Author Topic: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion  (Read 12433 times)

Rudy Kohn

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2008, 10:37:37 AM »
Microbalrog,

I agree with all of your points.  =)
I just think that an urban nuke detonation is a greater threat (based on probability, likely death toll, long-term damage, etc.) than a low-orbit one.  Therefore, given limited resources for nuke defense, I think the majority of them should be spent trying to prevent terrorists with a nuke from driving it into NYC (for instance) and detonating it.

Boomhauer

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2008, 10:48:16 AM »
I stayed up quite a few late nights, I read it twice almost.
I don't remember dogs, but heck, I don't remember Karate mans name ( Mark ) his kids name or his wifes name.
great story though.
It would be interesting if this scenario played out.




The dogs came in towards the latter third of the story...

In the book, they used eight nukes total. I don't know how many they airbursted over the US, but the story mentions Europe getting hit later, too...

I think Lights Out is a pretty good read...

I hope to God this scenario doesn't happen in the US...we would be so screwed...


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RevDisk

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2008, 12:22:44 PM »
Actually, Rudy, a single 20-megaton nuke in low orbit, would mess up most of the consumer electronics in the US.

Not really.

A Calculation Model for High Altitude EMP

Double digit megaton warheads are not efficient at all.  Clusters of smaller nukes are the better method.  And you'd need a lot of them to blanket the US with sufficient EMP to mess up the bulk of the consumer electronics across the entire US. 
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Gowen

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2008, 12:31:41 PM »
Now the $64 question is...  Will "the one" respond with nukes if we are attacked first?
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Manedwolf

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2008, 12:35:47 PM »
Now the $64 question is...  Will "the one" respond with nukes if we are attacked first?

No.

It will be a tragedy and we'll have to understand their needs better, what drove them to do such an act.

AJ Dual

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2008, 01:01:43 PM »
Not really.

A Calculation Model for High Altitude EMP

Double digit megaton warheads are not efficient at all.  Clusters of smaller nukes are the better method.  And you'd need a lot of them to blanket the US with sufficient EMP to mess up the bulk of the consumer electronics across the entire US. 

That's very true. There's a reverse curve in Megatonnage to EMP and direct thermal/blast effects. A 100Mt bomb is not 200% more destructive than a 50Mt device.

Larger weapons are also exponentially more expensive to produce, and there's increased maintenance and a shelf-life on some of the isotopes and "special herbs and spices" the larger devices need (especially if you're trying to make it compact as possible). And designing them to optimize EMP effects vs. blast/thermal output adds a whole other layer of complexity. Despite the fact that we made the first fission bombs in 1945, North Korea's recent underground sub-kiloton "fizzle" proves that even the most basic  gun-barrel or sub-critical Uranium devices still aren't "easy", even for an entire nation-state, one presumably with access to "axis of evil", Bill Clinton, and other assistance.

And it's true there are capacitor/coil/conventional explosive EMP devices, but they're not "easy" either. There's a reason the U.S. and other top-tier militaries are the one's experimenting with them, and only within the past decade or so. Like the nukes, the basic theory is out there for anyone willing to read PopSci, but like any complex undertaking, "the devil is in the details", and that's the stuff that's kept truly under wraps by the first nuclear powers.

Then, even if you have achieved a multi-megaton capability, there's the size/weight issue to contend with, what that does to the range or capabilities of your missile, or if a whole new multi-year program is needed to develop a new launcher.

It's not as simple as assuming that the U.S. and USSR were "doing this" in the 1950's/60's, so 2000's era rouge states can do it now. These are exponentially expanding technical challenges, it's not a linear progression. (And Russia had lots of help in the 50's and 60's due to espionage in America to get their program jump-started...)  And the things you expect to help, like cheap pervasive and powerful computing do help, but not to the degree people would automatically assume. There's whole entire industries that need to be leveraged, materials science, ultra-precision machining, metallurgy, electronics, chemistry etc. You have to be the best and have the best in all of them, or it's going to slow your program down. There's still a lot of hard-won technical knowledge and methods we've had since the 40's that are still not public domain.

For the next decade or two at least, an EMP attack is only a threat from Russia and China. Container ship or van-delivered ground-bursts are probably a threat now.

The Iranian scenario as posited in the WSJ article is troubling and has some true potential for direct attack, but even if they had the EMP capability to blanket the entire U.S., my gut tells me they'd prefer a direct strike. It seems to me that the Islamists prefer fire, body count, and destruction. 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 01:14:56 PM by AJ Dual »
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Manedwolf

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2008, 01:23:11 PM »
Then, even if you have achieved a multi-megaton capability, there's the size/weight issue to contend with, what that does to the range or capabilities of your missile, or if a whole new multi-year program is needed to develop a new launcher.

Are...you forgetting that these people are suicidal? Launcher? Why?

They'd put it in an old cargo-dog 727 flying up from South America, and detonate it in the air over a city.

AJ Dual

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2008, 01:26:40 PM »
Are...you forgetting that these people are suicidal? Launcher? Why?

They'd put it in an old cargo-dog 727 flying up from South America, and detonate it in the air over a city.

No, not at all. But the main thrust of the discussion was a low-orbit EMP strike, not a ground or airburst strike against a city. Which I too find much more likely.

A human pyramid of jihadi's stacked 200 miles high would be kind of obvious, even if somewhere in the middle of Kansas or Nebraska to get the geographic center and cover all of CONUS with an EMP strike.   =D

Launcher technology, and the exponentially difficult science of multi-megaton devices comes into play. (as compared to a "dumb" kiloton-range Uranium sub-critical device, which even NK couldn't pull off.)
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Manedwolf

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2008, 01:30:33 PM »
No, not at all. But the main thrust of the discussion was a low-orbit EMP strike, not a ground or airburst strike against a city. Which I too find much more likely.

A human pyramid of jihadi's stacked 200 miles high would be kind of obvious, even if somewhere in the middle of Kansas or Nebraska to get the geographic center and cover all of CONUS with an EMP strike.   =D

Launcher technology, and the exponentially difficult science of multi-megaton devices comes into play. (as compared to a "dumb" kiloton-range Uranium sub-critical device, which even NK couldn't pull off.)

They might not be able to get it 200 miles high, but they can certainly explode one aboard a plane at cruising altitude. All it would take is taking over a legitimate cargo flight at its point of origin in some other country or creating a front company for the whole thing, and they'd have a high altitude bomb carrier. Or several at the same time.

Gowen

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2008, 05:34:17 PM »
They might not be able to get it 200 miles high, but they can certainly explode one aboard a plane at cruising altitude. All it would take is taking over a legitimate cargo flight at its point of origin in some other country or creating a front company for the whole thing, and they'd have a high altitude bomb carrier. Or several at the same time.

Why not just take a cargo ship to the gulf of mexico and load one of their el numb-nuts rocket launchers in it and have a go at it.  The rockets can fly 200 miles  high in the sky I am sure and several thousand miles inland.  Heck, they could blame it on cuba.
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RevDisk

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2008, 06:29:58 PM »
Are...you forgetting that these people are suicidal? Launcher? Why?

They'd put it in an old cargo-dog 727 flying up from South America, and detonate it in the air over a city.

25 MT nukes the US produced were 10,670 lb.  Mind you, this was produced by the the most sophisticated industrial nation on the planet.   A less sophisticated version would be much heavier.  Only the B-52 Stratofortress and B-47 Stratojet could carry one.  While 5 tons doesn't sound like much, it is when it's as small as a nuke tends to be.   Very very dense.   So you need special handling kit and something to hold it in place.  Tie downs aren't recommended.   

Gewehr, mind telling us what would happen if a jihadi didn't use proper kit to hold a nuke in place and it started bouncing around in a 727? 


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crawdaddyjim

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2008, 10:05:22 PM »
I was referring to dogs on the good guys side. But yes the son, David was attacked by a feral dog pack. But it would have made more sense to have dogs patrolling the fence line with the sentries. I know I would have started a program such as that from the get go.

As for the capabilities of the bad guys. If we keep telling ourselves that they don't have and can't develop the tech to make it happen then they will just purchase it or the scientists to do it. These guys are highly motivated. And they have Billions of dollars to devote to this kind of project. As they don't spend much on social programs...

They most likely would not try to take out the whole grid at once. They wouldn't have to. Witness the cascade effect of the last power failure. Now if you caused it with a EMP which damaged inductive components (transformers) then you would have lead times just as described in the story. They don't have these things sitting in warehouses waiting on a call.

I agree it is a long shot. But then again who would have thought they could coordinate and execute simultaneous hijackings.

Jim

Manedwolf

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2008, 11:28:00 PM »
25 MT nukes the US produced were 10,670 lb.  Mind you, this was produced by the the most sophisticated industrial nation on the planet.   A less sophisticated version would be much heavier.  Only the B-52 Stratofortress and B-47 Stratojet could carry one.  While 5 tons doesn't sound like much, it is when it's as small as a nuke tends to be.   Very very dense.   So you need special handling kit and something to hold it in place.  Tie downs aren't recommended.   

Gewehr, mind telling us what would happen if a jihadi didn't use proper kit to hold a nuke in place and it started bouncing around in a 727? 

So they use tiedowns. There's nothing in the plane but the nuke, locked down every possible way, and possibly some ballast to keep the plane balanced. They do not need a 25kt. It doesn't matter what the yield is. It could be the kind that would fit in a truck! There's no altitude sensors, no fuze, just a gun device with a cup of U-235 at one end and a cone backed by charges at the other.

And, 737, even. There's a LOT of these in the world, back to early models, still flying. Planes in questionable flying condition came into Miami from South America all the time.

If they blew it over a city, it would still ruin everyone's day below.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 11:31:12 PM by Manedwolf »

ArfinGreebly

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Re: The WSJ has joined the Frugal Squirrel legion
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2008, 02:40:07 AM »
Quote
It will be a tragedy and we'll have to understand their needs better, what drove them to do such an act.

Evidently, they would "need" bombing.

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