Reflections on death

[BrokenPaw]

My brother-in-law died just after midnight on September 17, after fighting for over 18 months with testicular cancer.  He was 34 years old.

I didn't get to know him all that well before he got sick, because he lived in Florida.  I saw him maybe a half dozen times before he found out he had cancer.  After he knew, he moved back up to northern Virginia, so his mother  could help take care of him.  I had a feeling he was not going to recover, even though TC is relatively treatable from what I understand.  The reason I didn't think he was going to recover was because he waited a long time before going to the hospital, ignoring the pain.  In fact, it was his roommate who insisted upon taking him.  So by the time it was diagnosed, his cancer was fairly advanced.

He lived with us (BrokenMa and me) for a month after he got out of the hospital the first time, because he couldn't go up and down stairs at all, and his mom lives in a third-floor walk-up.  After that, we visited him regularly.  So I got to know him pretty well during his last year and a half.  BrokenMa, of course, has known him all his life, because he was her little brother.

The viewing was this past Thursday evening, and I went both out of respect for him and as support for my wife and her family.  I noticed something there; there was a lot of praying going on, but there was no feeling in it at all.  This group of people (most of them extended family and pretty much all of them Catholic) was standing around repeating the "Hail Mary" prayer over and over, so fast that the words weren't even intelligible.  

Friday was the funeral, and it was led by a pastor of some protestant sect (I don't know which -- I met the guy on the day of the viewing -- but he wasn't Catholic).  Three people spoke at the funeral:  The pastor, BrokenMa, and the father-in-law of the deceased's older brother.  Two of the speakers are devoutly Christian, and one (my lady-wife) is pagan.

The thing that struck me about the whole situation was how...empty all of the Christians there seemed to be.  The pastor made mention that the deceased had accepted Jesus as his Personal Saviour and Lord some few days before he passed, and told the assembled people that his place in heaven was assured.  Then he went on to tell us all how the Lord would provide for us "in this terrible hour of crushing need".  That's a word-for-word quote, by the way.  The other man who spoke told us that we'd all better find Jesus, or else we'd never see the deceased again.

BrokenMa spoke about her brother, about how he was an amazing artist, and a musician, and a loving person, who took care of people and animals.  She talked about his ability at landscaping, and his wit and wisdom.  She talked about who he was before he became sick, and reminded us to remember him like that instead of remembering him wasted away and in pain, the way he was on that final night as we stood around him in his last moments.

The difference in philosophy was astounding; neither of the men who spoke said a thing about the life of the deceased, except insofar as to announce that he was Right with God.  Neither of them spoke about who he had been, reminding people that he was once a person with brilliant ability and talent; they only spoke of how terrible everyone must feel now that he's gone.

I am not trying to bash Christianity here; I'm truly wondering.  When I was Christian (10 years of my life), death as a concept was not frightening to me because I believed I knew where I was going, and my everyday faith was full of feeling.  Now, I'm no longer a Christian, and I still do not fear death, because I believe that it is a part of the natural cycle, as much as birth is.  

What I don't understand is, if one's faith is not a comfort, what point is it to believe?  And if talking to your God cannot evoke profound feeling in your heart, why would you bother?

The Christians at the viewing and the funeral seemed completely lost at this man's death, and yet they're the ones who believe that (as a result of the faith he professed and that they share) he is in Paradise, now.  Those of us pagans at the services seemed much more able to cope with his passing, even though we personally think more in terms of reincarnation and another trip 'round the path.

As I say, I am not trying to bash.  I am trying to understand.  Thoughts?

Namaste,
-BP

[Nightfall]

Unfortunately, I've had somewhat similar experiences with Christian pastors at funerals. At my grandfather's funeral, the pastor spent a couple minutes telling us he had accepted Jesus or whatever, and would go to Heaven. There were no further personal comments about him. The pastor then spent the majority of his time telling us how we would all go to hell if we didn't do likewise, and how we needed to save our souls. Almost the exact same situation happened again at a friend's mother's funeral. This time we did hear one or two good things about her life, but in the end, we mostly heard about how we needed to be like her, accept Christ, or go to hell. Nobody, Christian or likewise seemed comforted. To be honest, the burden seemed to weigh harder on those present. Rather than finding comfort in their belief, all they got was a reminder of the work they must do to be square with the man upstairs. Not quite what I was expecting, but perhaps what we have is the exception rather than the rule. Between my SO's grandfather dying, and my other grandfather being diagnosed with cancer, I may well have more experiences with this issue either way. *sigh*

[Stickjockey]

The Christians at the viewing and the funeral seemed completely lost at this man's death, and yet they're the ones who believe that (as a result of the faith he professed and that they share) he is in Paradise, now.

The sadness is not for the dead; it's for the living. They are sad not because she's no longer in the world, but because she's no longer in their world. Most of those people lost a brother, a son, husband(?)- a devastating loss, to be sure. In the moment, it can be emotionally draining.

I wish more people could find more comfort and strength in their faith, whatever it may be. It seems to me that many people that one finds in Church on Sunday morning think that that's all there is to it. They go, say what should be said when it should be said, bow their heads at the appropriate times and then go their merry way, secure in the idea that that's all there is. The problem is that Faith is more than just words and gestures. It is, like Citizenship, a burning desire to live up to the tenets of that system. You want to see Faith at it's apogee? Look up the Siege of Malta in 1565. Those guys (on both sides) were absolutely convinced that God was with them. As such, they were driven to almost superhuman feats of gallantry; the story reads like high fantasy.

[Guest]

I don't have any answers for you but you'll be in my thoughts.

[BrokenPaw]

The sadness is not for the dead; it's for the living. They are sad not because she's no longer in the world, but because she's no longer in their world. Most of those people lost a brother, a son, husband(?)- a devastating loss, to be sure. In the moment, it can be emotionally draining.

SJ, Yeah, I can understand the sadness because of their own personal loss.  We were all sad that he was gone.  I'm talking about the almost complete desolation that most of them seemed to be feeling.  ::shrug::  It just struck me as odd that the people who professed the strongest faith in God were the ones who had the most difficult time dealing with his passing, and the ones (us Pagans) that the pastor was pointedly singling out when he said, "We can call on God to support us during this terrible hour of crushing need" were the ones who didn't seem to need that support.

The other thing that I noticed, as I said, was the hollow emptiness of their prayers.  I'm not really the praying type, myself, since I don't tend to personify Deity.  But when the rare occasion arises that I do feel the need to talk to the Spirit, I feel it, it's important to me;  it's at least as impactful as talking to another person.  The way these people prayed, it was as if they were just trying to get done with it, so they could go home.  It was like they'd called their mother on the phone and said "Himomhow'veyoubeeneverythingisfineohwaitthere'sthisonethingIreallyneedmoneyrightnow
soifyoucouldpleasesendsomethatwouldbegreatokthanksbye" in a flat emotionless monotone.  I don't really know what to think about that.  If your God isn't a person you can talk to, why bother talking, and if He's not someone worthy of at least speaking to politely, then why would you bother worshiping Him?

Sometimes people make very little sense to me.

Namaste,
BP

Edited to say:  Thank you, Barbara, I appreciate it.  I'm actually doing fine.  If you could keep his father in your thoughts, I imagine he could use the support; he's the one who took it hardest of all.

[Werewolf]

When one considers that Christianity is a religion based on the tortured death of its icon and his subsequent resurrection; that for thousands of years that same religion used and continues to use fear to control its followers what else can one expect but hollow words from its adherents at a solemn ceremony to mark the passing of one of its own.

Your wife though celebrates life - and that is how it should be. Cherish her and the joy she brings to you and others.

[The Rabbi]

Why is this thread called "Reflections on Death"?  It seems to be more "Reflections on Christians I have known and their wrong-headed beliefs and hypocrisy".

[mhdishere]

BrokenPaw,
I'll try to provide some answers as a Christian, for what it's worth.

While "feeling" is an outgrowth of faith it's not faith, and it's not a requirement of faith.  You love your wife even when you're quarrelling with her and don't "feel" loving toward her.

When I've been in intense prayer over a period of time I often find myself getting numb.  That's the time I need to KEEP praying.  Prayer isn't about me, it's about God and God using my prayers.  The most difficult prayers are those when you get absolutely no sense of God's presense, when you wonder if you're just talking to a brick wall.  Prayer is WORK, it can and will make you tired.  What becomes important isn't the feelings you get as you pray but the intent with which you pray.  This goes by different names, some people call it spiritual dryness, some call it a dark night of the soul, but the effect is the same, you get no feedback from your prayers.

As far as faith being a comfort, I discussed this with my own pastor when I was a new Christian on the anniversary of my mother's death.  I was hurting and thought I shouldn't be, I believed my mother was in a better place and I thought I should be happy for her.  He explained to me that, first, feeling bad isn't bad, it's a sign that I loved my mother.  Second, I missed her.  If my mother had left the country and moved to (say) Norway where she was going to have an absolutely wonderful life, but if for some reason I couldn't ever see her or talk to her again, I'd miss her even though I knew she'd be happy.  Faith can reassure you that your deceased loved on is in a better place, but it doesn't mean you don't miss the person.

[BrokenPaw]

Rabbi,

It's called "Reflections on Death" because that's what I called it when I wrote it, and my intention was not, and is not, to bash Christians.  mdishere seems to have gotten the point, though perhaps you have not.  In my post, I contrasted Christians and Pagans because they were the two groups present.  If you'd like, I can go back in time and haul a Sikh and a Buddhist in off the street to see how they react.  Will that be egalitarian enough for you?  

I was asking an honest question.  I was asking why it was that people were so fervent about a faith that seemed not to be a comfort for them.  I wasn't calling them wrong-headed, I wasn't accusing them of hypocrisy; those were words you introduced into the thread.

I've noticed something, Rabbi.  I've been paying attention to your posts, and you seem entirely too willing to come in and spill vitriol all over someone else's thoughts, and you very rarely add something positive while you do so.  If you don't have something useful to add to a thread (and I'm typing very slowly here so I won't confuse you): don't. post. in. that. thread.  If you don't like what's on the TV, change the channel.  If you don't like my thread's title, go read a different thread to crash.  

mdishere,

Thank you for your response.  I don't really understand why prayer is work.  As I understood it (from back in the day), it was supposed to be an unburdening, a sharing of thoughts with God.  Perhaps I never got the hang of it, and perhaps that's why the Christian faith never ultimately clicked with me.  Probably I was doing it wrong...

I understand that feeling is not a requirement to faith, but it's just difficult for me to comprehend having a relationship with a Deity, and not having any feeling associated with that.  I can't have a relationship with another person if there's no feeling there, after all.  When I was Christian, I was one of the more...hmm...enthusiastic types.  Very evangelical, and very into what I believed.  It was emotionally very powerful.  I'd leave church exhausted, not in a "I've been at the office doing nothing but I feel drained" way, but rather in a "I've been mountain climbing and I feel exhilarated but now I'm bone-tired" way.  I guess that my own personal spirituality is strongly tied to my emotions.  I suppose I assumed that everyone had something similar.

Rabbi's snipes notwithstanding, I'm trying to understand the nature of other people's faith here.

-BP

[The Rabbi]

You're joking, right?

Every post you have comments on how "empty" the Christians at the funeral were.  They were "lost" at the funeral.  You contrasted the joy in life that the pagans had with the moroseness of the Christians.  These comments invited Werewolf's post about Christianity as controlling its adherents through fear, a comment you did not reject in any way.
And you don't call this bashing?  I would hate to see what you think bashing is.

[BrokenPaw]

Rabbi,

I was asking a question.  If that's too difficult for you to handle, then your chosen moniker is perhaps a bit pretentious.

I was asking why these people seemed to feel so empty, if they had a faith so strong.  I was asking an honest question.  Until you can answer it, you have nothing more to add to this conversation.

As for Werewolf's comments, are you actually so bereft of logical thought that you would attempt to hold me accountable for what someone else said?  Werewolf posted what he believes.  Who am I to tell him that he's wrong?  How does "failing to refute a viewpoint that Rabbi doesn't like" equate to "bashing Christians"?

If I don't go out on the street to fight crime, and prevent rapes thereby, am I now a rapist?  So it would seem, by your assertion.

Rabbi, if you don't like the subject of this thread, be a big enough man to leave it alone.  Don't act like a petulant child and decide that because you don't like the sand-castle someone else is building, you're going to pee in the sandbox so that no one will want to play there.

If you have further comment to make to me on the subject, please make it over e-mail, or via PM on THR.  I shall not respond to you in this thread again.

Namaste,
-BP

[Stickjockey]

Respectfully, I'm not sure that it's Christianity=empty/Paganism=full that's being discussed here, but rather people's attitudes toward each and how they affect the lives of the people involved.

Maybe a more appropriate title would have been, "Reflections on people's attitudes toward Faith."

[BrokenPaw]

SJ,

You may be right.  And if I'd realized the direction the thread was going to go, I might have titled it that way.  But as far as I know, only Oleg can re-title a thread, so we'll have to live with it as posted unless he sees fit to intervene.

In any case, mistitled or not, I think there's a valuable conversation that can be had over this subject, and I'm grateful to all of the people who are contributing their views to the topic at hand.

Namaste,
-BP

[The Rabbi]

So your question is this:

What I don't understand is, if one's faith is not a comfort, what point is it to believe?  And if talking to your God cannot evoke profound feeling in your heart, why would you bother?

First, since you focused on the people who were at the funeral, maybe you should be asking them.
Second, people profess a faith for a variety of reasons.  Among them are, upbriinging, habit, intellectual understanding, emotional attraction.  Some people are given to profound emotional feeling and others aren't.  Some people are given to it at certain times and not others.  The funeral of a 34 year old man who died of cancer is a difficult time and tends not to bring out the best in people.  That some people did well with it is testament to their character.  That some didnt is to be expected.  That some people find comfort in reciting formulas is not a blameworthy thing--it helps them cope with the grief.  Ritual has a way of doing that.  That is a comfort of faith, and not a bad thing at all.

[mhdishere]

BrokenPaw,
Prayer is, at its root, a method of forming a relationship with God.  Remember when you and your wife were dating?  You took the time to get to know each other.  That takes work, it takes effort.  Even if you fell in love quickly, the process of getting to know each other took time.  The process most likely continues to this day.

Something I touched on above when I talked about dryness is that some Christians start to think that the feelings they get when they pray mean that the prayer is effective, so they judge the effectiveness of the prayer by the intensity of feeling.  Since the feelings are enjoyable they can begin to pray not to form their relationship with God, but in order to get those feelings.  Recall the first Commandment, not to have any other gods before God.  A Christian in such a situation will often find the feelings taken away, and at such a time the Christian ought to continue to pray with faith that the prayers are heard and are effective.

It's really a lot like marriage.  I've been married for almost six years.  Our daily life together isn't like our Honeymoon was, even though I love my wife now more than ever.  

There's a reason why the image of the Bible of the relationship between Christ and the church is that of a bride to her Bridegroom.  It's all about the relationship, about the formation of a loving bond.

[Tallpine]

Having at last escaped from the christian cult, I have informed my wife that I definitely do NOT want some !#$%^&* preacher hammering people about "youneedtoacceptjesusrightnoworyou'regoingtohell" at MY funeral!

Personally, I would like a pyre out in the woods

[BrokenPaw]

Personally, I would like a pyre out in the woods

That's more or less exactly what I would like, myself.  But if there's one thing that my brother-in-law's passing has taught me about the legal system, it's that there's an awful lot of regulation about being dead.  Apparently Virginia law is that the body must be embalmed, even if it's going to be cremated, which makes no sense to me at all.  But since it must be embalmed, it can only be released from the hospital morgue to a known funeral home.  Once it's there, the funeral home will only take it to a known cemetary or crematorium.  I don't think it's even possible within the law, to be burned on a pyre on your own land.  I could be wrong, of course, and other states will likely vary, but that's what it looks like in Virginia.

-BP

[DrAmazon]

This group of people (most of them extended family and pretty much all of them Catholic) was standing around repeating the "Hail Mary" prayer over and over, so fast that the words weren't even intelligible.  



The group was praying the Rosary.  When one is praying the rosary you are also reflecting on either one of the 5 sets of "Mysteries", or reflecting on other spiritual topics.  When praying the rosary, it isn't so much the Hail Marys themselves, but the reflection that the form of prayer can inspire/allow.  It is a lot like a meditation.

Sometimes when praying the rosary one can get into that meditation, sometimes you're just reciting.  I consider either way to at least be some time I've spent outside of the bustle of the day, making time for prayer.

[BrokenPaw]

The group was praying the Rosary.  When one is praying the rosary you are also reflecting on either one of the 5 sets of "Mysteries", or reflecting on other spiritual topics.  When praying the rosary, it isn't so much the Hail Marys themselves, but the reflection that the form of prayer can inspire/allow.  It is a lot like a meditation.

Ah, OK.  Not being Catholic myself, I never understood the point of the Rosary's repetitive nature.  But as a meditation tool, it makes a lot of sense.  Thank you, DA.

Namaste,
-BP

Edited because I can't spell.

[Stickjockey]

Personally, I would like a pyre out in the woods...

And for the $5,000 account set up for this to be opened and eaten/drunk/shot up at the send-off party!

[mfree]

brokenpaw,

Toss the ashes onto a tremendous bonfire. That's close enough in meaning

Doesn't really matter anyways, when I'm gone I'm gone, i subscribe to the "Hi, I'm a box for a soul" theory of afterlife processing. May Charon crack me open like an egg and throw me in the boat, do whatever with the shell.