Author Topic: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.  (Read 12411 times)

The Annoyed Man

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2008, 05:59:01 PM »
текумцех шерман is at the head of the column marching to the sea.
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MechAg94

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2008, 06:30:08 PM »
Wait a second here:

Not that Russia is a good place...but here're the facts as I can make them out:

The Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia.  If anything, they want to be part of Russia.

Georgian troops attacked South Ossetia.

Russia is now attacking Georgia, screaming that Georgia attacked its allies in Ossetia (who apparently actually do not want to be part of Georgia)...

And Russia started the war? I should be rooting for Georgia to force a state to join Georgia why?
Have you even read the posts on this thread? 
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wmenorr67

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2008, 08:00:11 PM »
Wait a second here:

Not that Russia is a good place...but here're the facts as I can make them out:

The Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia.  If anything, they want to be part of Russia.

Georgian troops attacked South Ossetia.

Russia is now attacking Georgia, screaming that Georgia attacked its allies in Ossetia (who apparently actually do not want to be part of Georgia)...

And Russia started the war? I should be rooting for Georgia to force a state to join Georgia why?
Have you even read the posts on this thread? 

Does he ever read posts, even his own?
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De Selby

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2008, 08:23:36 PM »


Have you even read the posts on this thread? 

Yes, including the title: "...Russia has started a war"

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

seeker_two

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2008, 04:42:45 AM »
This is kinda like asking if the USA will declare war on Canada if they don't let Quebec secede......
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

roo_ster

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2008, 05:06:43 AM »
Or like the Austrian Corporal attacking the Czechs on behalf of the Sudetenland.

Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.

Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.
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roo_ster

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Manedwolf

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2008, 08:48:39 AM »
Gee, those ammo tins look familiar. Wonder if they cuss at the can opener they come with, too...


roo_ster

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2008, 08:55:10 AM »
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2008/08/no-its-not-good.html

No, It's Not Good At All
Posted By Laughing_Wolf

The last couple of weeks have been intense, and the hours long, so think of what follows as something of a day journal note a la the Original Blog. I know that my lack of time is a problem for some, but this is some food for thought that I think needs to be out there as a follow-up to COB6's posts here and here, even though I don't have the time to flesh it out as I would like. For those that want or need to know, I used to write about the Soviet Union -- in particular it's space-related activities -- and did as my Master's thesis a tome entitled The Soviet Watchers: A Directory of Western Observers of Soviet Space Efforts. That said, here are the day notes on why I think the invasion of Georgia is not good at all. Especially with news this morning that Georgia has formally declared a state of war to exist, and that the Russians appear to have sortied portions or all of its Black Sea fleet (possibly aiming at Abkhazia) and claim to now control the capital of South Ossetia. Note also the Clinton-era pols rushing to declare Georgia dead as a potential NATO member and not worthy of much support...

Even though Georgia was a part of Russia and then the Soviet Union, there has always been a bit of friction there. Under Russia, it was seen as a buffer against non-Christians and other threats. Under the Soviet Union, it still served that role but was also open to a larger exploitation -- which has helped create part of the situation now faced. Even the ghost of Stalin plays into this, as he was not Russian but a Georgia boy (yee-haw) who outmaneuvered both the Moscow and St. Petersburg factions to take control. That is something neither faction has ever forgotten, and in some ways never forgiven.

It is worth noting that Putin, who is in charge no matter what title he currently holds, is of the St. Petersburg faction, and is the first to come back to leadership from said faction in quite a while. Interestingly, what he is doing right now in Georgia is more in the Moscow style, but with some interesting fillips that are St. Petersburg in origin, IMO.

This is nothing less than a direct challenge to the U.S. and an effort to break the Georgian government so as to put back into power the pro-Russia group (or even under direct control). The surface cause is one that has been built up over the last several years, with Russia pushing as hard as it could get away with internationally to put in "peacekeepers" openly and arm/support the rebels not terribly clandestinely. There have been several previous attempts to spark a reaction from Georgia, including direct incursions into Georgian territory, incursions into Georgian airspace, and even attacks on Georgian aircraft and other assets. Behind it lies several factors.

First, there is the fact that Russia wants to control the border states just as it did before. They have not been shy about it in some of the other states, but Georgia and Ukraine both had something the others didn't: resources. The poorer countries with no major resources, lack of communications (and interest in them by the world community), and no major prospects were fairly easy to control. Georgia and Ukraine, however, have a variety of other resources and have more developed relations with the rest of the world. That said, Russia tried very openly and even ham-handedly to control them and to rig elections so that the Russian-controlled factions would win. They need those states as a buffer, and have not taken the failures there with anything approaching good grace.

Second, there are some strategic resources at play, including oil. Remember that Georgia was a major part of the old Silk Road, which interestingly enough today could almost be thought of as the jihad road given that the hot-spots of jihad from western China to eastern Europe follow this route. Trade has been a part of Georgia not for centuries, but easily a millennia or three. A lot of oil and natural gas flow through Georgia, including a good bit of Russian -- and Georgia hasn't been as easy to blackmail as Europe in this regard. Energy, minerals, food, trade -- Russia really, really wants control again.

Third, Georgia has not just turned away from Moscow, it has openly embraced the West and minor things like free-market capitalism, which is opening doors even wider for concepts of individual liberty, freedom, etc. This is an anathema on its own, but the thought of having that message seen by the restive provinces nearby is enough to give any of the powers/power factions in Moscow absolute conniptions.

Fourth, that embracing of the West has meant an embracing of Western (primarily American) military thought and equipment. It has meant an effort to join NATO, that Putin expended considerable effort and resources to defeat. Even without being able to join, Georgia has continued to work to integrate its forces into being able to work with NATO troops and equipment (meaning U. S. forces) and has, I believe, openly indicated its willingness to work on future systems and development -- including missile defense.

Fifth, despite its efforts to upgrade and improve its forces, the fact that Georgia has been unable to deal with the Pankisi Gorge is more than a major irritant to Moscow. The Gorge is haven to groups that have dealt Russia multiple defeats and bloody noses in Chechnya and has resisted Russian, Georgian, and purportedly other efforts to deal with it. The additional problem, in Moscow's eyes, is that Georgia is reaching a point where it might could deal with it -- which means it also could deal with Russia on an equal or even superior footing militarily and diplomatically. Russia wants very much to deal decisively with the Gorge, but having anyone else do it is extremely problematic. The current situation works for them, in that it gives them leverage on the Georgian government and, if they do move in, a claim on Georgian territory. Georgia knows this very well, which is why they have never given permission for Russia to move in and deal with it. Break the Georgian military, break the problem..

Sixth, this is also a semi-indirect attack against the United States and its alliances. Note multiple statements from Medvedev and Lavrov aimed at those who have trained/armed/encouraged Georgia. Not only is it in part a preemptive move against future missile-defense are related activities, it is a direct move against current missile defense via the Czech Republic and other eastern European countries. Russia has already stated that it would view any such as an act of aggression and that a military response was likely. Part of what is being done now is to show the Czech's and others that being an ally doesn't mean the U.S. really will defend you. If we don't back our ally against a direct military attack here, the lesson is clearly made that the U.S. will not do anything about an attack on their territory. It could also be the start of an effort to make the case that attacking our missile defense in another country is not really an attack on us, but a justifiable action (in the eyes of the U.N., certain so-called international courts, and in particular the European Union courts and ministries). Yet, if we do aid our ally, particularly if we do so strongly, it raises the spectre of a direct conflict between the U.S. and Russia, not to mention jeopardizing any number of ongoing efforts. It even raises the possibility (and I have little doubt that this point is already being raised by Moscow) of Russia reducing or even cutting off gas and oil to Europe for any number of excuses. The EU member states would, I fear, not even hesitate before throwing Georgia -- and even the US -- to the bear, as it were.

Seventh, I think Russia is very well aware that this would also have a strong negative effect on the War on Terror. Destabilizing Georgia will create the potential for a strong and even prolonged pulse of people and supplies along the "Jihad Road" headed both East and West. That this would also tend to cause destabilization in western China as well as in the Balkans works well for Russia. It allows them to regain or seize control of sections of the Balkans, and block moves by the U.S. and parts of Europe to bring order and nurture some emerging democracies. It also causes problems for current ally and long-term rival China. Russia has never mistaken short-term advantage via working with China for anything other than what it is, and if they can weaken or hurt China even as they use China against the U.S., all the better. Final thought, if you break up the alliances, much of what we have done and are working on will fail. It is not inconceivable that Russia may also be looking long term at even further expansion.

Also, if you think that the timing of this such that all major world leaders are in China for the Olympics is a coincidence, then I have some land I would like to sell you. I would very much love to know what is being openly and quietly said in Beijing right now, as I am just about willing to bet cash money that the Chinese are backing the Russian play. China has its own reasons to want this, including Taiwan. Fail to back an ally, bad enough. Cut and run, and the world-wide results would be catastrophic.

Those of us who used to monitor the Soviet Union have seen some of this coming for a while. The open events, such as the murder of Anna Politkovskaya was a clear indication that the Soviet-era methods were back in play, while the nasty and showy murder of Alexander Litvinenko made points lost on no one paying attention. These are two of the best known events, but many more have died, disappeared, etc. over the last few years who were even a minor threat to Putin and those working with him. They are willing and able to play for keeps, and I think they will be more than willing to escalate things in Georgia to levels we have not seen in several decades.

LW
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2008, 09:17:35 AM »
And WW4 is off and running. Now lets see if they can or will stop the snowball from running down hill. I for one am backing the Georgians. Although I don't agree with their stance on Ossetia. If the people of that region voted (and they did) for independence from Georgia then let them go be a part of Russia. Not much in that spot as it is.

Funny how the Russians are saying the U.S. is arming the Georgians. All I see is Russian designed equipment. Maybe the missiles they are shooting down Migs with are American?

On a slightly related question.

How come the Soviets couldn't find and exploit all of this oil that now funds Putin's desires for Empire?

Regolith

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2008, 09:44:53 AM »
And WW4 is off and running. Now lets see if they can or will stop the snowball from running down hill. I for one am backing the Georgians. Although I don't agree with their stance on Ossetia. If the people of that region voted (and they did) for independence from Georgia then let them go be a part of Russia. Not much in that spot as it is.

Funny how the Russians are saying the U.S. is arming the Georgians. All I see is Russian designed equipment. Maybe the missiles they are shooting down Migs with are American?

On a slightly related question.

How come the Soviets couldn't find and exploit all of this oil that now funds Putin's desires for Empire?

WW4?  Did I miss WW3 or something?  Could have sworn there were only two...
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2008, 09:49:33 AM »
The cold war is considered WW3 by more than a few.

De Selby

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2008, 11:04:37 AM »
Or like the Austrian Corporal attacking the Czechs on behalf of the Sudetenland.

Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.

Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.


Sorry, but forcing a state that has fought to be independent to join your country is not "westernizing" or "democratizing." 

There doesn't seem to be any dispute that the South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia, and that they willingly cooperate with Russia.  Georgia attacked South Ossetia. 

That looks more to me like Georgia trying to "flex its muscles and show those rebels whose boss" than anything else.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

agricola

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2008, 11:15:07 AM »
I suppose this all depends on what happens next.  If Russian forces stay in South Ossetia and there isnt the ethnic cleansing that occured during the first war, this will probably be alright.  If they take over Georgia as a whole, it wont.
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lupinus

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2008, 12:34:07 PM »
Or like the Austrian Corporal attacking the Czechs on behalf of the Sudetenland.

Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.

Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.


Sorry, but forcing a state that has fought to be independent to join your country is not "westernizing" or "democratizing." 

There doesn't seem to be any dispute that the South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia, and that they willingly cooperate with Russia.  Georgia attacked South Ossetia. 

That looks more to me like Georgia trying to "flex its muscles and show those rebels whose boss" than anything else.
So SS.

If after enough Mexican nationals cross the boarder into say, oh, California and hold a vote they want to be part of Mexico the US should in no way shape or form block that?  Up to an including force?
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

De Selby

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2008, 01:13:20 PM »

So SS.

If after enough Mexican nationals cross the boarder into say, oh, California and hold a vote they want to be part of Mexico the US should in no way shape or form block that?  Up to an including force?

Uh, you do realize that this is what the Georgians did to South Ossetia right? The Ossetians are a different ethnic group from the Georgians, and that's why they've been fighting....Georgia. 

We're not dealing with immigrants here-we're dealing with the natives who don't want to be part of Georgia, and apparently do not mind being part of Russia (there's already a big group of them in Russia in their own state of North Ossetia.)

So what's the comparison you're drawing, exactly?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2008, 01:14:47 PM »
I suppose this all depends on what happens next.  If Russian forces stay in South Ossetia and there isnt the ethnic cleansing that occured during the first war, this will probably be alright.  If they take over Georgia as a whole, it wont.

Agreed-this could turn very ugly. 

Of course it would be a breathtaking exercise in hypocrisy for Russia to fight this war under the banner of stopping Georgia from forcibly subduing South Ossetia....but then to invade and conquer Georgia. 

Does unbelievable hypocrisy bar this kind of action in Russia, though? Not so sure about that...
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2008, 04:23:51 PM »
Interesting recent article on S Oss & the soth of the former USSR:
http://www.slate.com/id/2191588/entry/2191589/
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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Hawkmoon

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2008, 07:46:50 PM »
Russia has been occupying the breakaway region, and had the "peacekeepers" there to establish a claim on the territory. Many of the citizens there have Russian citizenship, so that Russia can claim the right to enter and use force to "protect" their citizens. It is much like the "possession is nine tenths of the law" proverb concerning disputed property.

The Russians encourage the local separatists to attack the Georgian defense forces, then when the Georgian national troops respond, Russia calls it a provocation justifying the invasion. It is a sham to cover a planned takeover of territory belonging to Georgia, and conversion of that territory to Russian Control. If the UN and NATO allow this to happen, you will see the same thing repeated in other areas where the locals don't want to be governed by their national government. The locals don't want to be governed by Russia either, but they will use Russia for a while to obtain their independence from federal control, then they will revolt against Russia at a later time.

The locals that are loyal to Russia are evacuating the area, so that most of the deaths will be among those that support the Georgian Federal government. The Russians will claim that the damages done to the towns and villages was caused by the Georgian troops, even though most of the power in the region is in the hands of the Russian military. Will David (Georgia) be able to slay Goliath (Russia) with a slingshot?

If and when the Russians withdraw, Georgia will be looking at a region that has had its economy destroyed, and massive costs to rebuild. Russia will not provide any of the costs to rebuild. If Russia defeats Georgia, then Russia will rebuild the region and force all of the Georgian citizens out of the area, repopulating it with only Russian people from the nearby areas, and the Russian citizens that occupied the area in order to justify the attack in the first place.

This is a well planned and carefully orchestrated attempt to takeover a part of a neighboring country, not unlike Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait. The question is will the UN, NATO and the US have the courage to take military action to kick Russia out of the region as Hussein was after his invasion? Russia is betting that they will not, because of the size, military power, and economic clout that Russia has.

Very good analysis. Russia, of course, is incredibly hypocritical in this, because Russia has zero tolerance for the separatists in their own territory who want to shake off the Russian yoke, but Russia is happy to foment discord in Georgia. And Russia is well aware that the U.S. and NATO are already stretched too thin in Iraq and Afghanistan, so that even if we felt an inclination to join in the fun -- we ain't got nothin' available to play with.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2008, 07:56:02 PM »
Or like the Austrian Corporal attacking the Czechs on behalf of the Sudetenland.

Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.

Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.


Sorry, but forcing a state that has fought to be independent to join your country is not "westernizing" or "democratizing." 

There doesn't seem to be any dispute that the South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia, and that they willingly cooperate with Russia.  Georgia attacked South Ossetia. 

That looks more to me like Georgia trying to "flex its muscles and show those rebels whose boss" than anything else.

Ummm ... South Ossetia IS part of Georgia. Georgia is not trying to force South Ossetia to join their country, they are trying to prevent a group of separatists to split it off from Georgia.
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De Selby

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2008, 08:52:49 PM »
Or like the Austrian Corporal attacking the Czechs on behalf of the Sudetenland.

Considering that no Georgian troops have crossed the border into Russia, but that Russian tropps are attacking into Georgia, "Russia has started a war" is accurate.

Russia is flexing its muscles on uppity neighbors trying to Westernize & democratize.


Sorry, but forcing a state that has fought to be independent to join your country is not "westernizing" or "democratizing." 

There doesn't seem to be any dispute that the South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia, and that they willingly cooperate with Russia.  Georgia attacked South Ossetia. 

That looks more to me like Georgia trying to "flex its muscles and show those rebels whose boss" than anything else.

Ummm ... South Ossetia IS part of Georgia. Georgia is not trying to force South Ossetia to join their country, they are trying to prevent a group of separatists to split it off from Georgia.

Yeah, but this claim doesn't hold much water when you ask yourself and answer a simple question:

How did South Ossetia come to be part of Georgia?

Answer: It was taken by force when Georgia became a country for the first time in several centuries very recently.

It's not like this is some ancestral piece of a sovereign state-it was always unruly and never wanted to be part of an independent Georgia, and it ended up so because that's simply where the cards fell at the end of the Soviet Union.

Georgia has no more right to this land than Russia has to claim Georgia as part of Russia.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2008, 08:56:00 PM »

The locals that are loyal to Russia are evacuating the area, so that most of the deaths will be among those that support the Georgian Federal government. The Russians will claim that the damages done to the towns and villages was caused by the Georgian troops, even though most of the power in the region is in the hands of the Russian military. Will David (Georgia) be able to slay Goliath (Russia) with a slingshot?


Okay...if the locals want to be part of Russia, why is it they get no say?

I don't understand this commitment to the Georgian government's right to force people to be under its rule that don't want to be. 

This isn't like David and Goliath-it's more like Jackie Aprile versus Tony Soprano.  One gangster wants another's turf.  I have no sympathy for either...but I do believe in the principle that people ought to have a say in their government, so if anything, the Ossetians should decide what they want and that should be final.

I don't recognize any government's absolute right to bomb huge segments of its territory into submission.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

mfree

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2008, 05:16:19 PM »
Ok; now explain away the attempted bombing of the pipeline, the bombings in Georgian (not Ossetian) cities, and what the warships are about to do when they reach port...

De Selby

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2008, 05:37:24 PM »
Ok; now explain away the attempted bombing of the pipeline, the bombings in Georgian (not Ossetian) cities, and what the warships are about to do when they reach port...

That's an easy one: Russia is now invading and punishing Georgia, probably with an eye on forcing it back under Russian domination.

And the craziest part is that the leader of Georgia gave them the perfect excuse to do what he had to know they were always intent on doing...
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

yesitsloaded

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2008, 05:51:54 PM »
Just like Saddam did right rolleyes SS I appreciate a little diversity here, but you are getting to be a raincloud that descends on threads and spreads gloom and boredom.
I can haz nukular banstiks ? Say no to furries, yes to people.

De Selby

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Re: While the world was watching the Olympics, Russia has started a war.
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2008, 06:11:57 PM »
Just like Saddam did right rolleyes SS I appreciate a little diversity here, but you are getting to be a raincloud that descends on threads and spreads gloom and boredom.

Huh? Uh, excuse me, but where do you find any approval for what is happening in my posts?

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."