Author Topic: Healing the rift between police and the public  (Read 17914 times)

Balog

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Healing the rift between police and the public
« on: September 26, 2014, 01:40:06 PM »
http://chrishernandezauthor.com/2014/09/09/healing-the-rift-between-police-and-the-public/

Some good thoughts. One thing he alludes to but does not delve into is the issue of perception. Yes, wearing .mil uniforms and shamaghs and plate carriers etc does no intrinsic harm in and of itself. But there's a reason cops (and the .mil for that matter) wear uniforms, and they really do matter.
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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2014, 01:47:16 PM »
Read it the other night. Not going to happen. Not even much of a start to change things.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

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Tallpine

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2014, 01:52:25 PM »
Quote
Guys, imagine an America where cops wear regular uniforms with body cameras and don’t jack with people for smoking a joint. Imagine how we’d be viewed if we’d only arrest bad guys for hurting others, instead of throwing people in jail for the type of cigarette they smoke.

It's easy if you try.   :lol:
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Balog

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2014, 02:09:19 PM »
Read it the other night. Not going to happen. Not even much of a start to change things.

Meh, it's a societal issue. It'll happen when people want it to.
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

brimic

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2014, 02:23:22 PM »
Some cops are just authoritarian dicks.
I had an experience a few years ago where I invited a friend and his brother in law out out shooting. We had a lot of fun, but my friend later told me that his BIL, a big city cop, who works in the rougher neighborhoods "was shocked at the guns I brought," and "those guns should only be in the hands of police and military." (I brought a few AR-15s, an M1 Garand, and a WWII era sniper rifle).
My friend worked on him for a long time, and eventually he came around to having a much more libertarian viewpoint- maybe just a function of maturing.

A really good experience I've had was at a weekend long carbine class I took last year- the trainers were swat cops, several of the students were swat cops, including the commander of a large local department's swat... A few of them did dress up in helmets and plate carriers and brought thier full auto department issued toys- but everyone of them were A-OK good guys. No 'attitudes' towards us 'civilians', loved to talk about guns and gun rights during lunch breaks.

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KD5NRH

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2014, 02:35:12 PM »
No 'attitudes' towards us 'civilians', loved to talk about guns and gun rights during lunch breaks.

One of the (dwindling number of) good cops here in town thinks that a CHL should be treated as a "priority customer" card, because the holder has already done all they can to avoid being a victim.  Unfortunately, I think he's starting to burn out as the rest of the force is slowly making Gecko 45 look like Andy Griffith by comparison.

Balog

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2014, 02:57:20 PM »
Some cops people are just authoritarian dicks.

FIFY

The real issue is the system that empowers and protects the bad actors.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2014, 06:04:14 PM »
FIFY

The real issue is the system that empowers and protects the bad actors.

^^
This
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

just Warren

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2014, 07:40:08 PM »
You're forced to pay them, you cannot bring a competing organization, they are very hard to fire individually, they are not usually prosecuted for perjury,  they get away with other stuff that would see non-cops in jail and their policies serve them and not the public at large.

This is a recipe for misfeasance, nonfeasance, and malfeasance.

You can't change outcomes just by changing uniforms. You have to change incentives.  And you can't get to there via a governmental (read socialistic) system.


I would disband police departments and let folks hire what physical security or investigative services they think they need on a case-by-case basis.

People would carry arms, higher hire guards, be insured by companies that would hire investigators, and if someone needed tracking down there will be bounty hunters aplenty to do the job.  

You'd get competition, lower costs, higher value, and incompetence and corruption could not last among observant customers.

I would also go to an all-torts system of retributive/restorative justice. No victim, no case.

Also no prisons or jails.  The truly murderous or rape or arson inclined would find themselves being taken care of... in a far less time consuming and costly way.  
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 07:57:49 PM by Warren »
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TommyGunn

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2014, 07:46:18 PM »
Quote
People would carry arms, higher guards, be insured by companies that would hire investigators, and if someone needed tracking down there will be bounty hunters aplenty to do the job. 

"higher?"  Do you mean "hire" as you stated eight words later?  ;)
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2014, 07:50:46 PM »
I MIGHT subcribe to your newletter. If you could pointbto an example of your imaginary system working


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2014, 07:58:15 PM »

"higher?"  Do you mean "hire" as you stated eight words later?  ;)

Fixed!
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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2014, 07:58:41 PM »
I MIGHT subcribe to your newletter. If you could pointbto an example of your imaginary system working


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« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 09:43:29 PM by Ben »
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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2014, 08:06:18 PM »
So thats a no?



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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2014, 08:14:09 PM »
The real issue is the system that empowers and protects the bad actors.

Pretty much.
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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2014, 08:14:52 PM »
Quote
So thats a no?

You are not worth debating. You are a worthless troll who should have been kicked off this site years ago. If there was an "ignore" option I would have used it on you. Since there isn't I'll just be skipping by anything you write in this thread as I do for all of your posts.

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2014, 08:32:22 PM »
In real life I've seen coal camp cops. And then there are the warlords. But I've never seen a decent example of the system you imagine. At one time I believe they did something like it with fire depts in New York with mixed success .
Surely some place has a working large scale system? Or not?


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2014, 08:53:15 PM »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Hawkmoon

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2014, 09:24:04 PM »
Quote
So I’m not always on a cop’s side. Law enforcement isn’t a gang. Loyalty doesn’t override principle.

He lost me right there. Too many police departments do operate like gangs, and more often than not loyalty does override principle.

And he didn't just gloss over, he completely avoided the crux of the problem: The ubiquitous "I am the aw-thaw-ri-tay, you must comply with my commands" attitude that is being taught at police academies all across the country. It's impossible to respect someone who doesn't respect you -- that's basic psychology. And cops aren't going to be respected if they immediately resort to "command voice" mode (repeating the same commands in an ever-louder tone of voice) rather than engage in civil interaction. Sure, when a subject is acting violently or assaulting someone (cop or third party) then the gloves come off. But when it's a mother with kids in the car at a traffic stop -- what's the point of going all Sergeant Hartman on the poor woman?

And then there's the whole issue of using SWAT teams to "serve" search warrants for minor infractions, and treating every search warrant (no matter that the searchee has no criminal history and isn't known to be violent) as an excuse to conduct a no-knock raid.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 09:33:08 PM by Hawkmoon »
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Fitz

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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2014, 09:35:31 PM »
He lost me right there. Too many police departments do operate like gangs, and more often than not loyalty does override principle.

And he didn't just gloss over, he completely avoided the crux of the problem: The ubiquitous "I am the aw-thaw-ri-tay, you must comply with my commands" attitude that is being taught at police academies all across the country. It's impossible to respect someone who doesn't respect you -- that's basic psychology. And cops aren't going to be respected if they immediately resort to "command voice" mode (repeating the same commands in an ever-louder tone of voice) rather than engage in civil interaction. Sure, when a subject is acting violently or assaulting someone (cop or third party) then the gloves come off. But when it's a mother with kids in the car at a traffic stop -- what's the point of going all Sergeant Hartman on the poor woman?

And then there's the whole issue of using SWAT teams to "serve" search warrants for minor infractions, and treating every search warrant (no matter that the searchee has no criminal history and isn't known to be violent) as an excuse to conduct a no-knock raid.

I agree wholeheartedly on the no knock thing. But I havent seen the instant resorting to "command voice" that you describe, not only in any of MY interactions with cops, but in the cops i call friends. I suspect part of that is me not being a fuckface to begin with, and the other part is the relative rarity of that actual tactic compared to folks who complain about it.

It's certainly a problem, i'm just not convinced that it's the problem that folks think it is
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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2014, 09:42:42 PM »
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 09:44:01 PM by Ben »
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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2014, 09:45:35 PM »
Just a reminder - attacking an argument is fine, attacking a member is not (and that goes for baiting a member into it). Most of the thread has not been going there, so it won't be locked yet, but any more attacks and it will be locked.
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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2014, 09:48:40 PM »
I agree wholeheartedly on the no knock thing. But I havent seen the instant resorting to "command voice" that you describe, not only in any of MY interactions with cops, but in the cops i call friends. I suspect part of that is me not being a fuckface to begin with, and the other part is the relative rarity of that actual tactic compared to folks who complain about it.

It's certainly a problem, i'm just not convinced that it's the problem that folks think it is

Unfortunately, I have.  Twice, in simple traffic stops where, each time, the command voice and vitriol started in as soon as the window was rolled down.  But there have been a couple of other stops where civility was the order of the day.
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Re: Healing the rift between police and the public
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2014, 09:53:37 PM »
I MIGHT subcribe to your newletter. If you could pointbto an example of your imaginary system working

The real system that we have sure as hell isn't working  =(
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