Author Topic: 1911 Enlightenment Needed  (Read 10350 times)

RJMcElwain

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1911 Enlightenment Needed
« on: April 04, 2007, 05:16:12 PM »
Please excuse my ignorance. When I reacquired by shooting hobby several years ago, I studied what was around and wound up mostly with SIGs and Rugers, because, for the most part, they don't have safeties, just decockers. Personal taste, I'm more comfortable with uncocked pistols.

My brother-in-law has an early model Colt 1911 which I've fired numerous times. However, I haven't fired it enough to understand the apparent mystique about 1911s versus everything else. Am I missing something? I'm not interested in irritating anyone about this, but if there are any of you who have a fair amount of experience with both 1911s and, let's say SIGs and everything else, what's the difference?

Thanks,

Bob
Robert J. McElwain
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Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 05:26:44 PM »
I don't currently own a 1911, but I've got a BHP (down from a total of 16 or so). For me, they just feel good; I appreciate the history behind all those that were made and carried in harm's way, and my Dad carried one professionally.
They also have the best trigger of any defensive firearm I've ever experienced.

Myself, I like SIGs. However, my wife carries a Springer compact 1911. Keeps her from coveting the BHP Cheesy

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The Rabbi

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2007, 05:36:36 PM »
Please excuse my ignorance. When I reacquired by shooting hobby several years ago, I studied what was around and wound up mostly with SIGs and Rugers, because, for the most part, they don't have safeties, just decockers. Personal taste, I'm more comfortable with uncocked pistols.

My brother-in-law has an early model Colt 1911 which I've fired numerous times. However, I haven't fired it enough to understand the apparent mystique about 1911s versus everything else. Am I missing something? I'm not interested in irritating anyone about this, but if there are any of you who have a fair amount of experience with both 1911s and, let's say SIGs and everything else, what's the difference?

Thanks,

Bob
The 1911 is mostly favored by people easily impressed with tradition.  It has limited capacity, a proven track record of operator induced error, and when reliable isn't accurate and when accurate isn't reliable.  It is slim and they often have nice triggers (except the Colts, which seem to suck).  Further, they must be carried in the barbaric "cocked and locked" position, often by people who proclaim solemnly they don't trust manual safeties.  Or carried in the dangerous "Israeli mode" with an empty chamber, necessitating two hands and about 2 extra seconds to bring into action.  The more expensive variety seem to be fickle as to ammo choice.  Magazines are easy to get but since most of them are junk it doesnt matter.
SIGs (the only autos I own currently) are both reliable and accurate.  They have been chambered in everything from 9mm to .38Super to 30 Luger to .45acp.  They are the choice of professionals all over the world.  I have shot the nastiest ammo through mine with no failures at all. Trigger in double action mode isnt the crispest.
But I'm sure someone will rail against my views.
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K Frame

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2007, 06:57:33 PM »
"when reliable isn't accurate and when accurate isn't reliable."

Two words.

One is bull.

A shiny dime to the person who comes up with the other.

It takes no great feat of magic or a sacrifice to some obscure God to come up with a 1911 that is BOTH accurate AND reliable right out of the box, and there are many.

Some of the other points you make are valid, Rabbi, but this kind of crass, uninformed generalization goes a long way towards destroying that credibility.

For the record I've encountered Sigs that malfunction, Sigs that are inaccurate, and Sigs that have amazingly poor triggers in both single and double action right out of the box.

The 1911 design also has a wide range of cartridges under its belt, as well, ranging from .22 all the way to 10mm. The Sig line up doesn't have much, if any, advantage in that arena.
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Manedwolf

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2007, 11:09:37 PM »
I've heard pretty good things about the Taurus 1911 being both reliable and accurate, as it comes with all sorts of racegun features and lacks the awful things like Kimber's external extractor.

And my father has a nice Sistema with the Ejercito Argentino marking that's both accurate and reliable.


HankB

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2007, 04:31:10 AM »
A good 1911 is accurate, reliable, and ergonomic, with an excellent trigger. The "cocked and locked" mode of carry is excellent, as it is extremely fast to get into action and the pistol is immediately ready for use with that short, light, trigger pull, having a short reset.

Sadly, too many 1911s - including those from many of the major "name" manufacturers - are unreliable out of the box, due to ill-considered design changes or poor quality control.

I had a Colt Mk IV Series 70 that can best be termed "Jammamatic." On the other hand, I have a Les Baer Premier II which is both superlatively accurate and superlatively reliable with anything & everything I've fed it.

SIGs are generally good out of the box; for $600 - $700 you're more likely to get a reliable one than a 1911 for the same price - but they're not perfect, and the ergonomics don't suit me.
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TaxPhd

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2007, 04:44:40 AM »
The 1911 is mostly favored by people easily impressed with tradition.  It has limited capacity, a proven track record of operator induced error, and when reliable isn't accurate and when accurate isn't reliable.  It is slim and they often have nice triggers (except the Colts, which seem to suck).  Further, they must be carried in the barbaric "cocked and locked" position, often by people who proclaim solemnly they don't trust manual safeties.

ROTFLMFAO!!!


In the various "action" pistol games (IPSC, IDPA, etc.) as well as self defense, the requirements are quite similar.  Both require the ability to place multiple shots on multiple targets, quickly and accurately, from a variety of positions, using a sufficiently accurate round.

The results from the games are quite conclusive - the 1911 is clearly the best tool for the job.




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woodcdi

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2007, 04:53:47 AM »
One good point I've noticed is that the safety on the 1911 also locks the slide in place(keeps the gun in battery) for when you slide it into a holster. I've had my Walter PPK/S damn near unchamber a round upon sliding it into a new holster.(I've since altered how I holster my weapons, using the method where you place your thumb on the end of the slide as you push the gun into the holster. I think it was Ayoob who came up with this method for placing your thumb between the hammer and firing pin to help prevent an AD/ND on a cocked and locked gun like a 1911 during holstering.)

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JonnyB

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2007, 04:56:41 AM »
A 1911 can be a very nice personal-defense handgun. Disregard the heresy preached by the Rabbi; it's untrue. The 1911 is among the most accurate of all handguns, primarily because of the single-action mechanics. The reliability can be compromised in search of supreme accuracy, though. In a target gun, that's fine. In a carry sidearm, it can get you dead in a hurry.

Any pistol is precise enough for "social work" but it must be absolutley dependable. I have a Kimber .45 that is deadly accurat and also reliable. I trust my life to it without reserve.

1911 pistols are great for carry! They're slim enough to conceal if it's required. They come in 3, 4 and f inch models; in all-steel, in stainless steel, alloy frame and combinations thereof. Mine weighs 25 ounces unloaded. It carries 7 + 1 rounds and I have at least one spare magazine. I don't feel under-gunned in the slightest bit.

My other carry gun is a Browning Hi-Power, another single-action pistol. It's a 9mm but has 13 + 1 capacity. Either is a fine, fine defensive choice.

Use whatever floats yer boat. It matters not a bit what *I* carry; you get to carry what pleases you.

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Ron

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2007, 05:06:43 AM »
As a rule I don't dump on peoples choice of guns, it is a personal choice.

My Springfield TRP and Rock River Arms commander size 1911's shut all the 1911 naysayers up in the practical pistol group I shoot with.

When they start running down 1911's as unreliable to newbies I saunter over and ask them to describe the failures my gun (s) have had during the thousands upon thousands of rounds they have seen me shoot. All they can say, and it is legitimate, is that I have guns that cost a lot of money.

Shoot practical pistol long enough and you will see all types of guns choke.


280plus

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2007, 05:16:45 AM »
I've probably shot at LEAST 5000 rounds through my BHP. I've had 2 FTE in all that time, once when it was brand new and once just recently. Other than that, dirty or not, it always goes bang...
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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2007, 05:29:36 AM »
Exactly what I expected.  People trotting out their "my Kimber/Colt/RRA/Norinco has thousands of rounds through it and never had a problem".  Like any of that is definitive.
For people who like the platform and are comfortable with it, great.  I think it's a poor choice for anything but gaming/shooting at the range.  That's why manufacturers make many different models of semi autos.
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RJMcElwain

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2007, 05:46:06 AM »
So, what I've heard is:

A quality 1911 is as reliable as a quality pistol of any other design. Cheap 1911s can get you killed just as easily as any other cheap handgun.

If you don't like thumb safeties and carrying cocked and locked, don't get a 1911. If these are not a concern, 1911s are great carry guns.

Bottom line: Personal choice. Whatever feels comfortable. But buy quality if your life is important to you.

Did I miss anything?

I think I'll need to get an early Colt 1911, just for range shooting, as I'm one of those who doesn't feel comfortable with thumb safeties and cocked and locked for carry. OTOH, hopefully, I'll never need to test my preference.

Bob
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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2007, 05:49:02 AM »
Quote
Like any of that is definitive

About as definitive as your following statement.

Quote
and when reliable isn't accurate and when accurate isn't reliable

There is nothing wrong with the design, it is just often poorly executed.


Manedwolf

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2007, 05:55:44 AM »
So, what I've heard is:

A quality 1911 is as reliable as a quality pistol of any other design. Cheap 1911s can get you killed just as easily as any other cheap handgun.

If you don't like thumb safeties and carrying cocked and locked, don't get a 1911. If these are not a concern, 1911s are great carry guns.

Bottom line: Personal choice. Whatever feels comfortable. But buy quality if your life is important to you.

Did I miss anything?

I think I'll need to get an early Colt 1911, just for range shooting, as I'm one of those who doesn't feel comfortable with thumb safeties and cocked and locked for carry. OTOH, hopefully, I'll never need to test my preference.

Bob

Sometimes not even price is the factor. A surplus Argentine Sistema made on the original machinery, IMO, is a much better gun than one of the Kimbers with the external extractors, which, despite costing up to a thousand dollars or more, might need to be sent to a smith before it works right.

It's sort of like how an Acura is a better car, mechanically, than a Jaguar. One runs forever, one is a garage queen.

Manedwolf

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2007, 06:01:28 AM »
Exactly what I expected.  People trotting out their "my Kimber/Colt/RRA/Norinco has thousands of rounds through it and never had a problem".  Like any of that is definitive.
For people who like the platform and are comfortable with it, great.  I think it's a poor choice for anything but gaming/shooting at the range.  That's why manufacturers make many different models of semi autos.

Hm. I thought our special forces still used them?

Must be SOME reason for that, being that they can generally pick their sidearms.


The Rabbi

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2007, 06:05:49 AM »
Exactly what I expected.  People trotting out their "my Kimber/Colt/RRA/Norinco has thousands of rounds through it and never had a problem".  Like any of that is definitive.
For people who like the platform and are comfortable with it, great.  I think it's a poor choice for anything but gaming/shooting at the range.  That's why manufacturers make many different models of semi autos.

Hm. I thought our special forces still used them?

Must be SOME reason for that, being that they can generally pick their sidearms.



Actually there are a variety of sidearms used, inlcuding the HK Mk 23 and SIG P226.  And yes, a couple of 1911s, probably at the insistence of someone's grandfather who carried one during "the big one."
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K Frame

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2007, 06:07:52 AM »
Exactly what I expected.  People trotting out their "my Kimber/Colt/RRA/Norinco has thousands of rounds through it and never had a problem".  Like any of that is definitive.
For people who like the platform and are comfortable with it, great.  I think it's a poor choice for anything but gaming/shooting at the range.  That's why manufacturers make many different models of semi autos.

Interesting that you'd decry people making "definitive statements" when you yourself were pretty "definitive" in your claims.

Even better, you take people to task for using their personal 1911s as examples, but you yourself had the temerity to trot out your personal Sigs, supposedly as examples of their hyper perfection.


Hypocritical, to say the least.



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roo_ster

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2007, 06:13:09 AM »
RJMcElwain:

Generally speaking, the 1911 is the easiest pistol for a person to shoot quickly and accurately.  A moderate/slim grip, a better trigger than 99% of other pistols, a short (but adjustable) distance from the backstrap to the trigger, and single-action semi-auto manual of arms are all factors that contribute to shootability. Guys with bear-paws and gals with itty-bitty hands can find a comfortable grip, given changes to the beavertail safety, trigger length, & grip stocks.

Also, the 1911 carries (as in CCW, IWB) more easily than other service-autos because its slide and grip are so slim.  Less chafing, less liklihood of printing. 

Usually, most action-shooting sports have at least one 1911-only category, as it is not fair to make otherwise equal competitors compete with equipment shown to not perform quite as quickly as others (the 1911).

Now, the above is not to disparage many other fine designs.  Take the lines of various SIG non-1911 autos.  They are fine weapons.  I am especially fond of the 220.  Thing is, they are p!ss-poor choices for gals with hands like my wife.  The wide (mostly) double-stack grips, the looooong ways from backstrap to trigger, the long first DA trigger pull, all work against her, no matter the quality of execution.  Beretta's service autos are similar: quality weapons, poor designs for a goodly number of folks.

Also, so many of the DA/SA & DAO pistols have gritty, horrific triggers that most 'smiths won't even try to improve. 

Where some 1911 manufacturers fall down is in execution of the design.  Since the patent on the 1911 ran out, anybody with machining equip can turn out a "1911."  These days, a couple of the top non-custom 1911 makers are Smith & Wesson and STI.  Also, many 1911s made by varous manufacturers to the original design spec are still around.  Springfield manufactures the pistol carried by one of the FBI's rapid-response segments & might be worth taking a gander at.

Good luck to you, if you decide to purchase a 1911.  FWIW, I was able to switch from a sub-compact double-stack auto as my favored CCW to a full-sized 1911 (S&W) after giving it a try.  It was just easier to tote the 1911 and I shot it better than anything else. 
Regards,

roo_ster

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mountainclmbr

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2007, 06:23:21 AM »
If you don't like the cocked and locked feature, you can get a Para Ordnance LDA action. It has the safety with the hammer down. The trigger on mine is smooth as butter.
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onions!

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2007, 06:29:53 AM »
Any one else find it odd that a "which gun" topic showed up here?

It just seems kinda funny to me.

Now back to your regularly scheduled argument.

 grin

The Rabbi

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2007, 06:31:40 AM »
Exactly what I expected.  People trotting out their "my Kimber/Colt/RRA/Norinco has thousands of rounds through it and never had a problem".  Like any of that is definitive.
For people who like the platform and are comfortable with it, great.  I think it's a poor choice for anything but gaming/shooting at the range.  That's why manufacturers make many different models of semi autos.

Interesting that you'd decry people making "definitive statements" when you yourself were pretty "definitive" in your claims.

Even better, you take people to task for using their personal 1911s as examples, but you yourself had the temerity to trot out your personal Sigs, supposedly as examples of their hyper perfection.


Hypocritical, to say the least.




Do you have any idea what you're talking about?
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K Frame

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2007, 06:46:55 AM »
Let's see, Rabbi...

Your quote from your first screed:

"SIGs (the only autos I own currently) are both reliable and accurate."

Your quote from your second screed:

"Exactly what I expected.  People trotting out their "my Kimber/Colt/RRA/Norinco has thousands of rounds through it and never had a problem".  Like any of that is definitive."


From one side of your mouth you state that your own PERSONAL Sigs are supposedly reliable and accurate, with the inference clearly being that because YOUR Sigs are supposedly reliable and accurate ALL Sigs are supposedly reliable and accurate. In essence, we're to take the fact that you own Sigs that are supposedly reliable and accurate as definitive proof that all Sigs are reliable and accurate (something that I've already contested).

But from the other side of your mouth you ridicule the tactic that you yourself introduced into the thread with this statement -- "Like any of that is definitive." In essence, you're claiming that anyone who has a 1911 that is both reliable and accurate is either lying, or they have a truly unique handgun that was an accident of manufacture and nature.


As I said, the height of hypocrisy because you adopt two completely different standards of proof.

I'm sort of disappointed, but not surprised, that you're not able to see or comprehend that distinction, so I'd have to say that the only person here who doesn't know what he's talking about is....

YOU.



Oh, and one other question...

What's the magazine capacity on a P220 in .45 ACP?

Seems to me that it's EXACTLY the same as a full-size 1911 in .45 ACP, eh?

So, in other words, Sigs ALSO have limited magazine capacity.

But that simply can't be true, now can it?

By virture of the fact that it's a Sig, the 220 must have a much higher magazine capacity than that "limited capacity" 1911, right?

No?

Oops. Looks like another one of your arguments just smacked hard right into the face of reality...
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RJMcElwain

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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2007, 08:23:44 AM »
Any one else find it odd that a "which gun" topic showed up here?

It just seems kinda funny to me.

Now back to your regularly scheduled argument.

 grin

This was not intended as a "which gun" thread. It also was not intended to be a pi$$ing contest. I was really just looking for edification, as my original post was fairly clear about.

However, as is so often the case on internet forums, we've gotten into "thread drift".

Bob
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Re: 1911 Enlightenment Needed
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2007, 08:33:43 AM »
Any one else find it odd that a "which gun" topic showed up here?

It just seems kinda funny to me.

Now back to your regularly scheduled argument.

 grin

This was not intended as a "which gun" thread. It also was not intended to be a pi$$ing contest. I was really just looking for edification, as my original post was fairly clear about.

However, as is so often the case on internet forums, we've gotten into "thread drift".

Bob

I didn't mean anything by my comment other than I don't recall the last time a thread of this type popped up.A gun specific thread that is.