Author Topic: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.  (Read 13440 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2011, 02:23:16 PM »
Quote
When one of our own terrestrial non-rational nation-states/cultures shows signs of creating a manned space program that can go even as far as the moon, I'll consider the point.  smiley

You are assuming that 'sometimes acts for non-rational reasons' equals 'stupid' or 'insane'.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2011, 02:42:15 PM »
You are all nerds.
 ;/
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makattak

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2011, 02:47:21 PM »
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Jamisjockey

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2011, 02:50:05 PM »
You are all nerds.
 ;/


And yet you still hang around us.....huh.....  :laugh:
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AJ Dual

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2011, 03:13:39 PM »
You are assuming that 'sometimes acts for non-rational reasons' equals 'stupid' or 'insane'.

I'm an unapologetic culturalist. Fairly or not, I tend to find cultures and schools of thought that do not at least loosely follow the basic tenants of post-enlightenment Western Civilization, and certain schools of far-Eastern Asian philosophy to be stupid, inferior, or insane.

Actually, to that I'll add 'incompetent' too.

You like to argue that point yourself here, when you point out Palestinians/Hamas/Hezbollah lobbing mortars and kyatusha's into Israel and being unable to hit the broad side of an, er... kibbutz.

Obviously, these are not straight lines, just general trends. Europe had it's Dark Ages, and at one point the Islamic Middle East was the paragon of scientific enlightenment, and what passed for tolerant of diversity too. These days... not so much.

Although more seriously, arguing what's rational for an alien species that might now be entirely post biological, or evolved from a completely different phylum of life, (not sexual mammals) or a phylum that does not even have a remote counterpart on Earth, could have a completely incomprehensible outlook on things, and probably is the source of the most specious speculation on the entire topic I or anyone might propose.

The one thing we can quantify though are things like distance, time, mass, energy etc. astronomical constants and distributions of things like stars and planets, and physics to the best of our knowledge.

One can always state that new discoveries will be made, or are possible, however I personally suspect that we understand the vast majority of the rules of physics/the Universe, and are close to getting the rest. (quantum gravity/superunification etc.) IMO, the long challenge ahead is going to be the engineering to actually put them to use.

So like the SETI scientists who claim (probably correctly) that what we will have in common with aliens is mathematics and physics and can be a foundation for communication, we can also make reasonable guesses about their capabilities, and possibly some motives in regards to energy and resources they may want or need.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 03:28:29 PM by AJ Dual »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2011, 03:21:28 PM »
To steal their bacon.

Then, to be safe, we all eat kosher. World-wide. No bacon anywhere, that will keep us safe.

On the flip side, let us all hope that the alien invaders are not militant circumcisionists.
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Phyphor

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2011, 03:23:02 PM »
Yea, for all we know, they could want to glass the planet simply because they're bored.  As Gregory Benford put it in a couple of his novels, "The thing about aliens is: They're alien!"
Totally different frame of reference.   Us trying to figure their motives might be like your dog trying to figure out why you're on your computer browsing APS.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2011, 03:24:30 PM »
And yet you still hang around us.....huh.....  :laugh:

I question my sanity. Especially after actually reading all those posts...  :facepalm:
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MicroBalrog

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2011, 03:25:00 PM »
Consider that even more 'advanced' societies also often do 'irrational' things.

The War on Drugs, for example. :)
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2011, 03:27:10 PM »

The one main failure I see in most alien invasion movie/TV tropes is that the tech level is only (other than the magnitude of the challenge of interstellar travel) only a few hundred years in excess of our own.




A few hundred years?

In a few hundred years, we'll be lucky to be accomplishing what Arthur C Clarke suggested in 2001.  We'll be lucky if we have a fully colonized lunar base with thousands of people and a reasonable support infrastructure.  We'll be lucky if we have manned interplanetary spacecraft capable of generating gravity via centripetal force.  We'll be lucky of those spacecraft have facilities for self sustainability in regards to food production and waste management.  We'll be lucky if those spacecraft are capable of even 1% of c-travel (50k-mph is only about 14 miles per second, light speed is 186,000 miles per second... one percent would be 1860 miles per second... we need to be able to travel 132x faster than we can now to achieve 1% of light speed).  We'll be lucky to have a deep space mining or factory industry.

The tech from the new V series is thousands of years advanced from us.

The tech from BSG is thousands of years advanced from us (FTL drive is essentially creating a wormhole).

Star Trek, ignoring the Warp Drive tech, is a good 500 years away.

The Fithp from Footfall were the least advanced alien species conqueror I think I've ever heard of in sci-fi.  
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birdman

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2011, 03:34:02 PM »
No, just hashing this out. This is Devil's Advocate back and forth/give-n-take. I propose stuff, people shoot it down or refine it, they propose things, I do the same.

This is like asteroid impact, the odds are low, but the compensating factor is that the stakes are oh so very high.

The one main failure I see in most alien invasion movie/TV tropes is that the tech level is only (other than the magnitude of the challenge of interstellar travel) only a few hundred years in excess of our own.

I guess the good news is that a few hundred years might as well be a second on cosmological timescales, so either we'll have destroyed ourselves, or will be more than a match for the invaders.

Were we really invaded though, (besides the better safe than sorry factor) I think it would be more an analogy of how we make "war" on ants by digging the foundation for a building, or we make "war" on mice, by sending through the first bulldozer to make a road.


I absolutely agree...(my original indistinguishable from magic clarke-ism quote)...but it makes for bad movies/tv (except for the Clarke movies/books...odd?).  My personal belief aligns similarly, if they come here, expect more monolith, less ID4...if we go there, expect more slime-mold and rodents, less "hot alien with weird foreheads", panspermania be damned!  The biggest problem with the drake equation is it's human-centricity, in terms of the last few terms.  Had the K-T event not happened...it's likely small-to-medium dinosaurs would be the intelligent, dominant form of life here, but considering complex animals have only existed for less than 5-10% of our planet's life, and intelligence (pack hunters, etc) for less than a quarter of that, and cognitive intelligence for less than 1-2% of that, encountering something more advanced than primitive animals is a slim chance.  On the other hand, humans have had fire and tools for about one-millionth of the planet's life, and complex tools for even less.  Imagine how we would look to cavemen...encountering an alien population merely one-one millionth of it's planet's life further along is the difference between arrowheads and fire to mini guns, aircraft and lasers, or the difference between the latter and...what? Considering the singularity (in terms of computing, genetic engineering, nano tech, etc) is less than 100 years away...I say I hope we don't meet aliens HERE, because it would likely bode poorly for us.  

AJ Dual

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2011, 03:38:57 PM »
A few hundred years?

In a few hundred years, we'll be lucky to be accomplishing what Arthur C Clarke suggested in 2001.  We'll be lucky if we have a fully colonized lunar base with thousands of people and a reasonable support infrastructure.  We'll be lucky if we have manned interplanetary spacecraft capable of generating gravity via centripetal force.  We'll be lucky of those spacecraft have facilities for self sustainability in regards to food production and waste management.  We'll be lucky if those spacecraft are capable of even 1% of c-travel (50k-mph is only about 14 miles per second, light speed is 186,000 miles per second... one percent would be 1860 miles per second... we need to be able to travel 132x faster than we can now to achieve 1% of light speed).  We'll be lucky to have a deep space mining or factory industry.

The tech from the new V series is thousands of years advanced from us.

The tech from BSG is thousands of years advanced from us (FTL drive is essentially creating a wormhole).

Star Trek, ignoring the Warp Drive tech, is a good 500 years away.

The Fithp from Footfall were the least advanced alien species conqueror I think I've ever heard of in sci-fi.  

Most of these are economic and political stagnation issues, not ones of actual knowledge or capability. At least in terms of interplanetary travel and bases within our Solar System. If the desire to do so existed, we'd be nicely comparable to a 2001 level of tech as depicted in the movie. (HAL excepted, OTOH, I bet the hardware HAL runs on as imagined, in terms of pure flops per second, is inferior to the best systems of today...)

I also believe in accelerating technological progress. How the computer drives almost all our other advancements in biology, chemistry, materials science, astronomy, space flight etc. and the disciplines can reinforce one another.

If the ever increasing pace of change does not destroy a civilization, what you're thinking of as 500 or 1000 years of tech is quite possibly IMO, more like 50 to 100. I'm not sure humanity even will even experience a "Star Trek"-like phase.

The problem is not our tech, but the will to apply that tech to space exploration, exploitation, and colonization. If the economic and political will to do so does not exist, they won't happen.

OTOH, much like the spread of computer technology, perhaps as other technologies follow and flow down to the end-user, or business, we'll see an acceleration of the ability of those who want to go, to actually go.

I Had the K-T event not happened...it's likely small-to-medium dinosaurs would be the intelligent, dominant form of life here, but considering complex animals have only existed for less than 5-10% of our planet's life, and intelligence (pack hunters, etc) for less than a quarter of that, and cognitive intelligence for less than 1-2% of that, encountering something more advanced than primitive animals is a slim chance.  On the other hand, humans have had fire and tools for about one-millionth of the planet's life, and complex tools for even less.  Imagine how we would look to cavemen...encountering an alien population merely one-one millionth of it's planet's life further along is the difference between arrowheads and fire to mini guns, aircraft and lasers, or the difference between the latter and...what? Considering the singularity (in terms of computing, genetic engineering, nano tech, etc) is less than 100 years away...I say I hope we don't meet aliens HERE, because it would likely bode poorly for us.  

That is a major hole in the Drake Equation. And one answer we'll never get from the likes of Mars or Europa (unless we find sentient fish under the ice or whatever..)

The late KT dinosaurs seemed to be trending towards agile bigger brained ostrich/emu like predators, but there's no real evidence that they'd ever develop into sentient/sapient tool users. Looking at the most successful phylum, the arthropods would argue against intelligence being some kind of "goal" or "end game" of evolution at all.

Unfortunately for us, right here, and right now, the only way to get these answers, and defend ourselves if need be is to "hang on" and grow as a species.

Although under this all, that's my main gut feeling as to why the Universe is so "quiet". Technological Singularities take every species off the table. Either through extinction when they're managed badly or not at all, or even when successful, off to other paradigms where exploration, colonization, much less conquest/war make no sense and are just irrelevant.

If you've seen that one episode of ST:TNG, my worry is that post-singularity life/intelligence is that it's like the visual analogy of the bored "Q" lounging about in a parlor. One reading a thick book titled "The Old", one reading a disappointingly thin, and rather vapid looking magazine titled "The New", and another playing billiards with balls that upon closer inspection are planets.  :P
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 03:53:03 PM by AJ Dual »
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birdman

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2011, 03:47:16 PM »
A few hundred years?

In a few hundred years, we'll be lucky to be accomplishing what Arthur C Clarke suggested in 2001.  We'll be lucky if we have a fully colonized lunar base with thousands of people and a reasonable support infrastructure.  We'll be lucky if we have manned interplanetary spacecraft capable of generating gravity via centripetal force.  We'll be lucky of those spacecraft have facilities for self sustainability in regards to food production and waste management.  We'll be lucky if those spacecraft are capable of even 1% of c-travel (50k-mph is only about 14 miles per second, light speed is 186,000 miles per second... one percent would be 1860 miles per second... we need to be able to travel 132x faster than we can now to achieve 1% of light speed).  We'll be lucky to have a deep space mining or factory industry.

The tech from the new V series is thousands of years advanced from us.

The tech from BSG is thousands of years advanced from us (FTL drive is essentially creating a wormhole).

Star Trek, ignoring the Warp Drive tech, is a good 500 years away.

The Fithp from Footfall were the least advanced alien species conqueror I think I've ever heard of in sci-fi.  

I disagree, both 2001 and 2010 relied on technology well in hand in the 70's, the reasons for our limited tech progress since then is political rather than technological.  The areas where advancement is significant is in materials (we have made nearly an order of magnitude improvement across the board in most material parameters since the sixties), and computing--just based on near term scaling within the currently understood physical limits, single installation computing will exceed 1 HBE (human brain equivalent) within 10 years, and with current technology 100-1000 HBE single installs are possible within 30, let alone with any significant paradigm shifts--so predicting technology levels out more than 50 years is effectively impossible.  It wouldn't take much for BSG level to occur within 100 years, and trek-level within 200--with the exception of the FTL parts (and the transporter in trek) we are well on track in every other tech area in either example, specifically: energy storage densities, power management devices (did you know IGBT switches capable of handling 10 MW can fit in your hand?  That's about 5 orders of magnitude improvement in 60 years...on a lowly switch!), computing, materials (nanotube lengths have been increasing better than 2 orders of magnitude per decade or better), and others.  But most of these are cost limited due to limited applicability or technological immaturity.  As a good example, with modern composites (t1000gb) and modern superconductors (bscco), superconducting energy storage is reaching levels of 5-10% of explosives, and thin films have shown an order of magnitude better than that.  

However, with the current social/political trends around...I think your timeframes are likely accurate due to intervening collapse/dark age (though shorter than the last dark age, and more technologically recoverable), but again, that's political, not technological...so sad :(

birdman

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2011, 03:48:12 PM »
Wow, were you reading my brain while I was typing?

AJ Dual

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« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 04:00:49 PM by AJ Dual »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2011, 04:35:58 PM »
Quote
In a few hundred years, we'll be lucky to be accomplishing what Arthur C Clarke suggested in 2001.

We already have the technology to do better. It's called Orion.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2011, 04:46:48 PM »


Yes, and your point is?

This smiley needs to be smited with a banschwerk.  Creepy.   [ar15] 
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AJ Dual

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2011, 04:53:08 PM »
The unibrow will not stop, ever.

Resistance is futile.

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birdman

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2011, 05:01:05 PM »
We already have the technology to do better. It's called Orion.

In terms of performance for interstellar, MPD or VASIMIR like engines with advanced reactors are better than Orion (that's why we were baselining them for TAU and interstellar precursor...actually my reactor system design for IP still holds the record for power to weight for a space nuclear power system design-->300W/kg :) ) (HEU fueled heat-pipe reactor with Cesium-REMHD power conversion)

Orion is best when you have total delta-V below 100-200 kps and need to get there in a hurry, but for 500+ kps, you need a higher Isp system.

AJ Dual

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2011, 05:29:27 PM »
My main concern for any fission based interstellar mission is the longevity of the half-life of the fuels in question.

OTOH, spent reactor products could be injected into the reaction jet's stream maybe? Even if they're not Uranium anymore, what... Strontium and Tellurium? they'd up the Isp?

Also, what's the reaction mass for most VASIMR designs? Hydrogen? Can something heavier that will also give better Isp be used? I wonder about Iron, being the cheapest/heaviest/common material that could be found in space from asteroids etc.

And I really hate the waste heat most any design produces. (a lotta good railing against thermodynamics will do) The radiator requirements get really high at any significant power levels. Despite how efficient it is, I think even VASIMR gets some inductive heating of the components, which, if we don't have some breakthrough in superconductors, are going to need to be kept cold.

The magnetic fields will be a PITA too, I guess you could get four engines (or some multiple of 2 or 4?) and stack them with alternating polarity so they cancel each other out. Although... Maybe get the VASIMR's out on stalks in a pulling design, and the fields could actually shield the crew compartment, or sensitive electronics, at least from charged particles..
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birdman

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2011, 05:48:40 PM »
For ISP, you want the lowest atomic weight exhaust possible (thus highest velocity), VASIMIR optimizes it's exhaust velocity for best efficiency, but adding anything to the exhaust tends to lower the ISP...separating the fission products is difficult, and adds mass, so for unmanned, it's not needed.  The best for a manned system is a gas core nuclear, so you don't have to worry about fission product poisoning of your fuel reactivity (I solved the startup problem when I was working at LANL)... They are good for delta-v's in the 300kps range or so, but again, it's mainly (like 99.99%) hydrogen exhaust.  They just don't scale small and for IP, we were looking for a total probe mass of 100 tons or so.  Once you get in the 1000ton or bigger range, gas core nuclear is the way to go...multi-GW power, 3-30k seconds ISP, and a crap-ton (aerospace term) of thrust, so you don't need to burn forever (IP had a burn time of years!)

I'd like to discuss more another time, I'm crunching on a big presentation for a design review this week (I've worked on these systems for real for NASA, LANL, Boeing, etc in advanced technology programs, but if you want a good start, google heat pipe power system or "SAFE reactor NASA", JIMO, thousand-AU mission, interstellar precursor mission, gas core nuclear rocket, and VASIMIR (the inventor of that and I shared a thesis advisor)

AJ Dual

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2011, 05:54:44 PM »
Ah, never mind, I had Isp and thrust reversed in my head or whatever.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2011, 06:00:27 PM »
Isn't the issue with VASIMIR that it generates insufficient thrust to get out of orbit (not entirely unlike solar sails, which are only workable once boosted out of orbit).

With ORION, it boosts out of orbit with sadistical ease, and frankly it doesn't need to accelerate much after it gets up to speed.
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birdman

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2011, 06:14:11 PM »
Isn't the issue with VASIMIR that it generates insufficient thrust to get out of orbit (not entirely unlike solar sails, which are only workable once boosted out of orbit).

With ORION, it boosts out of orbit with sadistical ease, and frankly it doesn't need to accelerate much after it gets up to speed.

You can break orbit with any level of thrust (spiral out), it's just less efficient than an impulsive transfer.  The issue is one of maximum possible velocity...not only do modern npconcepts have higher ISP, but they can have better mass ratios (due to the fact that fuel tanks are more efficient at holding fuel than fuel in the form of bombs, and the lower structural mass by eliminating the impulse loads and pusher plate), yielding still higher velocity.  Like I said, if you want 100kps in a day, Orion, if you want it in 10 days, and keep it up for 100+, gas core, if you want it in 100, but then keep it up for 10 years, VASIMIR/mpd with a reactor.  If you are going somewhere other than the moon, gas core will haul more, if you are going interstellar, only the latter can get you the delta-v. 

MicroBalrog

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Re: I can't believe I spent two hours watching this tripe.
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2011, 06:17:39 PM »
Help me here.

I thought there is no 'top speed' in vacuum?

In other terms, if I accelerated the spacecraft to the point of breaking orbit, wouldn't it keep going at the same speed until it came under the influence of an outside force?
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