And they wonder why they cannot get, or keep, good employees.

[bedlamite]

I've said it more than one, our greatest enemy isn't outside our borders.

[charby]

^^^The free markets in action.

Free markets would also mean poaching the best talent and wages would go up.

[MillCreek]

The interesting thing in this thread is that many of the issues complained of are the same issues addressed by unions, and yet the average APS member finds unions to be anathema.

[lupinus]

The problem with unions is often that they don't stick to reasonable things. Politics, thuggary, etc etc. There's some that do good and some that don't. But pretty much all of them cross lines

[RoadKingLarry]

The problem with unions is often that they don't stick to reasonable things. Politics, thuggary, etc etc. There's some that do good and some that don't. But pretty much all of them cross lines

Yup. CWA is pretty innocuous as unions go but in the end they suck liberal/socialist butt too.
On the other hand I'll take my union wages and ride my hypocrisy all the way to the bank. And, I pay out more a year to "conservative" causes than my union dues add up to.

[Scout26]

My experience with unions is that they spent 90% of their tme trying to save/defend the bottom 10% of employees.

Where if they would have let us jettison those bad apples, morale, productivity, and wages would have gone up.

Because everyone gets the same pay, the good employees, after a whle, see that the slugs are making the same,  and start to "Go Galt".  

I always get a chuckle from the "Rah, Rah, UNION!!!!" members of the "Former employees of Airborne Express" FB page, whinging about the crappy, low paying jobs they now have vs. the high-paying easy jobs the had with ABX.

[MechAg94]

The interesting thing in this thread is that many of the issues complained of are the same issues addressed by unions, and yet the average APS member finds unions to be anathema.

As scout and others said, the unions don't really want a free market.  They might use that as a the carrot, but that isn't where they want to lead you.

[MechAg94]

My experience with unions is that they spent 90% of their tme trying to save/defend the bottom 10% of employees.

Where if they would have let us jettison those bad apples, morale, productivity, and wages would have gone up.

Because everyone gets the same pay, the good employees, after a whle, see that the slugs are making the same,  and start to "Go Galt".  

I always get a chuckle from the "Rah, Rah, UNION!!!!" members of the "Former employees of Airborne Express" FB page, whinging about the crappy, low paying jobs they now have vs. the high-paying easy jobs the had with ABX.

A lot of people would have a LOT more respect for union workers if they did exactly that. 

My Dad worked ina journeyman union for his career.  He thought the biggest issue is many of the guys thought they worked for the union.  Didn't thnk or care about the company who needs a job done in a timely and thrifty way. 

[charby]

The problem with unions is often that they don't stick to reasonable things. Politics, thuggary, etc etc. There's some that do good and some that don't. But pretty much all of them cross lines

What you said. If they would stick with training, accreditation of said training and fight for good wages and benefits; I think you see a lot more unionized employees.

[makattak]

People are worried about hajis or Climate Change or zombies or whatever. I'm mostly worried about economics. Government spending is drastically increasing, overwhelming financed through debt. We'd need to double tax revenue just to break even. Government answer is inflation, as always. It's going to be increasingly nasty as purchasing power drops, wages continue to stagnate, taxes stay the same or increase and the private sector job growth lags the way it has been.

Hell, inflation and wage stagnation alone is a nasty combo in the long run. At the risk of sounding too OWS, I expect it to be more than one but less than four decades before we have an economic revolt of some variety.

Keep in mind that financial chaos can be a driver of war... This isn't an "either/or" issue.

[roo_ster]

What you said. If they would stick with training, accreditation of said training and fight for good wages and benefits; I think you see a lot more unionized employees.

This.

[lupinus]

What you said. If they would stick with training, accreditation of said training and fight for good wages and benefits; I think you see a lot more unionized employees.

Yep. I'll even throw in safety/following  safety regulations.

The unions that manage to stick with that formula are generally quiet and aren't the example people want no part of.

[MillCreek]

I personally have never been a union member.  But I have second-hand experience, via relatives, with the Boeing engineering union (father and sister)  and the local teachers union (wife), and I have professional experience working with nurses unions at the hospitals.  Perhaps it is a function of those unions representing professionals, but i would have to say that those unions did not emphasize keeping the crappy employees; more often then not, they were onboard with management recommendations.

[RevDisk]

I personally have never been a union member.  But I have second-hand experience, via relatives, with the Boeing engineering union (father and sister)  and the local teachers union (wife), and I have professional experience working with nurses unions at the hospitals.  Perhaps it is a function of those unions representing professionals, but i would have to say that those unions did not emphasize keeping the crappy employees; more often then not, they were onboard with management recommendations.

I've heard good things about some HVAC union too. All union officials are not wearing 1930's banker outfits, lighting cigars with $100 bills while doing coke off a hooker's fourth point of contact. Usually.

http://nypost.com/2010/06/17/union-boss-hog-in-300k-hooker-scam/

There are good union people and bad union people. But the bad outnumber the good at this moment. Companies used to be very clearly the bad guys. Now they might not be the good guys, but unions are usually worse.

The interesting thing in this thread is that many of the issues complained of are the same issues addressed by unions, and yet the average APS member finds unions to be anathema.

Hell if a union actually addressed them, I'd support them. In ye olde times, company might send thugs to your door step. These days, it's not a daily occurrence, but there's a chance unions might send a leg breaker to your door step or bus in several hundred people to invade your property. If a company did that, I'd make millions, if not tens of millions, off the settlement.

If unions stuck to union related stuff, and promoted education, hard work, apprenticeship, etc, I'd be their biggest cheerleader.

[wmenorr67]

When I was a correctional officer they wanted me to join the union.  I asked what was in it for me?  They couldn't give me an answer.

[Viking]

Keep in mind that financial chaos can be a driver of war... This isn't an "either/or" issue.

I'm more and more leaning towards the "that's part of the long running plan..." camp.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Unions can be as good or as bad as the local leadership they are really a classic example of people get the kind of government they vote for

[Scout26]

 I'm with Charby, Lupinus and RevDisk on this.

If Unions focused on apprenticeship/training, safety, hard work, and providing good benefits/retirements through careful management of unions resources while staying out of politics and thuggery.  I would be all for them.  There, surprisingly, are two here in Chicago that pretty do the above.  Pipefitters (because of all the refineries around here, if union guys make one go Ka-Boom, the rest would go to "Independent Contractors most rickey-tic.)  And the IBEW.  They have a nice training center at 115th and Ridgeland right off of I-294 (I don't know if that's Alsip or Chicago Ridge).  Anyway, they partner with NECA (National Association of Electrical Contractors), and seem to work well together and I think they figured out that "Independent Contractors" could end them.

BOth unions seem to be focused on training.  The Pipefitters have a VIP program that they tout on the the radio, as they are a sponsor of WHite Sox games.  VIP stands for "Veterans in Piping", so they are actively recruiting veterans.  And because there's a shortage, most employers will pay for the JUCO schooling of Pipefitters.  A buddy of mine's niece is currently training/apprenticing to become a pipefitter.  One semester of JUCO classes.  Followed by one semester of paying OJT.   (Pay is pretty good, somewhere between $20-40 an hour.  I disremember exactly how much.)

Much like what Boomhauer is doing.

[lupinus]

FIL is a member of a pipefitters union. Good guy and as far as I can tell the union actually does the good things a union should/could be doing. Only time I've noticied them getting political is when a policritter went on a general anti union bender and hit their name on the dart board or goes attack dog on unions in general. And even then, it wasn't a dirty response (far as I saw). And the quality of work on jobs the state has contracted out to non-union folks, that his union used to get, is night and day. To say he isn't a fan of our current governor is an understatement.

In short, his union seems to operate as a union ought to, and is the type of union I think can be actually beneficial for an industry.

[RocketMan]

Many moons ago when I worked in TV in Portland, OR, I had to belong to the IBEW.  Bunch of damn thugs.
Never again will I belong to a union.  I'd rather be a greeter at Walmart.

[Stand_watie]

Unions can be as good or as bad as the local leadership they are really a classic example of people get the kind of government they vote for

These guys ...  http://www.glassdesigninc.net/... built my furnace. My understanding was they are a mix of union/non union. Regardless, best work crew I've ever seen on a project.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I get the advantages of training and apprenticeship programs, but why do they have to be run by unions?  Couldn't you just have a good training program without all of the union baggage?

[MechAg94]

IMO, you get the slugs inside and outside unions.  If you go cheap, you are not going to get the better labor.  I imagine the best guys either follow better supervisors or better companies with better pay.