changing "no firearms" policy

[geronimotwo]

i am a local volunteer fireman. our member handbook is pretty specific about guns.

"Firearms  Firearms are not to be on the premises of the fire department at any time. This policy excludes on duty police officers, but does include weapons in vehicles and on the person."

fortunatly, the members are able to change policies with a majority vote. before i bring this up at a meeting, i would like to have better ammo to make the best argument for getting this policy dropped.

any practical arguments would be appreciated, thanks.

g2

[Jamisjockey]

First and foremost would be if you're in a concealed carry state.  My second issue would be if anyone there hunts.
In creating your argument, mention that firemen are trusted public servants.  If you can't be trusted by your superiors, then why should the public trust you?
In rewording the policy in your proposal, you should mention that weapons be possessed or stored in compliance with all local, state and federal laws. 

[280plus]

I'm pretty sure you aren't supposed to run into an active fire carrying a loaded firearm. You don't want the rounds to start cooking off on you. Chances are, if it's that hot, you're in deep doo doo already and you don't need anything else to go wrong, ESPECIALLY rounds bursting at your waistline.

That said it brings up issues of ok, I can take the gun off before I get suited up but how do I ENSURE it is secure. To me, leaving it in the car is not secure and neither is a locker. I suggest you think hard about how you could overcome this situation in the context of yours and the dept's particular needs and present it as part of your argument.

[Jamisjockey]

Leaving it in a locked car at a firedepartment is secure to me.  No diff than a criminal breaking into my house.

[mfree]

Er, if you're cooking off cartridges in a gun strapped to your waist, you have deeper problems than the cook-off, because that wonderful bacon smell is likely *you*.

[Manedwolf]

I'm sure the LA fire department would have liked to have had guns during the LA riots.

What if you respond to a fire and it turns out to be a meth lab?

[geronimotwo]

First and foremost would be if you're in a concealed carry state.  My second issue would be if anyone there hunts.
In creating your argument, mention that firemen are trusted public servants.  If you can't be trusted by your superiors, then why should the public trust you?
In rewording the policy in your proposal, you should mention that weapons be possessed or stored in compliance with all local, state and federal laws. 

yes, NY is a carry state with a permit (9 month process for me). we are a rural department, so not only is hunting big for locals, but we have many "guest" hunters as well (in fact we always need to perform a search or two for lost hunters every year, another good reason to carry as their are bear and coyote around). there are also two other members who are part of the local pistol club.

I'm pretty sure you aren't supposed to run into an active fire carrying a loaded firearm. You don't want the rounds to start cooking off on you.

most of our calls are not house fires. we have around 150 motor vehicle accidents, as well as over 500 ambulance calls per year. some of these will be for domestic violence.

then there's bingo every week. 60-100 people gathered in a "no weapons zone" where cash is given away.

[Paddy]

I'm sure the LA fire department would have liked to have had guns during the LA riots.

What if you respond to a fire and it turns out to be a meth lab?

Or if space aliens attacked?  Fire personnel won't enter until the premises have been secured by law enforcement.

[Chris]

I'm sure the LA fire department would have liked to have had guns during the LA riots.

What if you respond to a fire and it turns out to be a meth lab?

Well, I am not a firefighter, and don't play one on TV, but if the house fire turns out to be a burning meth lab, and the cooks are fighting from the inside to protect their product, a certain song comes to mind...

"The roof.  The roof.  The roof is on fire.  We don't need no water, let the m----- f----- burn!"

[Scarecrow]

I think keeping a gun in your car is secure enough. some states even say that you can have a gun in your car even without a permit because they consider it an extention of your home, such as Louisiana

[280plus]

some states even say that you can have a gun in your car even without a permit because they consider it an extention of your home, such as Louisiana

Hmph, did not know that... Call me Ishmael or whatever but I've never liked leaving my gun in the car attended. I want it on me or in the safe, nowhere else. So I'm either paranoid or a control freak. 

But geronimo's explanation is reasonable. If he's comfortable with it that's the bottom line.

And firemen have been known to be pulled out of fires a bit scorched but still alive, it happens. Why take the chance of futhering the injuries?

[Perd Hapley]

And firemen have been known to be pulled out of fires a bit scorched but still alive, it happens. Why take the chance of futhering the injuries?

You think mutant ninja zombie bears won't attack you, just because you're fighting a fire?  Moron! 

[geronimotwo]

the biggest problem is the no "weapons in vehicles", as when i carry, and there is a call, it leaves nowhere but home to take the gun to. this causes an unnecessary delay.

[Perd Hapley]

the biggest problem is the no "weapons in vehicles", as when i carry, and there is a call, it leaves nowhere but home to take the gun to. this causes an unnecessary delay.

That could be your biggest selling point, as it is a problem for the fire department and the public, not just for you.  "We're sorry your three children perished in that there fire, Ma'am, but half our force was going home to put their Glocks away. 

[Tuco]

Call me Ishmael or whatever

ISHMAEL!!!

WHATEVER!!!


Nya nya nya na na!

[280plus]

Ok, I forgot about the mutant teenage zombie ninja bears... 

[geronimotwo]

I'm sure the LA fire department would have liked to have had guns during the LA riots.

What if you respond to a fire and it turns out to be a meth lab?

Or if space aliens attacked?  Fire personnel won't enter until the premises have been secured by law enforcement.

fire and ambulance personnel are supposed to wait for police to secure the area. this only works if 911 has been told there is a security issue. if the neighbor who calls in the fire neglects to mention that it's a meth lab......., or there could be a call of someone bleeding outside their home. after arriving on scene, you realize it's because of the angry spouse with a baseball bat is the reason their bleeding. law enforcement has no obligation to be on scene (or at least is not likely to arrive in our town) if their is no reason to believe a threat exists.

Ok, I forgot about the mutant teenage zombie ninja bears... 

i once had a bear pass about twenty feet from my family and me in the wild, and i was VERY relieved that it took no interest in us (even though it gave no sign of having a sansetsukon).

[Firethorn]

fire and ambulance personnel are supposed to wait for police to secure the area. this only works if 911 has been told there is a security issue. if the neighbor who calls in the fire neglects to mention that it's a meth lab......., or there could be a call of someone bleeding outside their home. after arriving on scene, you realize it's because of the angry spouse with a baseball bat is the reason their bleeding. law enforcement has no obligation to be on scene (or at least is not likely to arrive in our town) if their is no reason to believe a threat exists.

How about keeping a shotgun in the rack next to the fire axes?  Heck, keep some 'special' loads and use the excuse it's for quick removal of locks and such if necessary.  That'll transform it from a 'weapon' into a 'tool'.  'Multipurpose explosive charge dispensor'.  Have a box of lockcutter rounds, water disruptor rounds, a pepper ball or three, and a few slugs/buckshot.

For that matter a couple of suited up firefighters with axes should be able to 'handle' an angry spouse with a baseball bat. 

[geronimotwo]

For that matter a couple of suited up firefighters with axes should be able to 'handle' an angry spouse with a baseball bat. 

hey, a set of nomex turnout gear is only around $1, why don't we just add a couple layers of kevlar to make them a little more puncture proof! actually the stuff is really tough, and i would bet a twenty that a .25 wouldn't go through.

[Tallpine]

Just how many trained volunteers are they willing to dismiss ? 


I'm a member of a rural wildland department.  I carry all the time on my land and in the neighborhood, and I'll be danged if I'm going to disarm out in the "wilds" fighting a fire.  Sometimes one or a few of us have to remain overnight on watch in some lonely places.  It's never been a problem so far, and if it becomes a problem then I will just quit.  That way I can stay home and defend my own property.

As far as rounds cooking off, a lot of wildland f/f's carry fusees in their packs for lighting backfires.  Though you're supposed to dispose of those before deploying your fire shelter 

[Jamisjockey]

fire and ambulance personnel are supposed to wait for police to secure the area. this only works if 911 has been told there is a security issue. if the neighbor who calls in the fire neglects to mention that it's a meth lab......., or there could be a call of someone bleeding outside their home. after arriving on scene, you realize it's because of the angry spouse with a baseball bat is the reason their bleeding. law enforcement has no obligation to be on scene (or at least is not likely to arrive in our town) if their is no reason to believe a threat exists.

How about keeping a shotgun in the rack next to the fire axes?  Heck, keep some 'special' loads and use the excuse it's for quick removal of locks and such if necessary.  That'll transform it from a 'weapon' into a 'tool'.  'Multipurpose explosive charge dispensor'.  Have a box of lockcutter rounds, water disruptor rounds, a pepper ball or three, and a few slugs/buckshot.

For that matter a couple of suited up firefighters with axes should be able to 'handle' an angry spouse with a baseball bat. 

They make marine attachments for firing lines and flares, too.

[Firethorn]

They make marine attachments for firing lines and flares, too.

The more uses, the better.  Great idea.   

[secamp32]

There are combo police/fire departments.  The police officers on patrol don turnout gear and fight fires.  The Port Authority of NY/NJ uses emergency services POs as FF.  They call it "Guns and Hoses".  Guns and firefighting is not exclusive.

[Tallpine]

There are combo police/fire departments.

In the county just west of here, there are only two paid peace officers - the sheriff and undersheriff.  They are also the fire chiefs in their respective towns - the only two municipalities in that county.  There is only about 800-900 people in the whole county.

To my knowledge, though - neither of them is also a used car dealer