Hillary, no longer a "New Yorker," supporting Palestine over Israel

[MicroBalrog]

Look. My point is simple. It is the same policy as advocated by the Israeli government.

A carrot and a stick.

Kill Hamas militants dead while supplying new houses, food, and infrastructure to innocent people who live in Palestine. Provide the infrastructure for them to have normal lives, jobs, and 32-inch TVs rather than just sitting on the UNRWA dole. If a person loses their house in the fighting and they're not a terrorist, why is it a bad thing to rebuild it for them?

Now, you can argue that is the wrong policy.

But to denigrate Hillary as an anti-Israeli because she backs it is completely ridiculous, because the Israeli government holds the same position. Surely you would not argue that the Prime Minister of Israel hates the country.

[Animal Mother]

In theory, I'd think thats a good policy for Israel.  In practice, I think you will run into all sorts of problems with getting the aid into the right hands. 

I denigrate Hillary Clinton for all sorts of reasons.

[MicroBalrog]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't like Hillary.  But on this one, she's not doing some rabidly anti-Israeli thing.

P.S. FWIW I voted for Likud in the last election.

[Manedwolf]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't like Hillary.  But on this one, she's not doing some rabidly anti-Israeli thing.

P.S. FWIW I voted for Likud in the last election.

Except as I said, they won, and then promptly punched themselves in the crotch.

[40 caliber]

If they don't want to suffer the consequences of harboring thugs within their society then they should rid themselves of the thugs.

Yet we Americans harbor Congress - one of the most thuggish groups of people in the world, with a variety of alphabet soup organizations at their beck and call. Think of all the damage the CIA has done in the last five decades as it manipulates governments around the world. Congress is responsible for allowing the CIA and we are responsible for allowing Congress. I can see why some see America as a terrorist nation.

I'm playing devil's advocate of course, but we should spend more time thinking about what we can do to be the shining light on the hill that we're supposed to be.

[Werewolf]

Yet we Americans harbor Congress - one of the most thuggish groups of people in the world, with a variety of alphabet soup organizations at their beck and call. Think of all the damage the CIA has done in the last five decades as it manipulates governments around the world. Congress is responsible for allowing the CIA and we are responsible for allowing Congress. I can see why some see America as a terrorist nation.

I'm playing devil's advocate of course, but we should spend more time thinking about what we can do to be the shining light on the hill that we're supposed to be.

I imagine that when Americans start dying at the same rate as the palestinians do and we determine the reason to be Congress that there will be fewer getting reelected or otherwise returning to congress.

[Balog]

Except as I said, they won, and then promptly punched themselves in the crotch.

The perfect description of the Republicans after they came to power.

[MicroBalrog]

The perfect description of the Republicans after they came to power.

I do believe there's probably some deep cultural/philosophical flaw that makes people do that.

[HankB]

Except as I said, they won, and then promptly punched themselves in the crotch.

The perfect description of the Republicans after they came to power.

I do believe there's probably some deep cultural/philosophical flaw that makes people do that.

I think it's because many "conservative" politicians are simply acting the part; down deep, they're liberals at heart.

[Balog]

Naw, it's just humanity's inherently depraved nature. Power corrupts D's and R's equally.

[MicroBalrog]

The issue is simple in my mind. Modern US conservatism (and many of the conservative movements in the West)  is a graft of several contradictory tendencies (something some people called 'creedal conservatism' and 'mindset conservatism').  I think most of us here would like to live in a society like the one Goldwater wanted – with no graduated income tax, a free market, a privatized/defederalized system of schooling. But on the other hand, a lot of people seem to be afraid of rapid change. They seem to think Obama is messing up America, but forget America was already 'messed up' before Obama. They're afraid of talking about the systemic differences between what we really want and what we really have – and some of them actually believe that the System is here to stay, so all we can do is to manage it in a more right-wing manner.

So then they come up with guys like McCain and Bush (and earlier, Eisenhower), or, on our side of the pond, Sarcozy and Bibi and so forth. People who talk the talk of free markets and individualism, but who want to keep wearing a suit and tie. People who won't hose out the ant hive, but instead keep growing it, perhaps at a lower pace. Second-rate arsonists.

Then we act surprised that the house is on fire.

[longeyes]

The problem is trying to mesh Conservatism with Christianity.   One is inherently rational and individualistic, the other non-rational and "compassionate."  One is built on inequality, the other on leveling.  One is about improving this material world, the other focused on another, immaterial realm. One worships the Bill of Rights, the other the parabolic wisdom of the New Testament. 

[makattak]

The problem is trying to mesh Conservatism with Christianity.   One is inherently rational and individualistic, the other non-rational and "compassionate."  One is built on inequality, the other on leveling.  One is about improving this material world, the other focused on another, immaterial realm. One worships the Bill of Rights, the other the parabolic wisdom of the New Testament. 

 :rolleyes:

Yes, the basis of individualism and western rationality (i.e. Christianity) is "non-rational" and corporate.

Funny, I think Adam Smith would disagree. (Amongst MANY others)

Edit: Also, WHAT does this have to do with Hillary?!

[longeyes]

Adam Smith's moral beliefs were (and are) important underpinnings of his economic theories but they do not reflect the radical left-leaning interpretations of Christianity that are often cited today as reasons for wealth redistribution.  Christianity can cut any number of ways.  You had Christian socialists in 19th century England.

Why would anyone expect a leftist like Hillary to espouse anything other than a pro-Palestinian position, especially when she's working for Barack Obama?

[MicroBalrog]

 

Why would anyone expect a leftist like Hillary to espouse anything other than a pro-Palestinian position, especially when she's working for Barack Obama?

Again. How is supporting the de-facto position of the Israeli government a Pro-Palestinian position?

[longeyes]

I think you will have to ask the Israeli government that question.  You know more about the conflicting currents of political thought within Israel than I do, I'm sure, so you probably understand what to some appear baffling positions.

[AZRedhawk44]

Again. How is supporting the de-facto position of the Israeli government a Pro-Palestinian position?

 

Longeyes, you're falling for the communist/socialist hijacking of Christianity that has happened in the last 100 years.  

I've decided I oppose the current Western idea of Human Rights.

This abusive concept is responsible for the staggering debt being foisted upon our unborn generations of Americans.  It is an anchor around the neck of our Economy.  It is a slimy miasma that seductively globs itself onto valid moral standards and then acts as a barrier to truly understanding them.

I'm not a bible thumper and haven't set foot in a church for service in about 5 years.  I casually believe and deal with my relationship with God in my own way, at my own pace, on my own terms.  Which basically amounts to a tip of the hat and a nod of acknowledgement every now and again, with some thanks thrown in here and there for truly remarkable things.  I should probably do more... but I don't. :rolleyes:

But your understanding of Christianity is tainted by the new age community churches that are on the prowl for those easy to fool into communo-socialist practices.  This is the "slimy miasma" I mentioned.

[longeyes]

I'm not falling for anything.  I'm an interested observer.  I'm saying that are irreconcilable philosophical forces here that muddy our thinking.  The irony is that the Left, which professes to be beyond such niceties as orthodox religion, has in fact absorbed at least the outward signs of the Sermon on the Mount.

I think, as A. Smith did, that capitalism requires morality but not the morality that is essentially anti-enterprise and pro-feudalism.

[longeyes]

Surely we would not argue that the Prime Minister of Israel hates his country.

Nor would we argue that the President of the United States hates HIS country.

Or would we?

People can be sincerely misguided or...driven by darker impulses not fully known even to themselves.  That's not news to anyone.

[MicroBalrog]

So you're telling me all of the political parties in Israel (with the exception, possibly, of Jewish Home with its 3 Knesset seats) hate the country and hold 'pro-Palestinian' positions?

That *I* hold a pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli position by saying that they have a point?

[longeyes]

Whoa.  I'm not telling you anything, I'm asking you what's going on.  That factions within Israel are acting at cross-purposes wouldn't be a shocker, would it?  I think we'd all like to understand better what's happening. 

[Werewolf]

Surely we would not argue that the Prime Minister of Israel hates his country.

Nor would we argue that the President of the United States hates HIS country.

Or would we?

People can be sincerely misguided or...driven by darker impulses not fully known even to themselves.  That's not news to anyone.

Well - I firmly believe that obama hates everything the US  currently stands for. Personal freedom, personal responsibility for sure (can a true believer in the nanny state do otherwise). He hates the role the US has assumed in the mideast probably but may be pragmatic enough to overlook his what could be vs what is world view and do what is necessary to protect US Citizens from harm.

Leftists are elitists and Obama has shown his true colors along those lines already by his actions. He alone knows what's best for the country and his stooges in congress are ever willing and able to go along and play to his notions.

[longeyes]

I think you got my drift.

There are a lot of "strange" things happening these days.

[MicroBalrog]

Whoa.  I'm not telling you anything, I'm asking you what's going on.  That factions within Israel are acting at cross-purposes wouldn't be a shocker, would it?  I think we'd all like to understand better what's happening. 

To my knowledge, absolutely every significant political player in Israel would agree with the following general statements:

1. That a Palestinian state must be formed in the near future.
2. That in order to ensure the security of Israel, major land concessions to the Palestinians are required.
3. That Israel must take action to improve the quality of living of the average Palestinian civilian, including helping secure assistance from civilized nations to build roads, electric power plants, to rebuild houses and so forth.

By this I mean that Labor, Kadima, Likud, and Israel Beitenu agree with these statement. Labor is a leftist party, Kadima is centrist, and the other two are right-wing. Obviously, leftist parties like Meretz and Hadash will also agree with these statements. Shas is making noises about this some times, but they don't actually oppose these policies in any significant way.

The only party which is on record for opposing these things outright is The Jewish Home, which represent the completely insane wing of the settlers.

[Perd Hapley]

The only party which is on record for opposing these things outright is The Jewish Home, which represent the completely insane wing of the settlers.

The insane wing?  Your party, then, I presume.