Propane vs Kerosene vs ???: Car Camping & SHTF (Bug-In)

[K Frame]

"There are always candles and oil lamps powered by whale fat."

I think I'll just harpoon you. You should provide some low to moderate low grade blubber...

Anyone ever hear of a good American campfire, fueled by good American grown wood? Or have the Chinese cornered that market these days, too?


How much stink to the kerosene pressure lanterns create? I know the stoves are kind of smelly, but I've never worked with one of the lanterns.

[RoadKingLarry]

What's the difference between white gas and unleaded gasoline?

"white gas" is an old term from the days of leaded gasoline. It was more or less essentially un-leaded gasoline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_gas

As for bug-in contingencies, I like multiple redundancies. I have propane, dual fuel appliances, propane adapters for dual fuel items, kerosene lanterns, oil lamps, wood/charcoal burning grill and smoker and the smoker could serve as an oven in a pinch. I have done some light baking in it.

[mtnbkr]

Anyone ever hear of a good American campfire, fueled by good American grown wood? Or have the Chinese cornered that market these days, too?

That works well for heating and lighting a small space outside.  It isn't so hot for use inside tents (wood stoves excepted) or cooking some things.  There's also the issue of burn bans.  I've had burn bans put the kibosh on campfires multiple times.  Besides, we're also talking about sheltering in place (ie bug in).  A campfire isn't really useful.

How much stink to the kerosene pressure lanterns create? I know the stoves are kind of smelly, but I've never worked with one of the lanterns.

A friend of mine has a Petromax lantern.  It will burn kerosene, but I don't recall if he ever tried that.  I don't recommend them though.  They're expensive, beautiful, noisy pieces of junk.  I suspect a pressurized lantern won't stink once it's up to proper operating temps.  A white gas lantern doesn't have any scent at all, even though white gas itself does.

If I ever come across a Coleman kerosene lantern for a good price, I may give it a try.  Unfortunately, most tend to run $100+ and I already have a "dual fuel" lantern.

Chris

[K Frame]

"It isn't so hot for use inside tents"

You've lost your sense of adventure.

[mtnbkr]

Anyway, to get back to the original topic...

Given what I've read in this thread and what I've experienced personally as a semi-frequent camper (mainly deer camp in mid November these days).  I would select propane-based gear for camping/home and make sure I have the appropriate hoses and connectors for bulk tank usage (and the 1lb canister refill adapters).  If backpacking, I would go with an MSR multi-fuel liquid fuel stove like the ones I mentioned earlier.  That said, I tend to do that sort of cooking with Esbit stoves/tablets since it's simpler and lighter.

That just leaves home heating issues...

Moderate scale heating, such as a small house or a decent sized room is out of reach of the Mr Buddy-style tent heaters that use the green propane canisters.  I like the simplicity of an old school kerosene radiant heater such as a Kerosun (I have one), but kerosene is getting hard to find.  While we were running errands yesterday, I tried to find a source of kerosene.  All I found was 1gal cans at Lowes for $10.50 each.  I have natural gas service to my house, so I would be inclined to install one of those wall-mount ventless heaters and make sure it's adaptable to propane (some are).  My grandmother has one in her house (she uses bottled LPG) and it's a good backup to her LPG furnace.  She has put it to use during power outages (no electricity, no blower fan for furnace).  Natural gas service isn't affected by power outages, so we would be fine for short events.  But a long-term "event" might disrupt service.  The ability to switch it over to propane and run it from a 20lb BBQ tank would be valuable.

Chris

[charby]

Sorry, left out a sentence or three.  I hate generating the additional trash.  If I used propane for everything, I'd easily go through 2-3 of those on a weekend camping trip.  Back in the day, I'd go out into the woods for an entire week.  Those canisters just represent a lot of bulky useless trash. 

Chris

I bought a 11# propane bottle last fall, I got tired of generating a pile of little green bottles so I went with a smaller bulk tank. 11# can getting me through 4-5 weekends ice fishing before needing to refill.

[geronimotwo]

you can use a piece of stovepipe to make a very efficient wood cook-stove.

although it is less messy, i don't like propane for enclosed spaces (storing/using in the car, basement, etc) because of the explosion hazard.   i used to have a taylor pressurised kerosene stove that would clog every other week or so with daily use.  likely it was due to the stoves age rather than the type of fuel, but any little bit of rust/sludge/dirt would be problematic.   we have a kerosene heater, and a good supply of candles for power outages, etc.

does anyone know if coleman fuel has a shelf life?

[K Frame]

I have at least four service stations within 2 miles of me that carry water clear kerosene.

If you really want to load up on kerosene, go to Amish country. Every service station in my Mother's area has kerosene, as do most of the fuel dealers. Kerosene is also going to be easier to find in rural areas in general.

My Grandfather had a Perfection 500 kerosene heater that he used to heat his garage in the winter, and also had an old two-burner Butterfly gravity stove that they used for canning.

When I was growing up we used to use two of the Corona cylinder heaters to provide supplemental heat in our barn of a house. When I moved out on my own I got a 10,000 BTU radiant heater for my apartment. It wasn't really enough heat in the winter, but it allowed me to survive in my apartment without having to run the electric baseboard heat all the time. That was a big consideration given that I was taking home $111 a week, and my monthly rent was $180.

I'd never again use an unvented kerosene heater in my home. They do burn fairly cleanly, but they still left an oily residue on the windows, walls, and ceilings.

[K Frame]

"you can use a piece of stovepipe to make a very efficient wood cook-stove."

Do tell.

I've read accounts of soldiers during World War II using .50 caliber ammo cans to make wood burning foxhole heaters, using ration cans (if nothing better were available) as stove pipes.

[charby]

"you can use a piece of stovepipe to make a very efficient wood cook-stove."

Do tell.

I've read accounts of soldiers during World War II using .50 caliber ammo cans to make wood burning foxhole heaters, using ration cans (if nothing better were available) as stove pipes.

probably similar to a coffee can stove

[K Frame]

Of course. I wasn't thinking hobo stove.

[mtnbkr]

I've read accounts of soldiers during World War II using .50 caliber ammo cans to make wood burning foxhole heaters, using ration cans (if nothing better were available) as stove pipes.

I was contemplating building something of that sort to heat a canvas A-frame tent, but ended up going in a completely different direction.  There are lots of small wood stove ideas at Bushcraftusa.com.  One guy built a rather nice one out of a mini-keg.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

I bought a 11# propane bottle last fall, I got tired of generating a pile of little green bottles so I went with a smaller bulk tank. 11# can getting me through 4-5 weekends ice fishing before needing to refill.

That's an idea!

There's also these Lite Cylinder versions: http://www.amazon.com/Lite-Cylinder-Lightweight-Non-Corrosive-See-Through/dp/B000UWMJAM/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1318257301&sr=1-1

Chris

[K Frame]

"One guy built a rather nice one out of a mini-keg."

You mean an aluminum quarter keg, or one of those keg looking things that you can buy at grocery stores?

I wouldn't want to try to make a stove out of an aluminum keg. One of the stainless steel one wouldn't be a problem. In fact, it would be a great stove body.

[mtnbkr]

"One guy built a rather nice one out of a mini-keg."

You mean an aluminum quarter keg, or one of those keg looking things that you can buy at grocery stores?

I wouldn't want to try to make a stove out of an aluminum keg. One of the stainless steel one wouldn't be a problem. In fact, it would be a great stove body.

IIRC, a steel version of the latter.

Chris

[Tallpine]

I thought kerosene and #1 diesel were about the same 

[mtnbkr]

I thought kerosene and #1 diesel were about the same 

As far as I know, they are.  What are you getting at?

BTW, here's the thread about that keg-based wood stove I mentioned above: http://www.bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37413

Chris

[K Frame]

OK, that's one of the steel ones. I have a steel Heineken keg in my bedroom I use for loose change.

That's a pretty neat set up he has.

[K Frame]

Wow. Tent stoves are insanely priced.

[mtnbkr]

Wow. Tent stoves are insanely priced.

Yup and they aren't all that durable.  Run them too hot and they'll warp like mad.  You can fix them, but they'll never be straight again.

Chris

[roo_ster]

Lots of good data on this thread.

As for the heater, I would bound that problem by limiting it to one bedroom or tent.  If the S has really H the F, we can sleep in just one room to stretch out the fuel.

Knowing that the little propane tanks are re-fillable by the larger tanks is awfully handy. 

I think I aim for a full-up kit with propane
* Portable grill (non-portable grill at home)
* Stove (2-4 burners)
* Lanterns
* Heater
* Adapters/couplers/hoses to go around
* Natural gas adapter
* 2-4 20#/5gal LP cylinders (already own two, 1-2 goes on the camp out)
* 1-2 100#/24gal LP cylinders for SHTF
* 10 or so of the little green dealies for backup
* Turkey fryer kit, mostly to boil lotsa water if need be

I think I might use the following kerosene/liquid fuel backups:
* 1 pressurized lantern
* 4 or so old-school unpressurized lanterns
* Multi-fuel stove, likely single burner (white gas, unleaded, kerosene

[K Frame]

I think you need a dozen or so homemade self pressurizing Pepsi can stoves...

What are you expecting? Zombies, Giant Moon Worms, The Thing, Plague, Pox, Pleurisy, and Democrats all at once?

Being able to cook is fine.

What are you going to eat?

[geronimotwo]

i hear zombies leave bits of themselves all over.  easy pickins for lunch!

as far as the stove pipe cook stove, it is similar to the coffee can idea.  if you have a 12-14" section you cut tabs on the top and alternate bending one tab in and one tab out to make a grate for the pan.  cut some air slots at the bottom, and a side hole for feeding the fire (although it can be fed from the top).   use smallish sticks.

[roo_ster]

I think you need a dozen or so homemade self pressurizing Pepsi can stoves...

What are you expecting? Zombies, Giant Moon Worms, The Thing, Plague, Pox, Pleurisy, and Democrats all at once?

Being able to cook is fine.

What are you going to eat?

Actually Zombie Cub Scouts, their siblings, and their parents.

Note, it is for camping and SHTF.  And the camping includes helping cook for and feed a Cub Scout pack, like we did over the 01OCT weekend.  The one dad went through two green cylinders in one meal on his portable grill.  If propane is being used for grilling/cooking as well as illumination and maybe heating, I can see burning a good bit of the stuff.

[mtnbkr]

FWIW, a company called Century makes a propane adapter for liquid fuel Coleman stoves.  That may add the most flexibility for cooking.  The reviews I've read are positive.

Chris