let's figure this out, shall we?

You know what you have been doing is "not right" by several standards and levels of morality - hers, her family's, and yours.

You refuse to even consider the only possible line of action that might rectify most of the evil you have done, and the one thing that might prevent her death by "honor killing" should her family ever find out what has happened.  And you know they eventually will find out, don't you?

And you are moving away.  No mention of trying to figure out how to avoid the move, of maintaing a long-distance relationship, of clandestine meetings when you sneak back into town or she sneaks out of town - just you are moving away.

All you want to know is if you should continue this line of behavior until the time you move away.

I suppose it's good that you two have been able to keep your hormones in check to some degree.  That will not save her from her family, but you will probably feel good about it.

You want advice?  I'll give you advice.

Grow up.  Man up.  Wisk her out of her family and out of town and try to protect her.  Marry her and get her pregnant as soon as you can, regardless if you have a job, a place to live, or the income to support a family.  At least you will have love and your idealized fantasy.

Or realize this has been an adolescent fantasy and you need to quit playing games now.  Drop her, drop the mooning about/after her, and put the memory away in a safe & secret place where you might, some day, decide to pull it out and smile that special smile that your wife/companion will ask you about and you will answer "Oh, nothing.  I was just thinking about when I was a kid and how nice it was," or some BS line like that.

I apologize if your "feelings" got hurt.  It may be better than the real, living people that get hurt.

BTW, you get to learn a truism early on - life sucks and then you die.  (It's how you deal with that fact that determines if your particular life will or will not suck most of the time.)

stay safe.

skidmark

[grampster]

The wisdom of vaskidmark comes with the seasoning of years that he has.  I concur with his advice wholeheartedly.  You are young and have a long and interesting life ahead of you.  This assignation has been an enjoyable, comfortable interlude.  Keep it that way and move on.  I still love an idealized version of a girl that I graduated with in 1961 who had nothing to do with me whatsoever.  That memory has been a nice fantasy for 50 years.  But, that's all it ever was or will be.

Move on young man before you make a big mistake.

[Hawkmoon]

I don't have any good answers for you. I will note that I have a good friend (now living in another state) who is of Unitarian/Jewish parentage and who is himself an agnostic. Not an atheist, just an agnostic. He is married to a Muslim woman. Curiously, they chose to base their wedding ceremony on the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer. (Really. I know they did, because I helped them write the cermony and their respective vows.) The wedding was in the U.S. and a video was sent to her family in Turkey. They were perfectly satisfied once they saw that their daughter was legally married, rather than shacked up and living in sin.

The catch, though, is that she is from Turkey, not Palestine. My friend has visited Turkey both before the wedding and multiple times after. Her parents accept him and approve of the marriage. But Turkey is a much more secular variant of Islam than Palestine.

I guess what I'm leading up to is that, if my friend's in-laws can welcome an "infidel" into the family, maybe it's not as inconceivable as you and your gal think for her family to consider it. Is it possible that your disbelief in God might, in this instance, be an advantage rather than a disadvantage? After all, you are not Hebrew, and you are not Christian. You are not, in fact, a believer in any god other than Allah. Is it possible this might make you more acceptable (or perhaps "less unacceptable" would be more appropriate) to her family?

The other thing is, if she is in the U.S. and her family is in Palestine, although certainly she wouldn't/shouldn't and probably couldn't get marrried without telling the immediate family, if the immediate family could be persuaded to accept you then maybe she could just sort of "drop off the radar" as far as the rest of the family is concerned?

I don't know. I wish I could be of more help, but you are truly between a rock and a hard place.

[Monkeyleg]

Would you sever all ties with your family to be with her? That's what would be required for her, unless you were to convert to Islam, which you don't want to do (although I don't understand why).

If she can't sever all ties to her family, which she shouldn't, and you can't convert to Islam, then this was just an interesting chapter in your life. But get out of her life before you ruin hers.

[Standing Wolf]

Drop the girl.

Go buy some guns and put in some range time.

Get a job and work on your career.

Find a woman who represents herself instead of a whole tribe of people.

Be happy; live long; don't forget range time.

[Regolith]

Is it possible that your disbelief in God might, in this instance, be an advantage rather than a disadvantage? After all, you are not Hebrew, and you are not Christian. You are not, in fact, a believer in any god other than Allah. Is it possible this might make you more acceptable (or perhaps "less unacceptable" would be more appropriate) to her family?

Not likely.  Unless they happen to be more modern than Kyle is relating, its likely that being an atheist will make things worse.  In centuries past, Muslims gave Christians and Jews a pass in the lands they conquered because they were still "people of the book" (after all, the Christian Bible is based off the Judaic Torah, and the Koran is based on both books).  Atheists and pagans, however, were summarily killed if they failed to convert to Islam.

I doubt that the tendency to look on pagans and atheists with extreme disfavor has changed much, even in the less traditional sects.  

[zahc]

which you don't want to do (although I don't understand why).

Um, I'm not sure about how it all works to be honest, but aren't there some body modifications involved?

[digitalandanalog]

I feel your pain.

I didn't get the girl that I wanted. I didn't get the girl I needed either.

Sometimes you get dealt a bad hand of cards and all you can do is bluff your way out of completely losing every thing.

Point is...it may break your heart and it could screw with you for years (even until the day you die), but you will continue to breathe and make an attempt to move forward in your life. You have no other option after your inevitable split from this girl.

Besides, you might just meet someone just like her who can actually become your life mate without fear of retribution.

I have been on every bad side of the "relationship factor" and I still have hope that I will meet a nice girl who actually wants me too.

HOPE...our greatest strength...our greatest weakness.

[Kyle]

Umm... no body modifications that I am aware of.    

As for vaskidmark, his comments seem to be based on the inexplicably garnered assumption that there will be an honor killing involved if things go awry. As well as some other assumptions that aren't true to my situation, So I am ignoring them.

As far as the possibility of her family being ok with me as a non-Muslim of any kind, its just not gonna happen. She has carefully explained that Muslim women cannot be with non-Muslim men (at least where she comes from).

Also, I forgot to mention the fact that even if I DID convert to Islam (which I wont), that doesnt change the fact that I am white. White American converts are at the very lowest rung of the social hierarchy. Arabs (generally) are really, really, really racist.

I realize that this is an impossible situation. I am (like the subject line says) just whining. Constructive advice/criticism is much appreciated, especially when based on personal experience or the details of my first and second posts.

Weird "omg honor killings roflcopter" comments aren't really helpful. Her family isnt the honor killing type. People in her family have broken the mold before. They are not killed, they are simply cut off from all but essential (occasional phone calls, funerals) contact and ostracized by the community.

[Sindawe]

As for vaskidmark, his comments seem to be based on the inexplicably garnered assumption that there will be an honor killing involved if things go awry. As well as some other assumptions that aren't true to my situation, So I am ignoring them.

Never underestimate the depths of madness our species can decent to when we feel that our own (and there by Bestest and ONLY TRUE invisable friend in the sky) has been insulted.  By an "Infidel" no less....

Those telling you to drop the girl, however sweet and dear she is to you now are correct.  She will not abandon her family for you, and you will not assume the garb of Islam to be with her.

Break it off.  Go out, get drunk, do some irrational mind state altering stuff like jumping out of a perfectly good airplane.  Spend some time listening to sad songs, greiving and sitting shiva for what was and all that could have been.

And move on.  With luck you'll find another special she who you can spend most of your life with.

If not, well there are worse things than being alone.

Like spending most of your life living a lie with someone you can not stand to be around.

[Monkeyleg]

Like spending most of your life living a lie with someone you can not stand to be around.

So, you've been married for a long time, too?

[Strings]

Reach over your head. You'll find two handles, painted in black and yellow stripes. Grasp them, and pull down and forward sharply. Keep your arms and legs tucked in tight, and enjoy the ride...

 Man up, and tell her that you have to stop seeing her. Lay it out on the line that you feel it is better to end things now, and move on, than to keep going and risk problems. 

 You say that her family isn't the "honor killing type", but they can and likely will ostracize her if they find out about you. And the longer things go on, the more likely that is to happen. It's one thing to leave everything behind for someone you've made a choice to be with, quite another to find yourself cut off, unexpectedly, and not have someone there. If you keep seeing her in what is considered an unacceptable way by her family, that's exactly what you're risking...

[Balog]

Either grow a set of balls and convince her to drop her racist ahole family, or grow a set of balls and stop running the risk of getting her ostracized so you can make out and feel her up.

There is no honor in your behaviour thus far, and I have no sympathy for your "plight." Whiny indeed. Grow up and act like a man.

[Antibubba]

No matter what you both feel about it now, the differences in your beliefs will be a problem.  Undoubtedly you can pretend to have deep beliefs for her family to see, but as soon as children are brought into it there will be conflicts.  Having children throws all reason out the window.

That said, it can be made to work--my brother is an agnostic/atheistic Jew, and my SIL is a devout Southern Baptist.  They have two kids, and I don't have the slightest idea how they do it.  Both sets of parents are very supportive, however.

Even if you think the honor killing stuff is exaggerated, listen to vaskidmark, because he is essentially correct.

[MicroBalrog]

And to prove this, you encourage her to violate every value her family has indoctrinated in her, and expose her to the very real risk of becoming the victim of an "honor killing".

I stopped listening there. Even in Muslim countries, among far more religious muslims, that practice is not really as common as the media would have you believe.

[De Selby]

Wow.  Of all the Muslim societies, Palestinians are likely the only people that are equally or MORE secular on average than the Turks.  Lebanese close behind.   The real problem would not be family honor per se; it is probably that they are suspicious of the habits and beliefs of young men like Kyle.  If all you see of another people is the movies, you're going to have some distorted ideas....ie, like how some people only see movies about terrorists and think that about Palestinians, the same happens in reverse: Palestinians see movies like "Bachelor Party" and think that's what we're all about.

Kyle, you missed the boat.  Plain and simple.  You're moving away in a few weeks.  Enjoy the time you have and leave on good terms so you can maybe get to know each other in another place, later on.  But really, this is one of those unfortunate situations where the answer is "You should've done that yesterday; no move today is going to help you."

You'll be fine dude - I've moved every single year since the 90's.  You will find someone and make it out alright.

[vaskidmark]

As for vaskidmark, his comments seem to be based on the inexplicably garnered assumption that there will be an honor killing involved if things go awry. As well as some other assumptions that aren't true to my situation, So I am ignoring them.

OK, change "honor killing" to "her family will be pissed at her for the rest of her life."  Leave everything else, unless you want to rationalize (yep, that's what it would be) the "other assumptions that aren't true" in your situation.

By your own admission you cannot win even if you did convert.

Bottom line is, you are asking us if it's OK to get a few more days of cuddle time.  "we cuddle in bed (PG-13 stuff only)"  Talk about your adolescent romance!  Are you really asking us grown folks if it's OK to see if you can keep your hormones in check as the day of your departure forever draws nearer?  Did you really think we would not have a problem with that?  Sorry, Kyle, but BTDT.  You may truthfully be a better man than I was, but at least I was/am honest about what was going through my mind (big and little ones).

You both know the relationship is over, but you (Kyle) want to hang on - physically as well as metaphorically - as long as you can.  Ask yourself why.  What's in it for you?  What do you gain?  (My take is you want to avoid the pain of separation as long as possible, and are going to use your actual moving out of town as the "reason" for stopping seeing her, as opposed to saying the relationship has deteriorated to mere physical aspects and thus you two need to stop seeing each other now.  Unless, that is, you consider it OK for friends to grope each other for the sake of groping.

Just because her family will not strangle/behead her when they find out you two have been in bed together does not mean they will not mess with her life.  Nor does it mean the "community" will not make things bad for her.  You say it is more in line with ""Did you hear about the Miller's (obviously not her real name) daughter? She was sleeping around with an infidel!"  Holy Scarlet "W*", Batman.  ["W*" - for whore.]  (Don't like that word?  Try "fornicator," or "slut."  I'm sure Muslims have some special terms as well.)  And you are OK risking that for a few more days of PG-13 kissing and groping?

Throughout this episode I've noticed that you have not said one word about how the girl is taking this impending break-up, or what she feels about the fact that you are moving out of her life forever.  I will not comment on how selfish that makes you look.  No, I will say nothing at all about that. [/John Wayne voice]

Please feel free to ignore my advice, and to ignore me as well if that's what you want to do.  Also feel free to not come back here whining again when you find out that you hate yourself for what has happened to this girl you love because you could not give her up a few days early, when you know you are going to give her up when you move.

One final bit of advice for you, Kyle.  If you chose to ignore the advice that someone has publically offered you, do so privately.  Publically saying you are ignoring the advice you asked for opens you up to so much more commentary if things go wrong and the advice you ignored might have prevented that from happening - mainly because everybody knows you considered it and chose not to follow it.  Staying quite allows folks to wonder if you considered it at all.

stay safe.

skidmark

[El Tejon]

Advice?

O.K., sometimes it just does not work out.

Pick yourself up, brush yourself off, do it all over again.

[AJ Dual]

I would focus on the more mundane aspects of what's splitting you two apart. Such as the end of school, moving, etc. rather than the cultural gulf. That way it won't seem so much as though you have a "special problem". Thousands, millions of people get pulled apart when lives and jobs get in the way. It's just life.

I'd also consier what shootingstudent has to say. It's possible that she's playing up the family cultural and religious issues in order to let you down softly. She may feel you two do not have long-term potential. It's been MY experience that it's the women who under it all are much more pragmatic when it comes to being "in love".

Enjoy yourself with her while you can. Also consider that having had her at all is better than wondering for the rest of your life. And what it might be like with her at 6 am with a couple of screaming kids in the background with her eyes like daggers in your back as you leave the house for a job you hate.

Just sayin... 

[Fjolnirsson]

Kyle, I'll begin by saying I don't know you. I don't know your age, where you live, or really, anything about you except what is posted in this thread. So, I'm working from a clean slate. Vaskidmark is absolutely correct. Others here have said essentially the same thing, but toned down a bit to (presumably) be a bit easier on you. Facts are facts. You are risking this girls life(either physically or emotionally) for your own gratification.

You say her family "isn't the type" to engage in an honor killing. While I agree that honor killings amongst muslims are less common than the media might have us believe, you don't really know these people, do you? Other than through the rosy red glasses worn by their daughter, who seemingly is also deep in thrall to her hormones. People have a tendency to go off the deep end when they find out their little girl has been "despoiled". Honor killings, while perhaps more rare than amongst muslim families, happen here in the US in Christian households, except they aren't called that. It usually happens when drunken daddies find out their little girl is "a whore, and has been fooling around with that Johnson kid." Daddy loses control, and beats his daughter to death.

So let's not pretend you actually know these people, and let's not pretend you have deep, meaningful feelings for her. If you did, you wouldn't be asking us for advice on how to have a few more days with a girl who refuses to even be seen in public with you. Honestly, let's put this in perspective, she likes you, I am sure, or she wouldn't be risking community condemnation/honor killings/whatever to spend time with you. But neither does she have especially deep feelings about the affair, since she quite clearly has no intention of breaking with her family over it. Or perhaps, she is a pragmatist, and simply trying to have whatever fun she is able to while she can. Either way, the two of you have no future. None. Zilch.

Life is not fair. In fact, often it is the farthest thing from fair. But, if you work hard, man up and throw away all that malarky about getting your "needs" met in a meaningful way(much like I was taught in school), by the time you are 30 or so, you might meet someone special, whose circumstances are more conducive to a lasting relationship.

Or, you might end up going through life alone. But as Sindawe said, there are worse things.

Life is hard. It's harder when you're stupid. Let's hope you aren't, and you do the right thing by this girl(and yourself).

[roo_ster]

SS nailed it: too late.

Too late to do anything that could salvage the relationship, even if you were willing to do any & everything to make it work.  Which, by your own admission, you aren't.

Time to move on  & move out.