Author Topic: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.  (Read 13441 times)

AJ Dual

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I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« on: May 23, 2011, 01:45:44 AM »
National Geographic Channel: When Aliens Attack

Bullet points:

- Aliens invade. Looks just like the beginning of ID4.
- Fighters and mecha destroy the cities.
- Earth military destroyed within a day.
- Nukes do nothing. When crossing interstellar space, dust grains will impact with the power of nukes or worse.
- DoD/Think-tank plans account for this, and urge the remainder to scatter to form resistance cells. 70% plus of humanity dead in the first week.
- Harvesters rove the landscape sucking up trees, because water and minerals are everywhere in space.... Chlorophyll and Protein are not.
- Survivors/resistance start by strapping bombs to trees about to be sucked up. Blow up a few machines.
- Sick survivors try to kamikaze by letting themselves be sucked up to see if they can infect the aliens by letting themselves be sucked up.
- Nothing happens when the sick are sucked up... UREKA, They're (almost?) all robots! Harvesting "bio-energy".  ;/
- Resistance cells make weather balloon suicide runs at the city-ships.  ;/ ;/
- They run around inside and blow up enough that the AI or aliens on the mother ship in orbit "do the math" and decide to move on.  ;/ ;/ ;/

 :P

Gee, even if you accept all the above, wouldn't such an amoral species decide to asteroid the Earth as they depart to ensure Humanity does not recover and someday come after them?

I've wracked my brain on this question for years. There's really only one reason to go to war with an intelligent species. To destroy them out of a rather brutal and "better safe than sorry" application of game-theory-like logic. Even this is a dicey prospect. If you don't account for exponential technological growth/reinforcement, by the time you detect a species (radio/reverse SETI etc.) once  you got there, they might be at your level, maybe have even exceeded your tech-level.

If you've mastered the technology to cross interstellar space, you've mastered so much, there's really nothing worth taking from some other species, even the biological. The only thing you can take from them is their ability to exist. It'll always be cheaper to stay home, or mine/build/grow what you need somewhere closer, or with better available energy sources and raw materials.

Feel free to argue.  =D
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Phyphor

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2011, 02:27:49 AM »
Yea, from what I understand, you can always get CHON from the rocks and ice chunks in the Oort cloud.  (CHON = Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen - all the same stuff you'd need for life here, )

Plus, if all the aliens/machines want is energy, it'd be FAR easier to gather it from gas giants and such in the form of hydrogen.  Why risk the natives getting pissed and fighting back?

That show sounds like someone has been reading entirely too many Berserker stories, IMO.
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birdman

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2011, 06:57:16 AM »
Yea, from what I understand, you can always get CHON from the rocks and ice chunks in the Oort cloud.  (CHON = Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen - all the same stuff you'd need for life here, )

Plus, if all the aliens/machines want is energy, it'd be FAR easier to gather it from gas giants and such in the form of hydrogen.  Why risk the natives getting pissed and fighting back?

That show sounds like someone has been reading entirely too many Berserker stories, IMO.


100% agree.  I think the best course of action is what I call Kirk-Hicks.  If the aliens are hot (especially if effectively human, odd foreheads or skin color acceptable) bang them, if not, nuke/asteroid them from orbit.

And yes, that show way to similar to the berserker and/or star wars "world devastator" genre

IMHO our contact with aliens is likely going to be one of three ways:
1. Asteroids (think Armaggedon, but no Bruce Willis, and the rocks show up once a day)
2. Near-c impactor(s)--either one big one (say 10-20m in diameter), or about a few hundred tons of sand at 0.99+ c (like #1, but the planet is effectively turned to rubble--after all, if you can get a ship up to near-c, just fire your "rock" before you start slowing down and follow it in)
3. Super sophisticated "indistinguishable from magic" monolith/Rama types roaming, observing, etc

MicroBalrog

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2011, 07:17:38 AM »
Quote
There's really only one reason to go to war with an intelligent species

You make the assumption people only go to war for 'rational' reasons.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2011, 07:40:31 AM »
IMHO our contact with aliens is likely going to be one of three ways:
1. Asteroids (think Armaggedon, but no Bruce Willis, and the rocks show up once a day)
2. Near-c impactor(s)--either one big one (say 10-20m in diameter), or about a few hundred tons of sand at 0.99+ c (like #1, but the planet is effectively turned to rubble--after all, if you can get a ship up to near-c, just fire your "rock" before you start slowing down and follow it in)
3. Super sophisticated "indistinguishable from magic" monolith/Rama types roaming, observing, etc


4. They come to take advantage of our social safety net.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2011, 08:26:30 AM »
You make the assumption people only go to war for 'rational' reasons.

Ayup. They may decide they don't like us.  Or our religious choices.  Hell, they may decide to convert us all to thier religion.  How many times have euorpeans converted the barbarian masses in the past?


4. They come to take advantage of our social safety net.

Racist.  They're just here for the jobs Humans won't do.
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makattak

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2011, 08:46:25 AM »
Racist. Speciesist. They're just here for the jobs Humans won't do.

FTFY.
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So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

birdman

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2011, 10:09:35 AM »
Racist.  Carbonist. They're just here for the jobs Humans won't do.

FIFY-both

birdman

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2011, 10:17:40 AM »
There's really only one reason to go to war with an intelligent species

Or you don't consider their intelligence to be equal.

Even then, there are other reasons besides "better safe than sorry" including:
1. They have planet you want (if you want to expand population and don't like living in orbital habs)
2. They have resources you want (note, actinides/lanthanides are found more readily on planets than asteroids)
3. It's less energy intensive/easier to harvest complex chemicals found naturally than synthesize (in some cases) even if you have access to CHON from other places--even if you can master interstellar flight (I'm thinking ark ship, not FTL, so energy costs can dominate
4. You want a better zoo on your home world, and the humans started fighting when you borrowed a few

AJ Dual

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2011, 10:24:22 AM »
You make the assumption people only go to war for 'rational' reasons.

When one of our own terrestrial non-rational nation-states/cultures shows signs of creating a manned space program that can go even as far as the moon, I'll consider the point.  =)

Reducing any debate about aliens really comes down to the Fermi Paradox. Namely: "Where are they?"

If the Drake Equation's variables in the Milky way are such that 2-3 intelligent tool-using species exist at any given time out of (what's the latest count? 400 Billion stars?), I'd think that over billions of years, the odds are in favor of at least one alien species having "made it". And with exponential growth or even replicating technology like Von Neumann probes that build copies from local materials, one such species should have covered the galaxy by now with some sort of indication of their presence.

So this leaves you with a few possible outcomes.

- Intelligent tool using life is really rare. So rare that they don't show up even on cosmological timescales. Humanity is alone or at least, effectively so.

- They have covered the galaxy, we just haven't seen the evidence of it yet. Perhaps even misinterpreting some of the evidence as "natural phenomena".

- Something else is at work. Something happens to advanced species that survive that steers them into paradigms of existence we have not considered, or do not yet have the tools to consider.

Or you don't consider their intelligence to be equal.

Even then, there are other reasons besides "better safe than sorry" including:
1. They have planet you want (if you want to expand population and don't like living in orbital habs)
2. They have resources you want (note, actinides/lanthanides are found more readily on planets than asteroids)
3. It's less energy intensive/easier to harvest complex chemicals found naturally than synthesize (in some cases) even if you have access to CHON from other places--even if you can master interstellar flight (I'm thinking ark ship, not FTL, so energy costs can dominate
4. You want a better zoo on your home world, and the humans started fighting when you borrowed a few

1. Terraforming/alienforming is easier/more economical against the time and energy expenditure of interstellar travel. Especially in your slow-ark scenario that makes energy costs dominate.
2. I think that even if higher heavy metal/transuranics concentrations are in terrestrial worlds, there'll always be one that's more convenient (statistically speaking) that you can just KEW then mine it like asteroids. So even if they do attack/mine Earth, it's still just a scenario where they blow us up, rather than "invade" in a way that can be fought.
3. Since all the chemical reactions we know of found in nature are either powered by the energy percentage of sunlight intercepted by Earth's surface, or the geothermal energy of mid-oceanic ridges. I guess I could see sampling missions for compounds you hadn't been able to imagine, but I find it unlikely that such an advanced species couldn't imagine/simulate most any possible chemistry through advanced computing and evolutionary algorithms, etc. And the energy requirements of interstellar travel, even in slow-arks, start running up against Earth's entire solar energy influx, or our geothermal output.
4. I see this as the one remotely possible scenario that you've raised. However, I'd see it more as a sample collection mission before KEW'ing Earth on my evil game-theory hypothesis of "better safe than sorry".

* The better safe than sorry extermination theory has it's own problems though. Going around the Galaxy exterminating other species always runs the risk an even more advanced species is watching, and now you've given them REALLY good reason to wipe you out.

So, it's possible that if the "better safe than sorry" paradigm does dominate, then it may just mean everybody hides, because statistically speaking, stamping out other races is even more dangerous than existing and being detected through technological activity.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 10:42:19 AM by AJ Dual »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2011, 10:40:06 AM »
- They have covered the galaxy, we just haven't seen the evidence of it yet. Perhaps even misinterpreting some of the evidence as "natural phenomena".

You think they might be out there, stretching out the cosmos, and smushing it back together?  :lol:
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AJ Dual

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2011, 10:43:01 AM »
You think they might be out there, stretching out the cosmos, and smushing it back together?  :lol:

In that case, burning bushes and virgin births are just an extension of SETI.  [tinfoil]
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Ron

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2011, 11:06:22 AM »
We only are seeing an obscured image in a mirror, eventually we'll see clearly.

Currently we only know in part, eventually we'll know fully.

Never mind me, just wanted to chime in and say this is a good thread :)
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TommyGunn

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2011, 11:30:11 AM »
KLAATU BARADA NIKTU!

Okay, we're safe now, it's all over!   =D

Taped the show, haven't watched it yet.  Actually it does sound interesting.  No matter who does an "aliens invade" theme it will always be a "human oriented" program, hence this show's reputed similarity to existing movies in this genre.  
I suspect that real aliens might be so different that invasion might not even make real sense to them.
If they were humanoid they might have similar motives to our own; conquest.
In NBC's "The Event," human-like aliens want our planet because their sun is about to destroy their own planet.  They seem relatively benign until they get desperate.
If the series gets renewed, we may find out what happens .....
H.G. Wells' aliens got wiped out by germs.
David Vincents' aliens in "The Invaders" apparantly continued ad infinititum, as the series was cancelled after its second year.
Fox Mulder is still chasing them thirty years later in "The X Files."

Humans have a remarkably consistant imagination ..... [tinfoil]


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grampster

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2011, 11:37:19 AM »
Aliens are here already.  The live and work in Washington DC and state capitals.
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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2011, 11:38:11 AM »
Aliens are here already.  The live and work in Washington DC and state capitals.

Those are ZOMBIES.  Don't you know the difference? ? ? [tinfoil]
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AJ Dual

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2011, 11:40:18 AM »
Actually in "The Event" they've already pretty much said they're from earth. They're either a parallel hominid species that achieved a technological society first, or are the "lost civilization of Atlantis" or some similar trope. They've been back exploring for eons now, which is why the mysterious evil rich guy who is the "watcher" knew of them from cave paintings and the old scrolls etc.

I was hoping they actually were alien, but were inhabiting human-esque bodies for their contact/exploration, and their people, about to come pouring out of the portal in low orbit would be cephalapods or something.

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TommyGunn

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2011, 11:46:36 AM »
Maybe they were "here" 10,000 years ago but I think their actual identity as either "aliens" or "humans" has yet to be completly resolved.  Just my two cents.  
They seem very similar to us genetically.
OTOH I wonder how close Mr. Spock's DNA would be to humans, given his over-all resemblance to H. Sapiens.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 12:15:34 PM by TommyGunn »
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makattak

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2011, 11:49:31 AM »
OTOH I wonder how close Mr. Spock's DNA would be to humans, given his over-all resemblance to H. Sapiens.

I'd say especially close as Mr. Spock is half human and half Vulcan.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

AZRedhawk44

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2011, 11:53:29 AM »
Quote
And with exponential growth or even replicating technology like Von Neumann probes that build copies from local materials, one such species should have covered the galaxy by now with some sort of indication of their presence.

Perhaps DNA is your "replicating technology like Von Neumann probes."

 [popcorn]
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AJ Dual

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2011, 01:22:28 PM »
Perhaps DNA is your "replicating technology like Von Neumann probes."

 [popcorn]

Since there's evidence that Earth/Martian meteor impact ejecta has carried bacteria back and forth between both planets, this is not out of the realm of possibility. And it is actually a working theory by some.

I think the interstellar angle of it though is a bit trickier. Unless the initial seeding is done through some sort of technology. Waiting on contaminated meteor pieces to get lucky random ejections from a given star system, then reach another star system, then reach a habitable/infectable planet runs into a really steep statistical wall.

It's a big Universe, so it's impossible to say it hasn't happened a few times between some close star systems a few light years apart if everything lined up "just so". However I don't think such a "system" would make meaningful progress over any cosmological timescales.

So if systems were intentionally seeded, you'd want them to evolve tool using sapients/sentients who'd then pick up the program themselves.

While the idea things got started on Mars because it was smaller and cooler before Earth was finished forming is very interesting, it also might as well just be Earth in terms of interstellar distances and timescales.
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birdman

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2011, 01:29:15 PM »
When one of our own terrestrial non-rational nation-states/cultures shows signs of creating a manned space program that can go even as far as the moon, I'll consider the point.  =)

Reducing any debate about aliens really comes down to the Fermi Paradox. Namely: "Where are they?"

If the Drake Equation's variables in the Milky way are such that 2-3 intelligent tool-using species exist at any given time out of (what's the latest count? 400 Billion stars?), I'd think that over billions of years, the odds are in favor of at least one alien species having "made it". And with exponential growth or even replicating technology like Von Neumann probes that build copies from local materials, one such species should have covered the galaxy by now with some sort of indication of their presence.

So this leaves you with a few possible outcomes.

- Intelligent tool using life is really rare. So rare that they don't show up even on cosmological timescales. Humanity is alone or at least, effectively so.

- They have covered the galaxy, we just haven't seen the evidence of it yet. Perhaps even misinterpreting some of the evidence as "natural phenomena".

- Something else is at work. Something happens to advanced species that survive that steers them into paradigms of existence we have not considered, or do not yet have the tools to consider.

1. Terraforming/alienforming is easier/more economical against the time and energy expenditure of interstellar travel. Especially in your slow-ark scenario that makes energy costs dominate.
2. I think that even if higher heavy metal/transuranics concentrations are in terrestrial worlds, there'll always be one that's more convenient (statistically speaking) that you can just KEW then mine it like asteroids. So even if they do attack/mine Earth, it's still just a scenario where they blow us up, rather than "invade" in a way that can be fought.
3. Since all the chemical reactions we know of found in nature are either powered by the energy percentage of sunlight intercepted by Earth's surface, or the geothermal energy of mid-oceanic ridges. I guess I could see sampling missions for compounds you hadn't been able to imagine, but I find it unlikely that such an advanced species couldn't imagine/simulate most any possible chemistry through advanced computing and evolutionary algorithms, etc. And the energy requirements of interstellar travel, even in slow-arks, start running up against Earth's entire solar energy influx, or our geothermal output.
4. I see this as the one remotely possible scenario that you've raised. However, I'd see it more as a sample collection mission before KEW'ing Earth on my evil game-theory hypothesis of "better safe than sorry".

* The better safe than sorry extermination theory has it's own problems though. Going around the Galaxy exterminating other species always runs the risk an even more advanced species is watching, and now you've given them REALLY good reason to wipe you out.

So, it's possible that if the "better safe than sorry" paradigm does dominate, then it may just mean everybody hides, because statistically speaking, stamping out other races is even more dangerous than existing and being detected through technological activity.

All of your responses to my 4 points are valid, but you asked for reasons aliens would fight earth, other then "better safe than sorry", I proposed 4, and in 3 of 4, the result is aliens attacking earth.

I agree with your assessments, but your own assessments illustrate others reasons they would fight... Did we lose track of the original premise?

AJ Dual

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2011, 01:55:43 PM »
No, just hashing this out. This is Devil's Advocate back and forth/give-n-take. I propose stuff, people shoot it down or refine it, they propose things, I do the same.

This is like asteroid impact, the odds are low, but the compensating factor is that the stakes are oh so very high.

The one main failure I see in most alien invasion movie/TV tropes is that the tech level is only (other than the magnitude of the challenge of interstellar travel) only a few hundred years in excess of our own.

I guess the good news is that a few hundred years might as well be a second on cosmological timescales, so either we'll have destroyed ourselves, or will be more than a match for the invaders.

Were we really invaded though, (besides the better safe than sorry factor) I think it would be more an analogy of how we make "war" on ants by digging the foundation for a building, or we make "war" on mice, by sending through the first bulldozer to make a road.
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zxcvbob

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2011, 02:17:24 PM »
Quote
There's really only one reason to go to war with an intelligent species
To steal their bacon.
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AJ Dual

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2011, 02:20:01 PM »
Better do a sample mission first.

What if all their bacon is made from left handed proteins, and they use Cadmium Chloride to cure it?  [tinfoil]
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