Author Topic: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.  (Read 12469 times)

Brad Johnson

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Interviewed today with a National Big Box store. They were falling all over themselves at the interview, saying how much they were impressed with my experience, background, demeanor, etc.. In the end they said I was their best candidate by far.

They began talking about job specifics - How I would be in charge of their largest department, how a significant percentage of the store's annual revenues would be my under my direct responsibility, and how they normally don't offer this department to anyone except someone who's come up within the company. What they were describing was easily a $55-60K salaried position. Maybe more. Needless to say, I was elated. They weren't my first choice as employer but they were nice folks, the gig was challenging, it had decent bennies, and the pay was good. Then they offered the job and that's where it allllllll fell apart.

They wanted me to head a department with more than twenty employees, that generated six million dollars in annual revenue, and where I would assume full accountability in all respects... for $14 an hour.

If the pay had been commensurate with the responsibilities, or the responsibilities commensurate with the pay, I would have jumped at it just to have a freakin job. But I'm not willing to shoulder a multi-million dollar department's accountability and responsibility in return for what the local high school pays it's custodial supervisors. (I know what they pay because they're hiring. The supes also get regular workday/week hours, better benefits, and more attractive holiday schedules.) As bad as I need a job, as much as I am willing to sacrifice to have one, this was just too much of a risk.

Other than that today has been just friggin peachy.  =|

Brad
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 08:06:39 PM by Brad Johnson »
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MillCreek

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2015, 08:24:06 PM »
I start a new medical assistant right out of school at $ 15.45/hour.
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zahc

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2015, 08:31:45 PM »
I can relate. My responsibilities are completely out of whack with my compensation. People are confused by my description of work, because I actually like what I do. However, I cannot seem to come to terms with being so underpaid for it. Even when I win victories,  it's hard to not just feel like a sucker.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2015, 10:30:03 PM »
The local Wal-Mart distribution center near me starts material handlers at better than $17.00 an hour.
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Balog

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2015, 02:48:18 AM »
Local garbage truck drivers start at $25/hour.

A McDonalds I used to eat at occasionally on the way to work had a help wanted poster on the drive through window with salaries. Cashier/line employee, $10.95/hr. Manager $11.95/hr. Janitor $12.95/hr.
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Fitz

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2015, 02:53:05 AM »
Frito lay in Dallas has a billboard up

Packing machine operators 20/hr supervisors 25
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230RN

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2015, 09:09:44 AM »
It seems something like that should have had at least a small commission/bonus for sales and sales increases.
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erictank

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2015, 09:18:44 AM »
I start a new medical assistant right out of school at $ 15.45/hour.

I started in Operations at a nuke plant in 1998 for $19.19/hour, as a worker-bee with Navy training.

I started in Ops at a water plant in 2006, following the nuke plant job, same sort of worker-bee position, for about that same amount, $19.something an hour. About a 40% cut from what I'd worked up to at the power plant.

They wanted a supervisor for a multimillion-dollar department for grocery-produce-section-manager pay? Yeah, no.

MechAg94

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2015, 09:27:16 AM »
Just think, you could make 6 figures with all the overtime they would require.   =D

Yeah, that pay is an insult.  That means that most all your employees are minimum wage or little better (I hope). 
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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2015, 09:37:20 AM »
When I started looking to go back to work, I checked with the Bass Pro shops by the house.  Thought selling boats might be fun.  No commission.  Because I know my way around a boat, they were prepared to offer me $10 an hour!   :facepalm:
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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2015, 09:38:55 AM »
I just applied for a environment scientist job that starts at $25.75/hr (current top end is $37.75) for a waste water treatment plant. Basically the job is outreach to work with commercial and industrial entities on pretreatment of effluents.

All they want is a BS in some sort of biological science and 6 months experience. Positions has already closed, so no can snipe it. :)
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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2015, 10:59:26 AM »

Had a local accounting firm offer me a senior infrastructure management gig. Servers, network, storage, supporting 9 sites, backups, DR, whole thing. Sounded like normal IT grind, with plenty of long hours and nights/weekends. Plus act as 3rd level support. $30 ish K on salary. Let's say it was $30k even, and you only worked 2080 hours per year (51 weeks x 5 days x 8 hr). That's $14.42 per hour. At a more realistic 2550 hours, that's $11.76 per hour as you're salary. More you work, less you earn. Which sounds exactly like what Brad was offered.

First time in my life I did the "Thanks for applying, we'll be in touch" to someone offering me a job. I did ask them to repeat the number just be to sure. No one remotely qualified would take that job for that price. If someone did, it would only be to stay long enough to find a real job. Honestly, anyone accepting that salary should automatically disqualify them for the position.  That's good but not stellar entry level help desk pay.

I never quite understood employers that wanted stellar employees for average wages. I'm quite mystified by wanting stellar or even ok employees for below market wages. I've only seen a handful of places that understood the concept of "If you want great people, you need to pay above market wages and not piss them off." Tended to be financial places, oddly enough.
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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2015, 11:24:44 AM »
I think that some of the driving factors behind these low wages are the corporate emphasis to cut costs and that in some areas for some jobs, the number of applicants exceeds the number of jobs.  If you are in an area of high unemployment and you can get someone acceptable for the position for a relative pittance, well that goes right to the corporate bottom line and your fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value.  As the economy continues to improve and people have more choices for employment, companies will have to improve their compensation packages to compete.
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HankB

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2015, 11:30:45 AM »
I think that some of the driving factors behind these low wages are the corporate emphasis to cut costs . . .
. . . in order to free up more cash for executive compensation.

Seriously, these folks have a very warped idea of the worth of skilled, competent labor. They lament the dearth of highly qualified job candidates, while at the same time they're ignorant of the old saying that if you're only willing to pay peanuts, all you'll be able to hire are monkeys.
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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2015, 11:43:47 AM »
h1b scam
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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2015, 12:00:50 PM »
h1b scam

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RevDisk

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2015, 12:22:07 PM »
I think that some of the driving factors behind these low wages are the corporate emphasis to cut costs and that in some areas for some jobs, the number of applicants exceeds the number of jobs.  If you are in an area of high unemployment and you can get someone acceptable for the position for a relative pittance, well that goes right to the corporate bottom line and your fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value.  As the economy continues to improve and people have more choices for employment, companies will have to improve their compensation packages to compete.

In some areas, that's a good business strategy. If the employees are easily replaceable and there's no real high penalty for having potentially bad employees in that slot. Management should always include in the calculations not only how much cash the slot will eat up, but how much cash can it cost if it's done badly. Kinda like being a counter monkey at a pharmacy. It's barely above minimum wage to read a name on a bag, hand the bag to the person and ring them up. Less complex than 7-11, in some/many cases. The potential negative cost is why your pharmacy clerks make a heck of a lot more than a 7-11 gig.


Fitz is correct that larger companies pull that directly as H1B fraud. Normally less so for smaller companies, unless they're Indian companies. Tata pulls H1B fraud for even low level positions, to bring family and friends over to the US.
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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2015, 07:06:03 PM »
I like what my friend said today: "If you're going to pay peanuts, all you're going to get is monkeys."
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Cliffh

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2015, 12:20:18 AM »
Just think, you could make 6 figures with all the overtime they would require.   =D

Yeah, that pay is an insult.  That means that most all your employees are minimum wage or little better (I hope). 

Not necessarily.  One big box store's policy is that if you work over your scheduled shift, you make up the difference before the end of the pay period.  Say you're scheduled for an 8 hour shift but end up working 9 to finish your assigned tasks, you have to take a long lunch (or, if mgt is in a good mood, go home early) before the end of that pay period.  Gets sort of sticky on the last day of the pay period when one's already over on hours and has 10 1/2 hours of work assigned.

Of course that's only for the wage-slaves.  Salaried persons are screwed.

just Warren

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2015, 01:15:23 AM »
In some areas, that's a good business strategy. If the employees are easily replaceable and there's no real high penalty for having potentially bad employees in that slot. Management should always include in the calculations not only how much cash the slot will eat up, but how much cash can it cost if it's done badly. Kinda like being a counter monkey at a pharmacy. It's barely above minimum wage to read a name on a bag, hand the bag to the person and ring them up. Less complex than 7-11, in some/many cases. The potential negative cost is why your pharmacy clerks make a heck of a lot more than a 7-11 gig.


There's a huge downside for having incompetent supervisors. One lost lawsuit for hostile workplace, or wrongful dismissal, or discrimination etc. can cost the company far more than they'll ever save in labor costs for that job slot over the whole company.

Not to mention all the day-to-day stuff that will not get done or get screwed up because the company decided that that was the place to save money.

It's crazy that supposedly professionally run companies cannot think more than one level down when it comes to costs and staffing.
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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2015, 06:26:41 AM »
I still can't get over the fact that most companies never really think about their employees being their biggest asset or liability and not taking care of them.
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Re:
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2015, 08:25:05 AM »
Because most big business consider them an expense, rather that an asset. Which goes hand in hand with the mentality of hiring folks off the street with a piece of paper and no experience in the industry, rather than moving good people up the ladder as they're recognized, IMO.
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erictank

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2015, 09:02:57 AM »
Had a local accounting firm offer me a senior infrastructure management gig. Servers, network, storage, supporting 9 sites, backups, DR, whole thing. Sounded like normal IT grind, with plenty of long hours and nights/weekends. Plus act as 3rd level support. $30 ish K on salary. Let's say it was $30k even, and you only worked 2080 hours per year (51 weeks x 5 days x 8 hr). That's $14.42 per hour. At a more realistic 2550 hours, that's $11.76 per hour as you're salary. More you work, less you earn. Which sounds exactly like what Brad was offered.

First time in my life I did the "Thanks for applying, we'll be in touch" to someone offering me a job. I did ask them to repeat the number just be to sure. No one remotely qualified would take that job for that price. If someone did, it would only be to stay long enough to find a real job. Honestly, anyone accepting that salary should automatically disqualify them for the position.  That's good but not stellar entry level help desk pay.

I never quite understood employers that wanted stellar employees for average wages. I'm quite mystified by wanting stellar or even ok employees for below market wages. I've only seen a handful of places that understood the concept of "If you want great people, you need to pay above market wages and not piss them off." Tended to be financial places, oddly enough.

Hell, the hours I worked at both the power plant and the water plant (as a skilled operator both places - so skilled-trade blue-collar stuff) ran 2500+ hours a year, at least, all of it rotating-12-hour-shiftwork.  More, over the full course of each job. We were perpetually undermanned, though that was worse at the 3-people-per-shift water plant than at the 12+-people-per-shift power plant - even considering it was a dual unit plant, that's double the manning per shift, and someone could call in sick or take vacation on fairly short notice without it being a major issue. Still down 1-2 people most of the 8 years I was there.  Water plant? We were down 1+ person in the 12-man Ops department for better than 5 years out of the 7 I was there; for more than 2 of those years, we were down THREE people (or an entire SHIFT) that had to be covered by people on their scheduled-off time.  I figured it out shortly before I got my current job - by the time I hit my 7-year point, I'd gotten well over NINE years' working time on shift there.

And for that, the company practically CROWED about having brought us up to "industry-average" wages by the time I'd been there a year or two. While expecting industry-leading performance - and great morale, to boot! :facepalm:  They played games on the overtime-pay rules, as well, during the really bad snowstorm in... 2010?  After the storm (which forced 2 Ops shifts (designated as "essential personnel" - we were required to come in regardless of what conditions might be like) to stay on site for THREE DAYS to keep the plant running without a glitch for the community, while the managers were snug at home the whole time), but before the paychecks were issued, they changed the rules so that we got paid a little over half of what the rules had stated at the time of the storm.  Immediately after that pay period, they changed the rules back, as it affected their own pay if left in place. Strangely enough, Ops morale took a hit right around that time that it never really recovered from... It was like management just didn't give a damn about us, the department most directly responsible for the company having product to sell and make money off of.

There were people I worked with at both places who loved that crap, who soaked up all the overtime they could for as long as I knew them. One of the lead operators at the water plant practically was selfish about taking as much overtime as he could, though I have no idea how many hours that worked out to; he also took a ton of vacation. At the power plant, the overtime-hours leader was always John, one of the NRC-licensed operators. Overtime was apportioned by rotation (it was a union plant), but he NEVER turned it down, I think. I know that about two years before I left there, his overtime hour count for that year was 1100 hours. On top of 2200+ scheduled hours, and he saved an awful lot of vacation

MechAg94

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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2015, 10:42:28 AM »
Changing the OT rules ought to open them up to some liability.  Not sure what retaliation would be if that were acted on.

I think a lot of companies view hourly employees as replaceable.  In many cases, they are.  However, it costs money to replace people and many managers highly underestimate the value of the better, experienced, and knowledgable guys.  I am on call part of the month as production engineer.  I know that if certain operators are on shift, I am not likely to get bothered unless something serious happens.  Not always the case with others.  We only have 1 operation per shift and it is part personality and part experience.
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Re: And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2015, 11:31:05 AM »
I still can't get over the fact that most companies never really think about their employees being their biggest asset or liability and not taking care of them.

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