Genital mutilation ban ruled unconstitutional

[MechAg94]

Ditto.  On the one hand, what business is it of the government?  On the other hand, it could be considered the legitimate business of the government if there's a legitimate health concern.

But humanklnd survived umpteen thousands/millions of years before the concept was developed.

All I know is it was a requirement of the Health Department in New York City in 1939.

Up yours.  I want my foreskin back.  

Terry

By that logic, no child abuse or spousal abuse is the business of the govt. 

But then, I didn't start this thread so some of you could get on your soap box about male circumcision. 

[dogmush]

By that logic, no child abuse or spousal abuse is the business of the govt. 

No business of the Federal government.   I think that argument could be made.  The feds have (or are supposed to have) pretty limited powers with regards to stuff like criminal law.  Shoehorning everything they can think of into the Commerce Clause has ended up being a bad idea.

[MechAg94]

No business of the Federal government.   I think that argument could be made.  The feds have (or are supposed to have) pretty limited powers with regards to stuff like criminal law.  Shoehorning everything they can think of into the Commerce Clause has ended up being a bad idea.

I can live with keeping the Feds out it.  It would be nice if Federal Judges would recognize we shouldn't stretch the Commerce Clause with regard to other laws and regulations. 

We do need to be specific when talking about this stuff.  If they want to outlaw this practice, they need to be specific about what they are outlawing so the law is also clear. 

[230RN]

By that logic, no child abuse or spousal abuse is the business of the govt.  

But then, I didn't start this thread so some of you could get on your soap box about male circumcision.  

Didn't anybody read "On the other hand" in my post?  I, too, was of two minds on the matter.

"By that logic, no child abuse or spousal abuse is the business of the govt."\

Don't put words in my mouth.  That's an unworthy frequent practice of some people on this board.

And jumping on me for dramatically objecting to my own circumcision is not fair.  That decision should have been left to my parents.  Neither of whom, by the way, were culturally dedicated to circumcision.  IOW, not Jewish, to make it plain.

And, and, and, the title of this thread related to genital mutilation anyway.

Humph!

Terry

[gunsmith]

I'm against it.
its barbaric, should be outlawed because children have no informed consent.
I have zero problem with it being outlawed at the fed level.
before i even think about "why/why not"
i was that dammned misdo DV no gun clause removed , if that lautenberg crud is legal so should banning all genital mutilation of kids

[Perd Hapley]

Us Christians have remained silent on circumcision to a large extent because being opposed to it somehow might seem to indict God.

  Really? No, we've been silent because no one ever informed us it was a problem. I have yet to emerge from a church service, and be swarmed by reporters asking me to condemn circumcision. Does this happen where you live? I've heard of religious conventions and synods debating homosexuality and the role of women in church, but I haven't heard of circumcision being up for debate.

So, yeah, we've been silent because no one's asking us to speak about it. Besides, it was my impression that a lot of Christians practice it. I've no idea if that's true.

And, yeah, indicting God is something religious people would like to avoid. So pardon me if I'm not going to accuse God of ordering His chosen people to mutilate their boys.

Oh, and can you imagine how quickly the Establishment would close ranks to protect Muslims and Jews, if the mean, old Christians wanted to take away their circumcision?

That’s a poor excuse as even the Bible dispensed with the practice over 2000 years ago.

Over 2000 years ago puts us in Old Testament territory, but I assume you're talking about the New Testament. The NT never declares circumcision to be wrong, except from the perspective of Christians placing themselves under the Mosaic Law, rather than trusting Christ alone for salvation.

It’s a Jewish religious practice that served its purposes of health and separation from other people’s in pre-modern times.

Much like the Second Amendment, which served its purpose before we had the National Guard.

[Ron]

Chopping little kids genitals should be a problem.

Plenty of Christians are upset about the Islamic version commited against little girls. Take that to its logical conclusion and stop justifying the practice when baby boys are “modified” for no good reason.

How did a religious rite become common place in hospitals in the USA and why would Christians go along with it? Probably poor science or advocacy “science”. Regardless it should be abolished in the USA.

Yes, the New Testament did away with any proscription to get circumcised, regardless of my hyperbole on the timeline. It serves no purpose.

Comparing it to the 2nd amendment is stupid.

[Firethorn]

Chopping little kids genitals should be a problem.

Plenty of Christians are upset about the Islamic version commited against little girls. Take that to its logical conclusion and stop justifying the practice when baby boys are “modified” for no good reason.

Okay, I may be mistaken, but here's what I've heard on the issue:
1.  FGM isn't equivalent to circumcision on boys.  They say that the male equivalent would be lopping off the glans(tip) of the penis.  A "true" female version would be touching the clitorial hood, but they often go after the clitoral glans.  Reading up, this probably isn't as bad as removing the entire glans on a male, but would you be happy with the top 1/4" of your penis being chopped off, as opposed to the whole inch?

2.  Circumcision, from what I remember, seemed to catch on in the USA due to the horrors of trench warfare during WWI, reinforced by WWII with concerns about disease and infection.  An uncut penis is fine in modern society. I'm not aware of any significant religious drive for infant circumcision. Remember, the Jews do it later in life.   

[Ron]

Okay, I may be mistaken, but here's what I've heard on the issue:
1.  FGM isn't equivalent to circumcision on boys.  They say that the male equivalent would be lopping off the glans(tip) of the penis.  A "true" female version would be touching the clitorial hood, but they often go after the clitoral glans.  Reading up, this probably isn't as bad as removing the entire glans on a male, but would you be happy with the top 1/4" of your penis being chopped off, as opposed to the whole inch?

2.  Circumcision, from what I remember, seemed to catch on in the USA due to the horrors of trench warfare during WWI, reinforced by WWII with concerns about disease and infection.  An uncut penis is fine in modern society. I'm not aware of any significant religious drive for infant circumcision. Remember, the Jews do it later in life.  

Jews practice infant circumcision and I believe it’s offered to parents of newborns as an option in most hospitals.

I agree with you, there is no medical case for the practice.

I agree with you that fgm is barbaric and is worse than circumcision.

[Pb]

I actually agree with the court that a federal ban on FGM is a violation of the 10th amendment.

It should be banned at the state level in all 50 states, however, with harsh penalties applied.

[Perd Hapley]

Comparing it to the 2nd amendment is stupid.

Maybe. It can't be as stupid as outlawing a medical procedure and religious ceremony that we've been fine with for a long time, just because we've arbitrarily decided it has "served its purpose," and is no longer necessary. That would be a good reason to voluntarily refrain from the practice, but it's not a good reason to initiate a persecution of observant Jews.

Chopping little kids genitals should be a problem.

Plenty of Christians are upset about the Islamic version commited against little girls. Take that to its logical conclusion and stop justifying the practice when baby boys are “modified” for no good reason.

How did a religious rite become common place in hospitals in the USA and why would Christians go along with it? Probably poor science or advocacy “science”. Regardless it should be abolished in the USA.

Yes, the New Testament did away with any proscription to get circumcised, regardless of my hyperbole on the timeline. It serves no purpose.

Hyperbole? Yes. But it's also reminiscent of the Left's current war on gender. Let's look at the parallels with the Left's marriage-busting strategy. First, you declare the law can't recognize any difference between men and women, on an issue where it clearly ought to see a difference. You use that to assert that any related, gender-specific legal arrangement must be gender-neutral. Next, anyone who doesn't side with you against the newly-fabricated atrocity is a horrible person, on the wrong side of history.

The left seriously wants to dump civic nationalism so all traditional cultural practices must be subverted or abolished.

Indeed. Circumcison may be a minority practice, but it's been acceptable in our culture. Altering young girls genitalia hasn't been. We don't have to change that. We're allowed to have a culture.

[Ron]

Maybe. It can't be as stupid as outlawing a medical procedure and religious ceremony that we've been fine with for a long time, just because we've arbitrarily decided it has "served its purpose," and is no longer necessary. That would be a good reason to voluntarily refrain from the practice, but it's not a good reason to initiate a persecution of observant Jews.

Well, we are probably going to end up with both and our tolerance of one will be used to demand tolerance of the other.

Hyperbole? Yes. But it's also reminiscent of the Left's current war on gender. Let's look at the parallels with the Left's marriage-busting strategy. First, you declare the law can't recognize any difference between men and women, on an issue where it clearly ought to see a difference. You use that to assert that any related, gender-specific legal arrangement must be gender-neutral. Next, anyone who doesn't side with you against the newly-fabricated atrocity is a horrible person, on the wrong side of history.

One may be worse by degree but they are the same in kind. Both involve modifying the genitals of babies for no medically necessary reason. Your above paragraph is a hot mess of logical fallacies. Stay on point.

Indeed. Circumcison may be a minority practice, but it's been acceptable in our culture. Altering young girls genitalia hasn't been. We don't have to change that. We're allowed to have a culture.

If it becomes an issue of both or neither, neither is the right choice.
It is Jewish practice that seeped into our culture with the massive immigration of Jewish folks. There is nothing American about it at all. There was a time when it was sold to the public as a health issue and now we know that isn’t true. Muslim Americans that favor FGM will hammer that point in court and demand equal protection.

I’m afraid we will end up with both.

[freakazoid]

One may be worse by degree but they are the same in kind.

As has been shown, no, they are quite clearly not the same.

It is Jewish practice that seeped into our culture with the massive immigration of Jewish folks.

Yeah, those damn Jews and their culture amiright? It's all the Juice I tell ya!...

There is nothing American about it at all.

Yeah, something practiced by not just Jews but Christians, not like Christianity is related to Judaism or anything, as well and heavily in America. Totally not American.

[Ron]

This weird defense of circumcision is nothing short of a mass delusion.

I’m pretty sure we’re the only first world nation outside of Israel that engages in such a weird ritual.

At least they have a religious justification for the practice.

All I can figure is Doctors started recommending it for health reasons, which we now know are false or no longer applicable due to first world conditions.

Hopefully our delusion that this is ok doesn’t hinder outlawing FGM.

[Perd Hapley]

Well, we are probably going to end up with both and our tolerance of one will be used to demand tolerance of the other.

If we keep insisting on this failed idea that government can be a neutral referee, allowing equal freedom to every cultural group that shows up, then sure. For a whole host of reasons much more important than genital body-mods, we need to go back to the understanding that nations have cultures, some aspects of which affect our laws.

Your above paragraph is a hot mess of logical fallacies.

Such as?

It is Jewish practice that seeped into our culture with the massive immigration of Jewish folks. There is nothing American about it at all.

Don't be obtuse. No one's claiming that circumcision is right up there with baseball and Black Friday violence, as a bedrock of American culture. I'm simply acknowledging (as you also acknowledge in your own way) that circumcision is something we've viewed very differently than FGM.

There was a time when it was sold to the public as a health issue and now we know that isn’t true. Muslim Americans that favor FGM will hammer that point in court and demand equal protection.

This is another parallel to same-sex marriage. People making absurd demands for pretended rights should simply be shrugged off.

[Perd Hapley]

This weird defense of circumcision is nothing short of a mass delusion.

I’m pretty sure we’re the only first world nation outside of Israel that engages in such a weird ritual.

Would we not be alone, or almost alone, among first-world nations, if we banned circumcision? Apparently some communist regimes have banned it, but it seems to be tolerated everywhere else.

[HeroHog]

What about Piercing, Tattoos, Ear gauges, breast reduction, liposuction and cosmetic surgery? Those are all MOSTLY non-medically necessary surgeries. Many of them are WAY more risky and potentially life changing, either good OR bad, than cutting off "excessive dick skin."

By the same token, INVOLUNTARY FGM warrants an "equal" procedure if not that AND a hanging for whoever put that woman through that!

PS: I've been "cut" since infancy so I don't miss it and it was years before I even knew about what it was all about in the first place!
I have also had my left ear pierced, twice and a large tat on my right shoulder in memory of a dear friend/my guitar player

[Hawkmoon]

Jews practice infant circumcision and I believe it’s offered to parents of newborns as an option in most hospitals.

I was born in 1944. My mother told me more than once that she and my father had to argue with the doctor and the hospital to NOT have me circumcised. (They were both Protestants.)

[Firethorn]

What about Piercing, Tattoos, Ear gauges, breast reduction, liposuction and cosmetic surgery? Those are all MOSTLY non-medically necessary surgeries. Many of them are WAY more risky and potentially life changing, either good OR bad, than cutting off "excessive dick skin."

Mostly done on informed, consenting, even eagerly desiring adult patients.  I'm sure most of us don't object to somebody getting a circumcision as an adult if they want one, for whatever reason.

It's doing it to children who can't consent and can have problems later in life like difficulty enjoying sex from it where people have a problem.

[MechAg94]

This weird defense of circumcision is nothing short of a mass delusion.

I’m pretty sure we’re the only first world nation outside of Israel that engages in such a weird ritual.

At least they have a religious justification for the practice.

All I can figure is Doctors started recommending it for health reasons, which we now know are false or no longer applicable due to first world conditions.

Hopefully our delusion that this is ok doesn’t hinder outlawing FGM.

I was thinking more about your odd campaigning against circumcision.  You seem to be against it much more strongly than anyone else is for it. 

[Ron]

I was thinking more about your odd campaigning against circumcision.  You seem to be against it much more strongly than anyone else is for it.  

Actually the only time I’ve ever discussed it with anyone has been in a few random threads over many years.

Truthfully I don’t recall the subject ever coming up outside of a forum board.

The reason I used the term “mass delusion” is because I’m currently reading a famous book called “Extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds”. This subject fits the premise of the book pretty well, I think.

Everybody gets uncomfortable when you start asking “why do it?”. That should give folks pause for reflection.

I’ve been digging here just to see what the post rationalizations are for an otherwise irrational procedure.
Irrational that is unless there is a religious component like there is throughout the Middle East. Surely someone could explain the point behind such a widespread practice. I guess I was wrong.

I’m not aware of any other cultures that practice widespread circumcision other than the USA and Israel, but I’ve not really researched the subject.

FGM seems to be a Middle East thing primarily also.

Maybe my trying to be consistent on the subject of the unessesary modification of babies genitals seems overwrought but really all I’m doing is throwing things against the wall to see what sticks.

[Perd Hapley]

I got curious, and apparently, rates of circumcision in the U.S. have been as high as 88%, and the rate was 77% in 2014.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/274944.php

https://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/news/20110901/circumcision-rates-are-dropping-in-the-us#1


And FWIW.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/circumcision/about/pac-20393550

I just skimmed the above, but I didn't see anything about the supposed health benefits of circumcision being some kind of hoax, or something thoroughly discredited by current research. Where can a brother find such info?

[Firethorn]

Jews practice infant circumcision and I believe it’s offered to parents of newborns as an option in most hospitals.

Huh, wikipedia agrees with you, I just remember reading somewhere that it was more a coming of age ceremony.  Oh well, something to remember for next time.

[Perd Hapley]

Huh, wikipedia agrees with you, I just remember reading somewhere that it was more a coming of age ceremony.  Oh well, something to remember for next time.

Also according to Wikipedia, some Muslims and Copts practice it that way. I recall reading that Muslim men are circumcised at 13, to follow Ishmael's example.