Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: roo_ster on January 16, 2009, 12:20:56 PM
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Administrava
I will reveal no great spoilers This also is not an examination of plot & such, but more a treatise on the nature of the series as a whole.
I read all seven of the HP books over Christmas. Up to that point, I had read only reviews and seen a couple of the movies.
Our local Half Price Books had many copies of all seven on hand and for a reasonable price. A new copy of the latest runs $35, a very unreasonable price, IMO. I paid less than $7 on average for each hardbound and only $1 for the first in the series, which was a paperback (my favored form factor).
Introduction
The HP book series is centered around an 11-17YO Harry Potter, who is a wizard, one born with the potential for hermetic magic(1) (female wizards are known as witches). The HP universe is our own, but with the addition of magic, magic creatures, and sub/secret societies that exist in parallel to the non-magical, "muggle" one. By means of various enchantments and the vigorous efforts of the UK Ministry of Magic, the muggle world remains mostly ignorant of the magical reality. All of the HP books take place on the island of Great Britain.
HP begins the first book as an 11YO orphan raised by muggle relatives antagonistic to both him and to the wizarding world in general. He, himself is not aware of the magic world, but is made aware of its existence by an invitation to study at Hogwart's, a 7 year boarding school dedicated to educating young wizards & witches. Hogwarts is also where most of the action in the HP series occurs. Each book covers an academic year at Hogwart's, SEP-JUN.
Evaluation
The HP books are very entertaining, even for adults. The first two or three are your standard "350 pages and out" affairs. Subsequent books ballooned to twice that length. My general observation of young people who read the HP books is that if they like the first one, the length of the subsequent books is no barrier.
Not particularly deep, the HP books do have some recurring themes:
Value of friendship
Loyalty
Courage
Determination
Denigration of inherited money, power, etc.
Rules are made to bent, folded, and mutilated in the pursuit of Really Important Goals
Yes, there is evil in the world
Evil must be fought
Self-defense is a good thing
Intelligence is valuable, but not the only important characteristic of a person
They are not written at the level of J. R. R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings or even C S Lewis's Narnia books. But, they are some of the best children's books written since them that can also be enjoyed by adults. LoTR can be likened to a magnum opus and is a contender for the best book(s) of the 20th century. CS Lewis's books are little jewels of literature to be enjoyed. Again, HP will knock neither from their perch.
They read fairly quickly and are probably written at the 5th-8th grade level. The themes/content gets darker as you plow through them, however, so even if your kiddo can read and understand, the material might be darker than you want them to deal with at younger ages.
I heartily ercommend the HP books for both adults and children. The children ought to be matched to the book with the later books reserved for the older children.
(1) The best way I can describe the "magic rules" in the HP universe. Here is a definition of how I am using it:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/hermetic.html
"...hermetic magic is used to refer to an essentially scientific approach to magic -- which views the world as a collection of impersonal energies which can be harnessed by the use of special knowledge."
I do this to differentiate it from other sorts of magic systems in other fantasy universes and as clarification to those who view the HP books as somehow occult or the like.
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Don't forget some other themes I noticed, and didn't mind seeing:
1. Every one of the wizards, even kids, are entrusted with carrying a lethal weapon. If they pull out their wand and say two words...it will kill the person it's pointed it. Period. Irrecoverably. The good people do not do that, because it's wrong to do so.
2. The wands can also be used for self-defense against sorts who WOULD do that. They can used to disarm, knock down, or otherwise disable an enemy, or cause them great pain. Again, everyone is allowed to carry one.
3. At one point, when a war begins, an ineffectual set of leaders refuses to acknowledge that everyone is responsible for their own self-defense, and refuses to offer anything like suggestions of training in self-defense. Instead, they go for "wand control" (!) coupled with insipid propaganda that "The Ministry will keep you safe from the dark wizards, you have nothing to worry about." This, of course, fails miserably, and the protagonists, who do realize the need for self-defense, are involved in sudden and violent confrontations on a number of occasions where the only ones who could save them are themselves. Those who believe the Ministry will magically (ha ha) protect them tend to be found as bodies reported in the paper.
Not a bad lesson, that.
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Don't forget that one of the first evil things Voldemort does when his people infiltrate the Ministry is ban homeschooling. His object is explicitly to take control of all the wizardly education. For evil. I approve.
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I'll just leave this here. . .
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I'll just leave this here. . .
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You are aware that both are just variants on the Campbellian archetype that's been used since Greek plays and likely well before that, right? :)
A hero of humble origins who must fulfill an epic destiny is one of civilization's oldest literary archetypes, one common to West and East alike, even. It speaks to the vast majority, giving them a dream that "that could happen to them".
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I enjoyed the HP books. I agree they are not to the level of LotR or CoN but they are good solid books for people of any age.
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A hero of humble origins who must fulfill an epic destiny is one of civilization's oldest literary archetypes, one common to West and East alike, even. It speaks to the vast majority, giving them a dream that "that could happen to them".
Oh, you mean like Fraido Baggins, along with help from his friends Gonnoff and Arrogant ? =D
I just couldn't get into the HP books, though the movies are okay. I have read some of Susan Cooper's books though ... =|
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You are aware that both are just variants on the Campbellian archetype that's been used since Greek plays and likely well before that, right? :)
You do realize that's a very antagonistic way of making a comment, designed to make people feel stupid, right?
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You do realize that's a very antagonistic way of making a comment, designed to make people feel stupid, right?
Like decrying people's professional knowledge as geekishness, followed by a :P ...?
;)
And seriously, I'd seen that a lot. "Oh, it's just like Star Wars!"...well, yes. So are ten thousand other tales where the hero starts as a humble farmer, a blacksmith, an apprentice, an indentured servant, a peasant, a beggar, an orphan...and is "found" by a greater force that spirits them away to grand adventure and an epic destiny. It's one of humanity's oldest stories. The fact that two movies used it shouldn't be surprising.
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Don't forget some other themes I noticed, and didn't mind seeing:
1. Every one of the wizards, even kids, are entrusted with carrying a lethal weapon. If they pull out their wand and say two words...it will kill the person it's pointed it. Period. Irrecoverably. The good people do not do that, because it's wrong to do so.
2. The wands can also be used for self-defense against sorts who WOULD do that. They can used to disarm, knock down, or otherwise disable an enemy, or cause them great pain. Again, everyone is allowed to carry one.
3. At one point, when a war begins, an ineffectual set of leaders refuses to acknowledge that everyone is responsible for their own self-defense, and refuses to offer anything like suggestions of training in self-defense. Instead, they go for "wand control" (!) coupled with insipid propaganda that "The Ministry will keep you safe from the dark wizards, you have nothing to worry about." This, of course, fails miserably, and the protagonists, who do realize the need for self-defense, are involved in sudden and violent confrontations on a number of occasions where the only ones who could save them are themselves. Those who believe the Ministry will magically (ha ha) protect them tend to be found as bodies reported in the paper.
Not a bad lesson, that.
Good points, all.
I will also note that the HP universe is a religion-less zone outside of veneration for the antagonist by his lackeys. The HP series is not hostile and still includes the Christian holidays, but it is just not mentioned at all. It si a non-entity.
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the hero starts as a humble farmer, a blacksmith, an apprentice, an indentured servant, a peasant, a beggar, an orphan...and is "found" by a greater force that spirits them away to grand adventure and an epic destiny. It's one of humanity's oldest stories.
Ironically, Manedwolf was just a poor obscure wolf pup when one day he chased a unicorn down a rabbit hole and became a Noble Warrior For Truth (NWFT) in an alternate universe known as the Internet =D
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I remember all the "Rowling's a libertarian!!!!!!one11!!" posts on THR when the wand control book came out.
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I enjoyed all the books and the movies. And, I am an old guy.....chris3
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In terms of weaponry Pokemon is the same way.
Ash Ketchem is a 13-14YO walking around with a a multi-charge taser, a flying flamethrower, a shuriken launcher, a sound-wave emmitter that can knock people unconcious and other things like that that obey his every command and nobody thinks twice about it.
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I will also note that the HP universe is a religion-less zone outside of veneration for the antagonist by his lackeys. The HP series is not hostile and still includes the Christian holidays, but it is just not mentioned at all. It is a non-entity.
There's a guy who appeared on Issues Etc. a couple of times, who argued that JK Rowlings incorporated all sorts of obscure "medieval symbolism" in her books, to make them Christian allegory. I haven't been able to find anything on the net about that, but it sounded interesting.
Wand control:
I haven't read the books, so maybe I have the wrong idea here. But is it all that libertarian to make sure that all of the elite can carry weapons? :|
Like decrying people's professional knowledge as geekishness, followed by a :P ...?
Lord give me strength. I wasn't "decrying" anybody's professional knowledge. The :P denotes light-hearted teasing. Would you seriously think I was trying to insult you if I stuck out my tongue at you, in person? You realize I even called myself a loser, right? :rolleyes:
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Fisty: the bad guys implement wand control. Our plucky heroes oppose it. So yeah, libertarian-ish.
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HP first came out when i was in late middle school. i refused to read them because i though it was just a stupid fad or something. then in high school i finally read the first one and was hooked.
i loved it when the started getting really dark and serious. she didn't keep them light and let the story go along to a more natural plot for the subject matter. its a story of good fighting evil. she allowed for the evil to be truly evil and for good to actually have to fight.
my only issue is that some of the later books got a little ponderous. i often found myself skipping explanations that had been made in earlier books.
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i loved it when the started getting really dark and serious. she didn't keep them light and let the story go along to a more natural plot for the subject matter
Maybe that's why I couldn't get past the first couple chapters of HP ... Hagrid on the flying motorcyle just seemed to goofy to me. I don't really like fantasy set in the modern world anyway, unless it's one of those "door to someplace else" stories. I read one of the "So you want to be a wizard...?" series (set in an alternate and horrifying NYC) and hated it. NYC is horrifying enough just as it is =(
OTOH, really good fantasy humor is great, like Patricia Wrede's "Dealing with Dragons" series. Those are hilarious once you figure out that it's all totally tongue-in-cheek. =D
The last few years I've had a hard time staying at reading anything, but I just started a modern retelling of the Mabinogion.
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The best humorous fantasy I've found is Craig Shaw Gardner's Ebenezum stuff Hilarious.
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Fisty: the bad guys implement wand control. Our plucky heroes oppose it. So yeah, libertarian-ish.
OK, but it's still like saying "All police should be allowed to carry guns," or "All samurai should be allowed to carry swords." You're still only placing power in the hands of an elite group that is trained (by the elite) to use it.
Or is that the ignorance talking? :lol:
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OK, but it's still like saying "All police should be allowed to carry guns," or "All samurai should be allowed to carry swords." You're still only placing power in the hands of an elite group that is trained (by the elite) to use it.
Or is that the ignorance talking? :lol:
Put the wand down, Fistful. You'll poke your eye out with it. :laugh:
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OK, but it's still like saying "All police should be allowed to carry guns," or "All samurai should be allowed to carry swords." You're still only placing power in the hands of an elite group that is trained (by the elite) to use it.
Or is that the ignorance talking? :lol:
Essentially, wizards in HP are not an 'elite' of the human society. The world is so arranged that ordinary humans/muggles do not interact with wizards. They're not a feature of the wizard hierarchy at all, and wizards are prohibited from using their magic in human presence in any way, shape, or form.
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OK, but it's still like saying "All police should be allowed to carry guns," or "All samurai should be allowed to carry swords." You're still only placing power in the hands of an elite group that is trained (by the elite) to use it.
Or is that the ignorance talking? :lol:
You'd have to read the books. ANY wizard, even kids, get a wand. And any wand can kill. There's no elite in that regard. In fact, when they draw and use them defensively, it's usually akin to drawing from a holster, either worn on belt or concealed. They don't wave them like fairies, they point fast and yell something (usually bastardized Latin) that hits the other like a ton of bricks. They're essentially magic-powered projectile weapons when used like that. (Plus they can be a tactical light, too! Lumos!) :lol: The "muggles", the ones who just don't see the parallel existence of the magic sorts, it'd just be a stick to them.
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Essentially, wizards in HP are not an 'elite' of the human society. The world is so arranged that ordinary humans/muggles do not interact with wizards. They're not a feature of the wizard hierarchy at all, and wizards are prohibited from using their magic in human presence in any way, shape, or form.
Agreed. Wizarding society is side by side with the rest of humanity, not on top of it in some hierarchy. There are rich and powerful wizards and drunk bum wizards, just like there are with regular humans. And all kinds carry wands. There is nothing elite about it.
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Thanks for explaining to a poor, benighted muggle. Consider my comments withdrawn. And please don't wand me. :O
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We know you like to wand yourself, so no problem there.
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A hero of humble origins who must fulfill an epic destiny is one of civilization's oldest literary archetypes, one common to West and East alike, even.
Sounds a lot like the plotline of...
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ZARDOZ!!!
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Sounds a lot like the plotline of...
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ZARDOZ!!!
Except Harry Potter doesn't require a toupee.
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Except Harry Potter doesn't require a toupee.
Or nude mud-wrestling.