Author Topic: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act  (Read 7195 times)

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« on: March 26, 2009, 11:27:13 AM »
President Obama will be signing this into law soon I suspect.

Quote
Congress just passed the Omnibus Public Lands Management Act, the largest addition to the National Wilderness Preservation System in over a decade and one of the biggest public land conservation measures ever. It now goes to the president’s desk for signature. The Omnibus package rivals some of the greatest pieces of land protection legislation passed during the past fifty years.

http://wilderness.org/content/tremendous-day-wilderness

I'm in favor of public access for off road vehicles, atvs, motorcycles, snowmobiles and the like on much of our publicly held land. I'm also in favor of designated wilderness areas.

If the government is going to be in the "business" of owning and managing great swaths of property preserving what we have left of true wilderness and preserving some of our virgin forests (never been logged) seems like a worthy goal.

I've donned my asbestos suit, flame away :) 
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2009, 11:46:46 AM »
Maybe you've noticed that the more "wilderness" we preserve the less "wild" our people become?  That we become more docile, controlled, risk-averse, "feminized?"  The more sanitized and vicarious our everyday reality the more desperately we try to save the outdoors.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,973
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2009, 11:55:46 AM »
Maybe you've noticed that the more "wilderness" we preserve the less "wild" our people become?  That we become more docile, controlled, risk-averse, "feminized?"  The more sanitized and vicarious our everyday reality the more desperately we try to save the outdoors.

I've also noticed that the rate of chickification of society is directly proportional to global population, or inversely proportional to the number of operating pirates in the Caribbean.  I fail to see how the amount of wildlife lands has anything to do with the black helicopters dumping estrogen in the drinking water.

What exactly does this bill do?  Land is land... did the fedgov shift some from National forest to wilderness and parks?
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2009, 12:06:49 PM »
If the government is going to be in the "business" of owning and managing great swaths of property preserving what we have left of true wilderness and preserving some of our virgin forests (never been logged) seems like a worthy goal.

I'm cool with preserving some areas but on the other hand a lot of areas were managed by man long before the Europeans came. Indigenous folks used fire all the time to manage the landscape for their interests. Fire was used in some of the forests out west to stimulate huckleberry and blueberry growth. Burn the forest and berry bushes put out a bumper-crop.

Also some species like lodge pole pine have a life span of 90-125 years, why not harvest them, regeneration depends upon having lots of sunlight.

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2009, 12:40:14 PM »
What exactly does this bill do?  Land is land... did the fedgov shift some from National forest to wilderness and parks?

It does not seem to shift land from one agency to another very much.

What it does is:
1) create some new parks, monuments, forests by
a) fiat [e.g.: the new Washington-Rochambeau Historical Trail] along/over land that was previously public roadway - thus creating a new layer of law/regulation on what may not be done that previously was not prohibited -- biggest outcry is related to 2A issues

b) purchase of private property adjoining existing park/monument/forest.  biggest outcry is that private owners are not going to get the $$ they could have if the land was developed.  See the dust-up over how private development around Gettysburg has "sullied" the hallowed ground.  (IIRC the feds "bought" the land that the observation tower was on & demolished it - or maybe it was just that they wished they could.)

There used to be farms out along Rt 234 cutting through the Manassas Battlefield Park (Bull Run to you locals) that started to be developed for much-needed McMansion housing.  Local historical preservationists (a redundant tautology in the Old Dominion of Virginia) had major hissy-fits because those homes could be seen from the battlefield.  Now the feds are creating even more "buffer" area to prevent tourists from thinking those homes were there at the time of the battle.

and;

2) creates regulation that "allows/permits/says its OK depite everyone else bitching about it" that certain religiously-themed monuments/markers already erected doi not violate 1A and that other markers/monuments that meet certain guidlines can be erected without violating 1A.

I'm just sitting back waiting to see how DOI is going to deal with law enforcement along the new Washington-Rochambeau Route once all the states (and their localities) see that since it is now a National Park they (states/localities) can reduce budget by letting Park Rangers be Johnny Law along that stretch of highway.  =D ;/ :angel:  Going to need much popcorn for that one.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2009, 02:01:52 PM »
Quote
I've also noticed that the rate of chickification of society is directly proportional to global population, or inversely proportional to the number of operating pirates in the Caribbean.  I fail to see how the amount of wildlife lands has anything to do with the black helicopters dumping estrogen in the drinking water.

Utopian planners have long envisioned pristine wilderness punctuated by high-density urban compounds.  Intellectuals like elegant blueprints.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

Standing Wolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,978
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2009, 03:01:22 PM »
Quote
Utopian planners have long envisioned pristine wilderness punctuated by high-density urban compounds.  Intellectuals like elegant blueprints.

Yep. The workers and peasants spoil things for the vanguard of the revolution.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2009, 03:45:17 PM »
Are there any vast tracks of undeveloped land that are open to the public not owned by the government?

As capitalists we view undeveloped land as a resource, rightly so. There is little economic incentive to preserve the little remaining psuedo wilderness that still exists in the USA.

Often capitalists who have a love of the environment will buy up land then upon death give it to the state or a foundation to protect it from development. That is the exception though not the rule, I think.

From the beginning our government has owned and managed land. Why should today be any different?
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2009, 04:31:14 PM »
It seems to me from my limited knowledge of US history that there had been three periods of land management. Originally  most of the land was managed by the government for the purpose of eventual homesteading and development – and the government had understood its role only as a custodian of land for this purpose. Getting a slice of land for settlement at the time was comparatively easy. Now, a period of time emerged where areas of wilderness were set aside for conservation.

It needs to be understood that people like Theodore Roosevelt were not, strictly speaking, environmentalists in the same sense as modern Gaia-fans are. They saw wilderness as a resource – they saw a need to preserve, say, eagles so that their descendants would be able to enjoy them. TR saw nothing morally wrong with hunting, or with developing deserts so they became green.

A lot (not all by all means) of today's environmentalists are different. To many of them, preservation of nature is a value in and of itself – so if you turned a desert into a lush park, you're as much of a despoiler as someone who dumps poison into rivers. The natural result of this mindset is to reach out and 'preserve' as much land as possible so eventually only limited areas are available for farmers and real estate developers.

There are also leftist social planners who believe urban life is the way of the future. Their interests dovetail nicely with those of the above factions of environmentalists (note to Gewehr98 and other conservationists on this board: I do not imply that everybody who cares for the environment is like that): Both of them favor setting aside as much land as possible which cannot be developed upon, and sponsoring/funding mass transit that encourages people to move into cities.

This is part of the agenda.

Both the environmentalists of this faction and the leftists abhor the suburb. Don't believe me? Go and read their writings or watch their movies. Look how they describe suburbia as disgusting, their inhabitants as provincial, and so forth. They hate and despise the car and the American suburb not just because the car is polluting and the suburb wasteful, but also because the SUV and the red-roofed house are the symbols of the middle class. The bourgeoisie.

Both the leftist intellectual and the Gaia worshipper hate consumerism: the former, because consumerism maintains capitalism, and the latter, because consumerism 'hurts Mother Earth'. Their agendas thus dovetail nicely – and they join forces.

If you allow the leftists to have their way, sooner or later they'll use some regulatory means or antoher to move you all into NYC-type hives. In Israel they HAD their way and now the government owns 90% of the land, cars are taxed at 50% over MSRP upon import, and only the wealthy can afford separate homes at even semi-decent locations. They are now introducing an RFID-based card that will track all your travel on public transport, too. This is the final end of their journey.

I do not mean to say that we must abolish all the nature preserves and make with the drilling and shooting of near-extinct mammals. There is a place and time for healthy conservationist activities. But we must center our efforts around the notion that Mother Nature is not our Mommy. She is a resource.

By all means, set aside nature preserves – which already exist in all 50 states to preserve key species and locations. By all means, limit logging and emissions on factories – which, by the way, can be done through lawsuits – but make sure that, while legislating, you keep in mind that Mother Nature is not your Mommy. Don't make out like real estate developers are evil.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2009, 04:46:17 PM »
Are there any vast tracks of undeveloped land that are open to the public not owned by the government?

Define development? There are large tracts of land owned by lumber companies and paper companies that are open to the general public. These land have roads such as two tracts though them. People can use these lands to hunt and fish on.

-C
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2009, 06:25:52 PM »
Define development? There are large tracts of land owned by lumber companies and paper companies that are open to the general public. These land have roads such as two tracts though them. People can use these lands to hunt and fish on.

-C

In Shawnee National Forest my buddy and I decided to do some off trail exploration and inadvertently wandered onto some private land adjacent the forest. They were logging the side of a hill, not exactly wilderness or undeveloped. It looked a real mess and I'm sure your typical tree hugger would have probably broke down and cried soy milk right there on the spot.  The chainsaws we heard all the next day sort of ruined the illusion of wilderness also, lol.

This is what the wilderness act calls wilderness.
"DEFINITION OF WILDERNESS
© A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value."
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

lone_gunman

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 192
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2009, 01:08:01 AM »
Quote
There are large tracts of land owned by lumber companies and paper companies that are open to the general public. These land have roads such as two tracts though them. People can use these lands to hunt and fish on.

There are large tracts of land owned by paper companies all over the south, but I have never heard of them being open to the general public.  They will lease these areas to hunters.

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2009, 06:30:30 AM »
There are large tracts of land owned by paper companies all over the south, but I have never heard of them being open to the general public.  They will lease these areas to hunters.

Same here.  They've always been by written permission or lease, not open to the general public.

Chris

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2009, 09:47:44 AM »
There are large tracts of land owned by paper companies all over the south, but I have never heard of them being open to the general public.  They will lease these areas to hunters.

Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota for the North

Montana and Idaho for the west that I know for sure.

I think the north states are that way because the land owners gets a property tax break if they allow access to the general public.

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2009, 12:02:12 PM »
MicroBalrog has stated in full what I meant to imply in brief.  This is about misguided social utopianism. and we should be aware of what's behind it and where it leads.

Expect more and more off-limits "wilderness" with more and more "high-density"--that is the new code word--urban planning.  The high-density dystopias will, of course, be formicaries of liberal hive-think, and they will look like less kind and less gentle versions of the cities we already know and love and which increasingly control our overall political life.  Most of what we believe in in the Bill of Rights looks "obsolete" to people who live in such environments, and in those venues you can expect issues of public health, public safety, public welfare, public education, and overall general sedation to prevail over such anachronistic and heroic virtues as were espoused in the BOR.  In such a world only an amoral warlord is "free."

I live in Los Angeles.  It's already here.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

Waitone

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,133
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2009, 02:36:28 PM »
I am not aware the constitution permitted the federal government to own land.  Am I wrong?
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay, Scottish journalist, circa 1841

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it." - John Lennon

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2009, 04:24:51 PM »
Of course the federal govrnment owns land.  Some was purchased via treaty with some other country that had stolen it from the aboriginal owners, some was usurped by force of arms, and other little bits recently were paid off after condemnation hearings in the government's own courtrooms.

Large slices of land are being held "in trust" by the federal government for the current and future generations.  They like to call them national parks & monuments.  Other swaths are used for government-approved simultaneous multiple activities; they are often referred to as Bureau of Land Management areas.  Then there are the places where the government likes to show off and brag about - most often battles where they defeated somebody, but occassionally even places where they lost big time, like the Little Big Horn national park, commemorating the time the government decided to give up the farce of coexistence with the Indians and try for extermination.

Possibly the least-known is New London Economic District National Park, commemorating the end of private land ownership.

[/sarcasm]

Yes, the federal government owns lots of land.  Otherwise they'd have all sorts of problems keeping the looky-loos out of Area 51, and telling the tourists to get off the lawn at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW in DC.  (Among other things, DC is land that Maryland ceded to the feds for a capitol district -- Virginia claimed its territory back when it seceeded in 1861 and the feds never bothered trying too hard to get all of it back, although they did get Arlington Cemetary.)

Other than the original 13 colonies, all the land belonged to the federal government, which created territories that sooner or later were broken out into states - except for Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Somoa, Guam, etc.  Oh, yes, and the Philipines, which we "gave" independence to.

IIRC, the original land grant for the Coliny of Virginia extended from the Atlantic to the Pacific, a distance thought to be possibly some 500 miles.  After the Revolutionary War a new boundary for Virginia was set but the new federal government held onto the land that was left over and used it as the legal basis for claiming sea-to-sea boundaries, except for where the French and Spanish wished to dispute the matter.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

digitalandanalog

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2009, 11:36:30 PM »
Quote
Yes, the federal government owns lots of land.

Except that it is supposed to be a government BY THE PEOPLE and OF THE PEOPLE.

If .gov owns it, that means we let them think they do. I know...over simplified, but we THE PEOPLE own this country. Not WE THE DOT GOV...though they keep trying to tell us that it is the way it is.

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2009, 08:02:19 AM »
Except that it is supposed to be a government BY THE PEOPLE and OF THE PEOPLE.

'sposed to be Of the people, BY the people, FOR the people.

Check your grammar book rules.  Three separate clauses. =D :angel:

The first clause is going to be coming after you.  You will be hurt by the second clause.  It will be done on behalf of the third clause.

Today's civics class is now over.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

digitalandanalog

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2009, 03:41:32 AM »
This isn't civics class.

The message remains the same.

They are supposed to work for us since we employ (empower, hire, elect...pick your verb) them. Somehow they decided they are the boss when they are the subordinate.


« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 02:43:59 PM by digitalandanalog »

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2009, 09:02:51 PM »
My gut feeling is that Obama & Co. want to take as much resource-rich for themselves as possible.  It looks like a power grab (resource grab) and nothing more.  Think oil drilling rights.

Desertdog

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,360
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2009, 09:53:50 PM »
History has proven that the worse thing you can do for a forest is to make it a wilderness area.  A wilderness area is also the cheapest way to manage the forest.  No roads built.  No patrolling it, except by aircract.
After a few years, it will burn like hell with all the undergrowth.  Fight the fires with aerial tankers and hand crew parachuted in.  No bulldozers because they will damage the prestine forest, which nobody can get to unless they are outdoorsmen/women.  No firetrucks, since the roads are not maintained.

Remember the1988 Yellowstone fires?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_fires_of_1988 
A total of 793,880 acres (3,213 km2), or 36 percent of the park was affected by the wildfires.  They burned for months.  What a carbon foot print that was.

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2009, 11:04:07 PM »
History has proven that the worse thing you can do for a forest is to make it a wilderness area.  A wilderness area is also the cheapest way to manage the forest.  No roads built.  No patrolling it, except by aircract.
After a few years, it will burn like hell with all the undergrowth.  Fight the fires with aerial tankers and hand crew parachuted in.  No bulldozers because they will damage the prestine forest, which nobody can get to unless they are outdoorsmen/women.  No firetrucks, since the roads are not maintained.

Remember the1988 Yellowstone fires?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_fires_of_1988 
A total of 793,880 acres (3,213 km2), or 36 percent of the park was affected by the wildfires.  They burned for months.  What a carbon foot print that was.


Forest fires are natural.

Years of not letting them not burn is the reason they eventually burn so ferociously.

I'm not saying that I like forest fires but some tree species depend on fire to clear the underbrush and initiate germination.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2009, 11:52:26 PM »
Yup.

The Jack Pine (Pinus Banksiana) trees need fire to open up their pine cones. 

"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

Bigjake

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,024
Re: The Omnibus Public Land Management Act
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2009, 07:49:40 PM »
I don't have a link hand, so take this for what it's worth...

I heard that this was mostly to declare a bunch more land off limits to oil/resource exploration and use...

Again, it's hear-say, so I'll have to look a bit to find where I read it.