I just want to whine... life is so unfair... advice?

[AJ Dual]

Sorry it's gone like this here for you Kyle.

As far as I can tell, the only mistake you made here is not having a four-digit post-count before you opened up about your heartache... 

[Balog]

Love is not a funny feeling in your tummy. It's a choice to value another equally or more so than yourself. "I've felt really strong emotions" != "I know what real love is."

Werewolf: honoring and being loyal to a racist, misogynistic culture is a pretty good definition of stupid, in my book.

Mak: "Listen to wise counsel" is great advice. I think you picked a poor case to argue your point, though.

Sorry it's gone like this here for you Kyle.

As far as I can tell, the only mistake you made here is not having a four-digit post-count before you opened up about your heartache... 

I'd think anyone else relating a similar tale of "woe" would be greeted in a similar fashion.

[Werewolf]

Werewolf: honoring and being loyal to a racist, misogynistic culture is a pretty good definition of stupid, in my book.

Point taken: However, IMO misguided may be a better description. Stupid is permanent and incorrectable. Misguided, on the other hand, can be fixed.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I'm sorry I was unclear, I should have written "Man's desires are often...."

I did not intend to describe that situation as stupid. I intended to warn in general of listening to desires over the warnings of wise counsel.

"Who cares what they think, what do you think?" is not wise counsel when the person you are dealing with is blinded by desire and youth. (Incidentally, I'm only 30, I don't claim to be wise and experienced. I just claim to be experienced enough to know I should listen to those who ACTUALLY have experience and wisdom.)

Ah, I must've misunderstood you.

Hypothetically (i.e. not related to Kyle's situation) I would say that it is indeed possible for someone's desires to be foolish.  If he can be made to understand the foolishness of those desires that would be ideal.  If he can't, then I'd advise him to follow his desires anyway.

In other words, I think we should all do our best for ourselves.

[AJ Dual]

I'd think anyone else relating a similar tale of "woe" would be greeted in a similar fashion.

'Orly? I could...

Never mind, you'd just argue at length about how it's completely different I'm sure.

[Balog]

'Orly? I could...

Never mind, you'd just argue at length about how it's completely different I'm sure.

One last thing before I go. I admit I've posted (several) times upset about something that is my own fault. I've admitted it was my problem after I've cooled down, and moved on. But yeah, I can somewhat relate to the first post.

Also, I never heard back about the pm I sent you. I'll just assume that's a no.


I do need to apologize for my tone here. I think the basic idea is correct, but my delivery has not been as it should have been. I think I've offended some people I like and respect, and I'm sorry for that.

[zahc]

I didn't need to know anything about the religious differences to know how to respond to the OP. I didn't have to read past this point:

All throughout my college career, I have known this girl. I have always had a thing for her, and we have hung out on and off. After knowing her and being "just friends" for a couple years...

Nothing should come after the ellipsis except something like "I forgot about her entirely" or "I accidentally ran over her dog" or at the very most "We continued to be friends". In my limited life experience, if you have "had a thing" for someone for over say 30 seconds, AND known them personally, AND "hung out" with them,AND been just friends, it's a stillborn relationship. It has reached maximum point. You are past the event horizon of the friend zone. You cannot escape from the friend zone. You are currently fulfilling the role that I have heard called the "cuddle bitch". I have been a cuddle bitch before too, but I learned.  Completely disregarding the religious thing (because attempting to divine the "reason" for being caught in the friends zone is a fruitless pursuit that amounts to attempting to understand a woman's thinking, something which is impossible and you will learn, unnecessary), you should be moving on anyway.

My theory: it is possible (but by no means safe) to enter a permanent relationship with someone you have had the hots for, XOR someone who you have been friends with, XOR someone that even knows about your existence, but never any combination. If you see the event horizon soon enough, it is possible to prevent entering the friend zone. Clearly you only enter the friend zone with someone you have no interest in, since it is inescapable, and its highest office is cuddle bitch. You will save a lot of time and wasted dead-end flailing this way. I could have never met my wife if I had been caught in the friend zone of previous relationships, and I even could have gotten stuck in the friend zone with my wife. Note that due to the compressed time scale between initiation and event horizon arrival, you will either get married very fast or shack up before doing so, else the friend zone is entered, and the relationship stagnates. Also note that by no means is my theory a recipe for success, only a technique for avoiding one particular blunder. Disregard for my theory is the folly of all old people who insist that one should maintain celibacy before marriage while at the same time having a long courtship, unless the courtship consists of never meeting. Don't listen to them, they probably don't want you to get (happily) married.

[Strings]

Ummm... Zach? I was friends with Spoon for roughly a year before we started dating. This past January, we celebrated our 9th anniversary. That whole "can't escape the friend zone" thing is BS...

>#1: I have had deep feelings for this person for a long time. I didn't own up to this fact until very recently. Apparently she behaved the same way. I wonder if/how things could have worked differently if we had been more honest about  our feelings, say, a year or two ago?<

I always refer people to the SAS motto here: "Who dares wins". Hopefully, I don't need to explain it...

>#2: Unfortunately, it seems that it might be best to "stick to your own kind" after all. It is a shame, but maybe it's not worth it. It is just depressing to me to limit your options to those people who are similar enough to you in appearance/background as to not cause issue.<

As has been mentioned: if you truly mean that much to her, she would be trying to figure out a way to make it work (and discussing such with you). However, as a general rule, interfaith relationships don't work (there are exceptions, but there are such to every rule)...

>#3: This thread says a lot about the people on this board.<

What you're missing is that many of the people coming down on you have made similar mistakes in the past, and are trying to save you a bit of heartache. It sucks, but there it is. Unfortunately (and Balog already appologized for his tone), we all sometimes come across as harsh...

[jackdanson]

Either grow a set of balls and convince her to drop her racist ahole family, or grow a set of balls and stop running the risk of getting her ostracized so you can make out and feel her up.

There is no honor in your behaviour thus far, and I have no sympathy for your "plight." Whiny indeed. Grow up and act like a man.

booyah!!  And I agree.

[MicroBalrog]

Do I understand correctly that she's OK with you not being Muslim, and it's just her family that presents a problem?  If so, and if you really care about each other, then I suggest you do whatever you can to pursue the relationship. 

I don't care who you are, where you are, who you know, what your religion is, or anything else.  You absolutely cannot run your life according to the opinions and wishes of other people.  Deferring to other peoples' opinions over your own desires is probably one of life's biggest mistakes.

You two need to determine what you want, not what her family wants (or what your family wants, or what idjits on the internet think).  Once you know what you yourselves want, then go after that full speed and damn the torpedoes.

This is possibly the smartest post in this thread.

[grampster]

"To shift gears a bit... has anyone here ended up in a successful marriage with someone from a truly different background? Do tell. Lets hear some happy endings, if there are any"

Uhhh, I've been married to my first wife for 43 years.  She is honest, loyal, commited, loving in her way, dedicated, the perfect mom and wife.  I am an ahole.    Is that different enough fer ya?

Seriously, one of the things that I have learned in my 66 years is that people with years and experience have much to offer in the way of wisdom.  Youths will jump out of a foxhole and run up a hill in the face of enfilading fire.

[Antibubba]

I won't direct you back to my first post (#17, BTW), I'll just reprint it:


That said, it can be made to work--my brother is an agnostic/atheistic Jew, and my SIL is a devout Southern Baptist.  They have two kids, and I don't have the slightest idea how they do it.  Both sets of parents are very supportive, however.

If after everything we said, you want to go for it, do.  And if you do, since it starts with a "K", Kareem would be a really cool new name.   

[digitalandanalog]

I'm going to give you the Bart Simpson answer (boy that episode is really old)...

"Damned if you do, Damned if you don't."

[Vodka7]

Well threads here tend to drift and it's late, so I didn't bother reading all of the replies.

But, I dated a muslim woman with "strict" muslim parents all throughout college.  I know exactly what you're going through.  I know all the lies she juggles with you and her family to keep up appearances that no one but her believes in.  Her parents aren't retarded.  If you guys start dating, they'll figure it out.  So will their friends.  I thought Besma and I were so smart until we were at a party (friends of the family, as always, and as usual I was either in a corner on my phone or playing with the kids because they were the only ones who wouldn't constantly leave me out of the conversation by slipping back into Arabic despite everyone being perfectly fluent in English.)  So, anyway, I'm watching a few of the really young kids when one of the older ones (no older than like 12, mind you) comes up to me and goes "I know a secret about you."  "What's that?"  "You've got a girrrrrlfriend." "Oh yeah?" "Yeah, Besma!"  I mean, come on.  The twelve year old knew, and his parents weren't even really in the usual circle of people who would come to her family's parties.

And you know what?  Despite everyone knowing everything, she'll never come out and say "this is Kyle.  I know you're going to be angry, but he's my boyfriend."  You're never going to be able to leave a message on their machine and end it with "I love you."  You're never going to be able to kiss her at a party.  You'll spend a lot of time alone because she can't be seen sitting next to you all night or "people will talk."

I look back at that time of my life, and despite how happy I was then, it really makes me furious now.  I wasted years lying and hiding because of what she thought her parents would say.  (Mind you: her parents LOVED me.  I stayed at their house for a few weeks when I didn't have a place to stay, they took me to Egypt with them, and I knew all of their friends.  After we broke up and she started dating other people, Besma's mother told her that no one would ever be as good as me.)

So really, please, if she doesn't have the courage to introduce you to her parents as her boyfriend, run like hell in the other direction.  We've only got so much time here on Earth and it's insane to waste it on someone who doesn't think you're worth it.

Anyway, God, I've spent like half an hour on this because it keeps coming out so jumbled.  (And I've had to go back a few times to erase swearwords.  If I missed any, my apologies to Art's grandmother.)  Just think about what I've said.  And, when you decide not to listen to me, just remember later that I told you so

[Kyle]

Vodka:

Sheesh, you paint a nasty picture. I can easily see my situation going that way if I were to continue this. Thanks for sharing.

Makes me feel better that I have put some distance between me and her...

[BridgeRunner]

Sorry it's gone like this here for you Kyle.

As far as I can tell, the only mistake you made here is not having a four-digit post-count before you opened up about your heartache... 

I concur.

[BridgeRunner]

Happy endings to a marriage of cultural differences?

Yep.

Long story short, it can work.

It depends on what you and she are willing to endure for the sake of your relationship.

It also depends on how compatible you are in other ways.  My spouse and I have very, very, very compatible personalities.  That helps overcome the cultural/family issues.

It's hard.  For us, it's worth it.

[Hawkmoon]

As for vaskidmark, his comments seem to be based on the inexplicably garnered assumption that there will be an honor killing involved if things go awry. As well as some other assumptions that aren't true to my situation, So I am ignoring them.

As far as the possibility of her family being ok with me as a non-Muslim of any kind, its just not gonna happen. She has carefully explained that Muslim women cannot be with non-Muslim men (at least where she comes from).

...

Weird "omg honor killings roflcopter" comments aren't really helpful. Her family isnt the honor killing type. People in her family have broken the mold before. They are not killed, they are simply cut off from all but essential (occasional phone calls, funerals) contact and ostracized by the community.

Do not lightly discount the possibility of honor killing. The key point is, if it should come to that they might or might not kill you, but they would kill her, because it would be she who brought dishonor on the family.

Okay, so if her family says Muslim women can't be with non-Muslim men, and you are a non-Muslim man ... get the hell out of her life and get on with yours. That's about as constructive as I can make it. And I speak from a lot of years dealing with failed/aborted relationships.

[seeker_two]

Do not lightly discount the possibility of honor killing. The key point is, if it should come to that they might or might not kill you, but they would kill her, because it would be she who brought dishonor on the family.

Well....you could always be preemptive and take them out first......but that might create some awkward moments during the major holidays......





j/k, of course.....

[Jamisjockey]

I'm thinking this one is done.  If anyone has anymore helpful things to say to Kyle, PM him.