1911 Enlightenment Needed

[Art Eatman]

I've owned whatever model of Glock is .45ACP.  Other full-size semi-autos include the 1911 and Commander, Browning HiPower, Beretta 92S, Walther P38 and Luger.

I've shot all of them.  I've not had any problems with any of them.  They're all easy to shoot reasonably accurately.

My preference is for the 1911, not the 1911A1.  I like the flat, Colt-made beavertail grip safety.  IOW, that package fits nicely in my hand.  MMC fixed sights are easy to install. 

I've never been all eaten up with the emotional whatzits about carrying "cocked and locked".  It has worked for me since 1966; I don't care about what anybody else thinks about it.

I'm an old hot-rodder.  "Showroom stock sucks."  I mess with the innards of guns same as with cars.  The way a gun comes from the box isn't the way it'll stay.   The 1911 is probably the easiest to work over and make it suit me and that's part of the "why" for my preference.  They're easy to make target-tight or combat-loose.  Parts are cheap and plentiful.

But the "best" pistol is the one with which you can most easily hit your intended target.

Art

[Gewehr98]

It also was not intended to be a pi$$ing contest. I was really just looking for edification, as my original post was fairly clear about.

It's not a pissing contest.  The only urination happening here is coming from The Rabbi's corner, and I think he's trying to be funny.

Lest we forget, the 1911 was the standard sidearm for our troops for 80+ years, and still is in some units.  I packed an Ithaca 1911A1 during Desert Shield/Desert Storm, and was so comfortable with the performance and fit that I bought my own batch of 1911s over the next 15 years. 

He'll call this anecdotal, but I doubt I could count the number of CCW holders who, veterans or not, pack a 1911.  John Moses Browning was no idiot, and his basic design endures to this day.  There's a reason IPSC/USPSA/IDPA folks run through their courses of fire with the 1911, and it's not because they're trying to be trendy.  The design works, and works well.  You do have to bear in mind that extra widgets can cause heartache, like the external extractors, full-length guide rods, shok-buffs, group-grippers, and so forth.  Keep it simple.

Now, if you don't have the discipline to abide by "cocked and locked", fine.  Get a Glock or some other crunchenticker, and be less of a liability to the community with your fat fingers. Likewise, if the gun doesn't fit you well, or shoot to your particular point of aim, look elsewhere, no harm, no foul. Me, I wear either a 5" (Norinco, no less!) 1911 or 3.5" Caspian Officer's ACP in a Milt Sparks Summer Special, and I'm just waiting for the thumb safety to disengage at the same time the grip safety depresses and the trigger pulls, all by it's lonesome.  To hear the naysayers, it's an everyday occurence.  That's ok, just like the guns that go out and spill blood in the streets, prompting me to put a webcam on my naughty little AR-15 and AK-47.

Also, if you just don't like the 1911 platform, come out and say so.  Stop beating around the bush and insulting those who do.  That's weak at best, and I'd expect better now that Oleg cleaned house around here.

[Manedwolf]

Now, if you don't have the discipline to abide by "cocked and locked", fine.  Get a Glock or some other crunchenticker, and be less of a liability to the community with your fat fingers.

Of course, some might say that a GRIP SAFETY is, in fact, safer than a Glock with no safety at all.

A 1911 can't ND just from the trigger being caught on something, if the grip safety has no pressure on it, correct?

A Glock...?

[crt360]

Please consider sending any 1911s that disappoint you to crt's home for unwanted guns.  Each and every one will receive proper attention and care.  If you do not know of a gun in need, but would still like to contribute, we gladly accept ammo donations. 

[The Rabbi]

Of course there's the other side: without the grip safety depressed the gun wont fire. And that can be (and has been) a factor in shootings when the shooter cannot get a good grip on the gun.

[Gewehr98]

You don't suppose that little hang-up would manifest itself when the owner went out and practiced with the gun or used it to qualify for his CCW permit, do you? 

[onions!]

Of course there's the other side: without the grip safety depressed the gun wont fire. And that can be (and has been) a factor in shootings when the shooter cannot get a good grip on the gun.

I thought that that's what roll pins were for? [insert tongue in cheek smiley here]

[The Rabbi]

You don't suppose that little hang-up would manifest itself when the owner went out and practiced with the gun or used it to qualify for his CCW permit, do you? 

It isnt a matter of practice.  It's a matter of practicality.  Sometimes you are in a situation where you just cant grip the gun correctly.

[Gewehr98]

Ok, that comparison is right up there with estimating the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

It's always something, be it finger strength not enough to pull DA trigger on S&W revolver, Glock goes kB! on the first shot, strong hand disabled during messy shoot-out, brain aneurysm happening in shooter's head at the exact same moment the front sight's aligned on bad guy, etc. Should've stayed in bed at that point...

[Ron]

The real argument going on here below the surface is 9mm vs 45ACP

Obviously Rabbi shoots a girlie round and feels inadequate   

[The Rabbi]

The real argument going on here below the surface is 9mm vs 45ACP

Obviously Rabbi shoots a girlie round and feels inadequate   

Actually I shoot a .357Magnum so mine's longer. 

[Gewehr98]

I've packed my .357 on occasion, too.  No IWB holster, though, I've got a shoulder rig. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The real argument going on here below the surface is 9mm vs 45ACP

Obviously Rabbi shoots a girlie round and feels inadequate   

Actually I shoot a .357Magnum so mine's longer. 

I've hear that width matters more than length.

Um, anyways...  Your comments throughout this thread, are you being serious or sarcastic?  I can't quite tell.

[The Rabbi]

I've packed my .357 on occasion, too.  No IWB holster, though, I've got a shoulder rig. 

I sold a gun just like that the other day to a late-50s Black gentleman who stood about 6'5" and weighed 280.  I think it was pocket carry for him.

I'm not a fan of the 1911 but it's fun pointing out the flaws in the platform and watching the die-hards go ape.

[Gewehr98]

I'm not a fan of the 1911

Noooo!  You don't say!   

[Art Eatman]

If a person doesn't like the grip safety on a 1911, just take a little piece of tinfoil, insert it appropriately, et voila!  No more problem, a-tall.  Or, dig out the acetylene wrench and weld up a little bulge onto the grip safety.  Grind to shape, polish, cold blue, fageddaboutit!

I shot IPSC for three years, starting back in 1981.  I guess I averaged, week-in, week-out, some 400 rounds of practice, plus a dozen matches a year.  Nowhere near as many as the serious guys, but good enough for what I wanted out of the game.  That's an awful lot of "as fast as I can" for draw and fire.

Never had a problem with the grip safety.  Not much of a design flaw, methinks.  If it's a flaw, I just wish all flaws on all guns were as easy to fix.

I'd say that a magazine disconnect is more of a design flaw, if the design is supposed to be oriented toward self-defense.  But they're easily removed from the BHP.  Or the absence of a barrel bushing; can't tighten things up after a lot of use and wear; buy a new frame?  Colt bushings are cheep, cheep, cheep, and don't go on the 4473.

Art

[TaxPhd]

Exactly what I expected.  People trotting out their "my Kimber/Colt/RRA/Norinco has thousands of rounds through it and never had a problem".  Like any of that is definitive.

None of that is definitive, but the results from the games are.  Quantifiable data that clearly illustrates the superiority of the 1911.  If Sigs, Glocks, etc. were better, they would win overwhelmingly.  They don't.  The 1911 does.

I think it's a poor choice for anything but gaming/shooting at the range.

It's like the guys that say, "Those trap shooting hotshots are great on clay's, but I'd smoke 'em on real birds."  Or, "The practitioner of (insert your combative art of choice) is great in the ring, but my skills are too deadly for the ring.  In a street fight, I'd be the last man standing."

Take your Sig and enter a USPSA match.  Compete in Limited or Limited 10 and see how well you do against the guys shooting 1911's.  Then report back.




Scott

[Art Eatman]

Aw, TaxPhd, I wouldn't worry about what other folks think.  Their opinions are as irrelevant as yours or mine.

Browning, Sig, Beretta, Colt, S&W, Walther, Glock, whatever, they're equally good if the parameters for being able to shoot accurately with the silly things work for you.  There ain't a nickel's worth of difference in a boxcar load.

I've only done one head-to-head test with handguns, and that was with revolvers.  I had a 6" Python, a 6" Model 66 that had been "tweaked" a bit, a targetized 4" large-frame Smith .357 and a Ruger 4" stainless GP 100.

So out back to the pistol range with four boxes of full-house .357.  The deal was self-defense shooting; as fast as possible at multiple targets at ranges of five to twenty yards.

I HIT best with the Ruger.  Did that make it the best of all four revolvers?  Only for me.  Somebody else might have had totally different results.

Art

[K Frame]

Oh, but Art!

You know those Ruger revolvers!

If they're accurate, they're unreliable.

If they're reliable, they're not accurate!

[Antibubba]

But I thought this was neat:

http://www.m1911.org/loader.swf

[Art Eatman]

Antibubba, to me, that gun has a design flaw:  You can't do a quick press-check to see if there's a round in the chamber, or to cock the pistol if the hammer's down.  JMB's idea was better.

Art

[The Rabbi]

Exactly what I expected.  People trotting out their "my Kimber/Colt/RRA/Norinco has thousands of rounds through it and never had a problem".  Like any of that is definitive.

None of that is definitive, but the results from the games are.  Quantifiable data that clearly illustrates the superiority of the 1911.  If Sigs, Glocks, etc. were better, they would win overwhelmingly.  They don't.  The 1911 does.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!

By the same token, Glocks are prone to ADs because when you hear about an AD it usually involves a Glock.
Surely you can do better than use evidence like that?

[mtnbkr]

Since I carry a j-frame 38special, I'm certain to die messily.  Underpowered, low capacity, slow to bring to action, etc.  I might as well carry a stick.

Chris

[TaxPhd]

Exactly what I expected.  People trotting out their "my Kimber/Colt/RRA/Norinco has thousands of rounds through it and never had a problem".  Like any of that is definitive.

None of that is definitive, but the results from the games are.  Quantifiable data that clearly illustrates the superiority of the 1911.  If Sigs, Glocks, etc. were better, they would win overwhelmingly.  They don't.  The 1911 does.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!

By the same token, Glocks are prone to ADs because when you hear about an AD it usually involves a Glock.
Surely you can do better than use evidence like that?

??

Maybe I missed something.  My point was that there is quantifiable data (the results of 1,000's of competitions over a period of many years) demonstrating the superiority of the 1911.  Your "By the same token" comparison of Glock AD's is simply anecdotal, and I don't get the point.




Scott

[The Rabbi]

The only thing you "demonstrated" is that more people who compete do so with a 1911.  That doesn't speak to the supposed "superiority" of the old rattle trap, only to its popularity among middle aged fat guys.