Author Topic: Texas spin on "Right to Life"  (Read 2263 times)

TexasRifleman

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Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« on: April 10, 2007, 06:33:55 AM »
I'm not quite sure how I feel about this one.

A real mess for sure.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,264996,00.html

Part of the article...

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AUSTIN, Texas   As 17-month-old Emilio Gonzales lies in a hospital, hooked up to tubes to help him breathe and eat, his mother holds him close and cherishes every movement.

Catarina Gonzales knows her baby is terminally ill and that one day she'll have to let go. But it's not yet time, she and her attorneys contend in their legal clash with hospital officials who say it's best to stop Emilio's life-sustaining treatment.

A Texas law lets the hospital make that life-or-death call. The latest legal dispute over the law  Emilio's case  goes to court again Tuesday, the day his life support is set to end.

wmenorr67

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2007, 06:58:57 AM »
While I have not read the complete article and I am trying to load it right now, the first question I would have is this; is this decision being based partly on the legal status of the patient and parent plus does the ability of paying the bill in play also?  Or is this a case where the mother just needs a big dose of reality?
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TexasRifleman

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2007, 07:03:57 AM »
The hospital says it has nothing to do with finances as the family is covered by Medicare (me and you).

They claim the things needed to keep the boy alive are invasive and damaging to his body so they want to turn it all off.

Seems like mom is hanging on too long to me, but it would be a tough spot.

Paddy

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2007, 09:07:55 AM »
The baby is terminally ill with no hope of recovery. Let him go back to God.

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2007, 01:32:39 PM »
I am a pro-life Christian.  As long as there is a reasonable hope, I would be in favor of keeping the little guy hooked up in the hope of recovery.

Since the child is terminal, it is time to let God have his own back.

All this assumes that the child is both terminal and being artificially kept alive. 

Filing lawsuits to keep him in his mortal coil for a few months longer is not the way to express one's gratitude toward the taxpayers of the state of Texas for the cost we have borne up to the point it was determined the child was terminal.

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tyme

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2007, 04:57:34 PM »
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Seems like mom is hanging on too long to me, but it would be a tough spot.
Emilio is about 17 months old.  He was born deaf and blind, and has been on life support for over 3 months.  Barring radical recombinant therapies -- the development of which is protested by many of the same sort of people who are wailing for Emilio to be "saved" from the abominable hospital ethics board -- Emilio doesn't have a chance of ever surviving off of life support.  He didn't have a chance 3 months ago, either.  In my brief searching this evening, I've found no reference to any cases of Leigh's disease ever improving temporarily (though some cases manifest later in life and/or progress more slowly).  To be blunt, he seems to be mainly an emotional piñata for those around him (namely, his mother).

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/leighsdisease/leighsdisease.htm  (section: Prognosis)
http://www.umdf.org/mito_info/diseasedescriptions.aspx#Leigh's
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/dispomim.cgi?id=256000

The closest I've found to a recovery is this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12629249&dopt=Abstract
But the abstract says nothing about etiology of LS in that case.  It could be that the acute illness (bacteria or virus) itself caused symptoms of LS, which gradually receded.

http://humanlifematters.blogspot.com/2007/03/my-last-blog-posting-was-about-small.html
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/mar/07032102.html
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Emilio Gonzales was born 16 months ago blind and deaf.  Though very difficult to definitively diagnose, doctors have said that Emilio also suffers from Leighs Disease, an incurable neurometabolic disorder that affects the central nervous system leading to loss of motor control and frequently to eventual respiratory, kidney and heart failure.  Victims of the disease in its severest form usually have a life expectancy of a few years although some individuals have lived to early teens.

Emilio has been hospitalized for the past three months on a feeding tube and respirator.  His mother, a single mother, has kept a vigil by his bedside  quitting her job and dropping out of school to be with him.  Catarina believes in miracles but is aware that Leighs Disease will probably eventually take the life of her little child.  She disagrees that the hospital should be allowed to decide when that will be.
 
She says, He is my only one and I cannot afford to lose him. I know he's going to die because of Leighs Disease. I accept that. But to take him, that's mainly playing God because you are saying who lives and who dies.
Playing God?  Whoa, slow down there, lady.  How is it playing God to disconnect your kid from the machines, when it's not playing God to hook your son up to those machines to start with?

This is one area where scientific progress has caused us to revert to silliness.  Yes, emotions are strong, real, and should not be treated lightly.  But she's already been given over three months to deal with this emotional quicksand, at taxpayer expense.  It's her problem that she hasn't found her way out and made peace.  Centuries ago, even decades ago, the child would already be dead, and there would be none of this.

Her reasons for keeping him alive seem selfish and based on denial ("I can't afford to lose him") more than on a pro-life philosophy.

Furthermore, the situation seems to be disrupting the mother's life.  She quit her job and quit school.  For what?  If all this leads to an epiphany for her, that's great, and maybe it would make her vigil worthwhile.  But should that kind of quest be sponsored by taxpayers?

A dumb question: where's the father in all this?
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TexasRifleman

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2007, 07:56:09 PM »
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How is it playing God to disconnect your kid from the machines, when it's not playing God to hook your son up to those machines to start with?

That's kinda what I was thinking. 


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Her reasons for keeping him alive seem selfish and based on denial ("I can't afford to lose him") more than on a pro-life philosophy.

Maybe for her, but now the pro-life lobby is jumping in the middle.  They missed the Terry Schaivo thing, they are trying to turn this into another one. 

Perd Hapley

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2007, 08:02:22 PM »
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Barring radical recombinant therapies -- the development of which is protested by many of the same sort of people who are wailing for Emilio to be "saved" from the abominable hospital ethics board -- Emilio doesn't have a chance of ever surviving off of life support.
I did a little searching myself, and couldn't find much information on "radical recombinant therapies" or any protest of the same.  What's the controversy about?   


Quote
Maybe for her, but now the pro-life lobby is jumping in the middle.  They missed the Terry Schaivo thing, they are trying to turn this into another one.

What do you mean by "missed" it?  Pro-life groups were involved in that for years, before it became a widely-known story.  As for "turning it into another one," why would they want to turn this into another loss for their side? 
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Laurent du Var

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2007, 10:49:12 PM »
There are gazillions of stone age old vegetables being held alive by
whatever means  way beyond their natural life time.

A mother who don't want to let her baby go shouldn't be considered a surprise
or unreasonable behaviour. Motherly instincts are the sole reason humanity is still here.

I say hold on to the little guy and when him and his family are save you still can send them back to Mexico.
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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2007, 02:08:05 AM »
I say hold on to the little guy and when him and his family are save you still can send them back to Mexico.

No where does  it say that they are citizens of Mexico, or even not US citizens.

In this case it hardly matters.

My views:

Like Terri, the kid's dead in the ways that matter to me. Brain Dead.  Let the body go with it.  It's just a sack of meat at this point.  The mother can't start her recovery in this case until it happens, as she's clinging on.

Stop wasting taxpayer's money on it as well.  Just because we have the science to extend life doesn't mean that we should, this is one of the prime examples of what's raising health care expenses.  While it might be rare, it's also extremely expensive even for short periods.  If you can get a functional survivor(ie not a vegetable), it's worth it, otherwise, let them go.  In many cases, I feel that we should be concentrating on Quality of Life more than the mere extension of it.

By QoL - I mean the ability to have a life that's one of more than just pain and misery.  Pain and misery are a part of life, but shouldn't be the end of it.  Many patients voluntarily trade a few weeks/months in exchange for days with family, medicated with pain medication in levels toxic to their bodies, reducing their remaining lifespan even further.  But it's with family, and that makes it worth it.

roo_ster

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2007, 03:32:31 AM »
Quote
Seems like mom is hanging on too long to me, but it would be a tough spot.
Emilio is about 17 months old.  He was born deaf and blind, and has been on life support for over 3 months.  Barring radical recombinant therapies -- the development of which is protested by many of the same sort of people who are wailing for Emilio to be "saved" from the abominable hospital ethics board...

...A dumb question: where's the father in all this?
Please enlighten us as to the protests against recombinant therapies.  Neither google.com nor dogpile.com found anything relevant when the both "recombinant therapies" and "protest" were plugged.  Granted, search engines are not the be-all & end-all of human knowledge, but you'd think they'd have at least one hit.

Where is the father?  The odds are that daddy is nowhere to be found.

Forty-five percent of all Hispanic births occur outside of marriage, compared with 24 percent of white births and 15 percent of Asian births. Only the percentage of black out-of-wedlock births68 percentexceeds the Hispanic rate. But the black population is not going to triple over the next few decades.

As if the unmarried Hispanic birthrate werent worrisome enough, it is increasing faster than among other groups. It jumped 5 percent from 2002 to 2003, whereas the rate for other unmarried women remained flat. Couple the high and increasing illegitimacy rate of Hispanics with their higher overall fertility rate, and you have a recipe for unstoppable family breakdown.
...
The fathers of these illegitimate children are often problematic in even more troubling ways. Social workers report that the impregnators of younger Hispanic women are with some regularity their uncles, not necessarily seen as a bad thing by the mothers family. Alternatively, the father may be the boyfriend of the girls mother, who then continues to stay with the grandmother. Older men seek out young girls in the belief that a virgin cannot get pregnant during her first intercourse, and to avoid sexually transmitted diseases.
...
Normally, the fathers, of whatever age, take off. The father may already be married or in prison or doing drugs, says Amanda Gan, director of operations for Tobys House, a maternity home in Dana Point, California. Mona, the 19-year-old parishioner at St. Josephs Church, says that the boys who impregnated her two cousins are nowhere to be found. Her family knows them but doesnt know if they are working or in jail.

The 45% figure is for both immigrants and those who are citizens.  The immigrant generation generally does better than 45% ("better" meaning fewer children born out of wedlock).  The first generation born in the USA has higher illigitimacy, crime, and incarceration rates than their parent immigrants, however.  I guess some might call that assimilation.



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roo_ster

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TexasRifleman

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2007, 03:35:38 AM »
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What do you mean by "missed" it?  Pro-life groups were involved in that for years, before it became a widely-known story.  As for "turning it into another one," why would they want to turn this into another loss for their side?

By "missed it" I mean have not had a "project" to work on. By "turn it into another one" I mean just that, another media spectacle, though probably not on the same scale since the mother, in all likelihood, does not speak English well and would not look good on camera.

I am not sure they consider the Schaivo thing a loss, they brought a lot of attention to their point of view that was never illuminated before.

I am not judging them on their beliefs, but they tend to take a families private pain and make it into a much larger event.

This woman could not possibly have the means to pay the legal fees being racked up here.  Who is footing the bill for that do you think?  The pro lifers. They know the courts will rule against this mother eventually, but the chance to gain some publicity is too tempting so they create this false sense of hope in this poor mothers' mind to further their cause.  That's the only part of the pro-life movement that I don't care for, the tactics.

roo_ster

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2007, 04:38:44 AM »
TexasRifleman:

Do not discount the high probability that you, I, and other Texas taxpayers are footing the bill for the lawsuits...on both sides.  A sharp person who works the system can get the gooberment to pay for their legal counsel when suing the gooberment.  I have seen it before.  Unless you have hard data indicating that it is some pro-life group footing the bill, odds are the taxpayers of Texas are taking it in the face.

I thought the Schaivo case was a mess.  IMO, it was her husband's call, even if he was a premature plug-pulling b@st@rd as some said.  It just goes to the point that choosing the person you marry is a very important decision.  Your life may depend on it.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2007, 05:15:13 AM »

By "missed it" I mean have not had a "project" to work on. By "turn it into another one" I mean just that, another media spectacle, though probably not on the same scale since the mother, in all likelihood, does not speak English well and would not look good on camera.
Thanks for explaining.  I wonder why you think her English is poor.  There are plenty of Gonzales's in Texas, not all of them recent immigrants.  Besides, the poor, struggling minority angle would make her more sympathetic. 

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I am not sure they consider the Schaivo thing a loss, they brought a lot of attention to their point of view that was never illuminated before.

I'm not sure what new attention was brought to their point of view, but that's poor compensation for the negatives.  The media successfully created the impression that Schiavo was in a "persistent vegitative state," something the pro-life side denied and which was devastating to their cause.  Additionally, the politicians who took their side were painfully roasted for sticking their noses where they supposedly didn't belong.  I'm sure this was not the lesson the pro-life groups wanted legislators to learn.  And let's not forget that Schiavo was allowed to die of dehydration.  I'm really interested in what positives this had for the pro-life side. 


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This woman could not possibly have the means to pay the legal fees being racked up here.  Who is footing the bill for that do you think?  The pro lifers. They know the courts will rule against this mother eventually, but the chance to gain some publicity is too tempting so they create this false sense of hope in this poor mothers' mind to further their cause.  That's the only part of the pro-life movement that I don't care for, the tactics.

Thus far, the only tactics you're describing are consciousness-raising and pro bono legal assistance.  Is it possible that this woman is a tool, being manipulated and used?  With our current lack of info, we could so conclude.  If we knew that little about Rosa Parks, we could say that about her, too.  But surely, we know better than to make such snap judgements and presume that such women are ignorant and credulous.  Or if you have more info on this mother, please share.  Until then, you'll have to assume that this woman is simply accepting legal help for the position she already held. 

 
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they tend to take a families private pain and make it into a much larger event.

Which is precisely what you would want if you believed a family member was going to be murdered.  You would want the situation to receive attention from others who might help your loved one.   

In looking for other info, I haven't yet found that those dastardly pro-lifers are controlling this mother.  She also has disability advocates on her side.  I guess they're just using her, too. 


From a "disability-rights" web page:
http://www.jfanow.org/jfanow/index.php?mode=N&id=3190

Gonzales' growing group of supporters includes state lawmakers, right-to-life and disability rights organizations, and even the brother and sister of Terri Schiavo, who died in Florida after a bitter court fight two years ago.


Bob Kafka of Austin, national organizer for the disability rights group Not Dead Yet, latershared letters that organizations, including the National Spinal Cord Injury Association, have written to Gov. Rick Perry urging him to "spare the life" of Emilio, who has been in the pediatric intensive care unit since Dec. 28.

Schiavo's siblings, Suzanne Vitadamo and Bobby Schindler, are aiding in the national search for a hospital that will take Emilio, said Elizabeth Graham, director of Texas Right to Life.


At the Capitol news conference, members of organizations such as Texas Right to Life threw their support behind a bill that would eliminate the 10-day rule and require doctors to treat terminally ill patients until another facility can be found to accept them.
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Vile Nylons

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2007, 05:26:11 AM »
The hippocratic oath and natural selection collide once again. Seems to me the focus should be on mercy and the best for the child rather than salving the emotions and/or self interests of the spectators. At some point tubes and wires and pumps are not a support but rather an insult on a body and a process that should be allowed to run it's natural course. True love sometimes means letting go.  

TexasRifleman

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2007, 05:27:36 AM »
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  I wonder why you think her English is poor.

Because I live in Texas and she's been on the local television off and on for a long time about this.

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I'm really interested in what positives this had for the pro-life side. 

In the straightest terms, without regard for "hurt feelings" this brought a lot of attention to their fight.

People that had never even thought about it before were all of a sudden very interested in the debate.

Not saying the pro life folks wanted that, but it certainly didn't hurt their cause to get some public exposure.

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Is it possible that this woman is a tool, being manipulated and used?  With our current lack of info, we could so conclude.

Again, I live close to this.  This has been going on for a while now in the local media.


Perd Hapley

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Re: Texas spin on "Right to Life"
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2007, 06:23:18 AM »
OK, if you know more about the situation, you may have a better judgement about what's going on.  Just don't complain that pro bono legal and talking to the press are some sort of evil tactics.  Considering that the pro-life side believes it is defending innocents from murder, it is surprising our tactics are so mild. 

As for Schiavo, I'm still not seeing much reason why pro-lifers should be pining for a repeat of their lost battle.  And if it did bring more attention to that issue, I can't see why that's a bad thing.  Overall, conservatives have not shown much skill in using media attention to our benefit.  Ask Bogie.   smiley
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