Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on October 09, 2013, 09:10:45 AM
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http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2021994037_lawschoolsxml.html
The crappy job market for new lawyers has not improved.
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The crappy job market for new lawyers has not improved.
Good. We are eliminating the source of sustenance for the young of the brood. Now we just need to find a means of eliminating the mature parasites.
(Of course, the solution is "tort reform", but that appears to be a banned substance in this country.)
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Let's ignore that the legal field (work to be done) has actually increased beyond the number of lawyers. It's just that the big players now outsource everything possible. India actually outsources the outsourced work right back to the USA; such is the flood of work. The pyramid of legal work has lost its base, forcing the lowest run of lawyers to look up a level, despite it being far more narrow. There are also now 'appearance' companies. Pay them $200 and they will find some desperate lawyer willing to appear for $40. Greed Greed Greed and failure to enforce existing ethical rules; there's too much money to be made so by magic, its 'common practice' without ever being challenged; despite being extreme departures from established ethical confines.
When looking about for legal work I was frankly shocked at the unapologetic greed. Lawyers who bragged about making millions a year would force uncompensated working lunches and round down on hours, with an extremely low base pay. Right now posted work for lawyers gives the same hourly as a BestBuy cashier. And they are finding people to fill those spots! And don't think this is some mere 'paying your dues' experience type of thing. It is exploitation. If it weren't for myself and the half dozen decent folks I know, I'd say they all had it coming... but let's not forget that decent 2% out there. Imagine what the laws and courts would be like if No One was fighting the good fight anymore.
And just cause there is more rant in me... The quality of legal service provided has also plummeted. I'm 3 years in, 106 cases without a loss. I'm not THAT good. Unless the last names match, and not even all the time then, no one seems interested in actually passing along systemic legal instruction. I know a half dozen exceptions, but they were sought out and basically won over. I had a very prestigious internship with very prestigious fellow interns from very prestigious schools. Nothing was expected from them and with one other exception, that is what they provided and that is what they learned. It rankles me to this day.
Academic Creep: More 'free money' (guaranteed unlimited academic gov loans), More NEED for that money and more need to switch the focus from practice prep to academics.
Outsourcing the bottom of the pyramid: Also further chipped by the paralegal and legal assistant. No need for a Jr. Assoc that could get uppity when you can have a permanent low paid employee you have do the same
work. This is a huge factor for the debasement of the profession and offices set a low bar for quality and stay there.
Resume Flooding: This fits with I'd have no problem if they were competent. Same thing with the IT field. Fake it till you make it, so folks put in for jobs they aren't qualified for with full knowledge the employers have no intention of instruction.
There would be more ranting, but I've got to run off for a meeting.
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I agree with Ned's rant. This has been an issue since I graduated and that was almost 10 years ago. My experience with a large firm soured me enough that I will never go back. At this point, I work for myself and while it can be feast or famine, I like it.
Here is Michigan, one of the problems is that there are just too many law schools. We have the largest private law school in the country (Cooley) and they seem to be opening up a new campus every month.
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While I like my job, and also liked being a prosecutor, and have no regrets at the path I chose, I'm not so sure I would do it again if I knew then what I know now...
I'm 18 years into the job, paying off student loans at almost $2,000 a month. They sell you those loans on the premise that you would get out starting at $50K-$75K a year, buy a house, take out a home equity loan, pay off the loans, and take a deduction on the payments.
I started out at $25K, and am now making $75K after 18 years. The house we bought for $120,000 had the value plummet from $190,000 appraisal by the bank to $135,000 when the bubble popped (thankfully before we did the loan).
Too far too many who don't know, or buy the crap the law schools sell, a law degree is a key to open the door to the life of fame and fortune. The reality is that it is an expensive degree that can get you a decent job, making no more than most other college degrees.
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My experience with a large firm soured me enough that I will never go back.
One of the happiest days in my life was when I left the big mega-firm after five years and started doing in-house healthcare work.
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Ahhhh, the market moves it's invisible hand once again.
Too many JD graduates flood the market, wages (price) goes down, while demand is stable, if not falling (I know a few ex-couples that are holding off on divorce proceedings simply because they cannot afford it.)
And yes, because of the glut, there are JD's doing paralegal work simply to have a job.
It breaks my heart. >:D >:D
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^^^ And I don't think it is going to recover any time soon.
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Ahhhh, the market moves it's invisible hand once again.
The invisible hand isn't so harsh. Change in Ethics/Practice which outsourced a 1/3 of jobs, Gov Loan Nonsense, and Nefarious Academic Institution Practices.
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It also just leads to more lawyer looking for new ways to
siphon make money.
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One of the happiest days in my life was when I left the big mega-firm after five years and started doing in-house healthcare work.
At some point, it dawned on me how much revenue I was bringing in versus how much I was actually paid.
I am the only lawyer in a relatively small town. My cases may not be the most exciting, but I am happier now.
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The invisible hand isn't so harsh.
Actually it is.
Changes in ethics/practice which outsource 1/3 jobs.
That would be the market finding lower cost substitutes.
Gov Loan Nonsense
And that would .gov creating an oversupply due to *Free* student loans. Funny how whenever the .gov, especially the Fed.gov, gets involved things go from bad to worse.
Nefarious Academic Institution Practices.
What? Harping their "product" by touting the most successful of their graduates while hiding the "lower performers" in the background (noise)? Are you accusing them of illegal practices or simply amoral advertising/ and grading/graduation policies?
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What? Harping their "product" by touting the most successful of their graduates while hiding the "lower performers" in the background (noise)? Are you accusing them of illegal practices or simply amoral advertising/ and grading/graduation policies?
Well, they ARE run by a bunch of lawyers...
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Actually it is.
That would be the market finding lower cost substitutes.
And that would .gov creating an oversupply due to *Free* student loans. Funny how whenever the .gov, especially the Fed.gov, gets involved things go from bad to worse.
What? Harping their "product" by touting the most successful of their graduates while hiding the "lower performers" in the background (noise)? Are you accusing them of illegal practices or simply amoral advertising/ and grading/graduation policies?
Even tech breakthroughs tend to take a while to phase out the things they replace. The need for legal services has expanded. The 'market' didn't find lower cost substitutes, the market changed by a rules change; to wit the definition of 'in office' or 'in house.' Suddenly they included foreign businesses and then even foreign businesses hiring other businesses. Given how drastic confidentiality rules are, I cannot parse how sending reams of material internationally is kosher. Outsourcing matters that require direct control.
The problem with gov educational loans goes even deeper than over supply as they have actually removed basic consumer protections from loan recipients. And I don't just mean bankruptcy. But that is a whole other topic.
As for the academic institutions themselves; yes, ALL the accusations. Not all schools, but enough to be a valid concern. The thing about having an entire school of lawyers is that the terms of employment often include representation for the school. And Profs don't just do the work themselves, they make students do it as well. Any legal challenge to a law school unleashes a tsunami of legal paperwork of wildly varying quality that even major cities with fully staffed legal teams dread standing against.
So yes... things aren't just bad, they are terrible.
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At some point, it dawned on me how much revenue I was bringing in versus how much I was actually paid.
I am the only lawyer in a relatively small town. My cases may not be the most exciting, but I am happier now.
Remember the old joke "A small town that can't support one lawyer can always support two."
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Being half way through a jury duty stint and having had the dubious pleasure of listening to tile crawlers in full flight I now have even less respect for the species than I did before.
Which is an amazingly hard thing to do as I had absolutely no respect for them to begin with =D =D
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Well, they ARE run by a bunch of lawyers...
Most of the administrators of law school are not lawyers. They have the same background as administrators of other colleges and universities.
Many of them lie and misstate their numbers to make it look better than it actually is. It is more than just focusing on the successful graduates.
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Remember the old joke "A small town that can't support one lawyer can always support two."
I don't think I have heard that joke.
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I don't think I have heard that joke.
I don't think it's actually a joke.
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I don't think I have heard that joke.
You have now :P
Good luck finding a job out of law school
Fixed ;)
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http://www.businessinsider.com/samuel-browning-and-michael-leichter-flow-chart-2013-10
I think this is surprisingly accurate and should be dated, signed and attached to your law school application to certify that you still want to apply nonetheless.
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I didn't realize when I started working on an accounting/business degree, that you have to work for a CPA firm doing audits for a year in order to get your CPA cert after taking the test. :facepalm:
Plus that auditing requires almost constant travel, which might be okay if you are single and just out of college and like to party. In fact the CPA firm recruiters basically said that partying with the crew every night was virtually required for "team spirit" blah blah blah. Not exactly a preferred lifestyle when you are 40 and married and have mid-school age kids =(
Fortunately, I also took a lot of computer classes. =)
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Things are tough for law school graduation just like other professional degrees. The economy has been short sheeted by our rulers. But never fear. Law is the one profession that can go out and create its own industry. I cite asbestos litigation as the first and biggest. Then there is cigarettes. Gas cans is the most recent addition though there are a number of industries with which I am not familiar. Seems to me the most likely industry on the horizon will be identity theft associated with Obamacare. One could imagine the federales imposing tort reform in this case but I doubt it.
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When you factor in student loans, it's getting to a place where getting anything above a bachleor's degree in any field isn't worth it....even tech school grads end up making more than college grads in the first five years....
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http://www.businessinsider.com/is-law-school-worth-the-money-2013-12#ixzz2tGqsFgYW
Momma, don't let your babies grow up to be lawyers.
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Yup
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Also seems like its not longer a job interview and you get hired, instead you take part in internship then maybe you get hired by the company.
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Also seems like its not longer a job interview and you get hired, instead you take part in internship then maybe you get hired by the company.
Well, given the market they can string folks along. Max Work for Min Pay, always more where that came from, and no worries about getting a bad rep for the practice because that is what everyone is doing.
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I had diner with a friend from law school last week, in town for a meeting. He's an intellectual property lawyer. Passed the patent bar, got hired by a big company. He's now a VP in the company. He said that the IP area is growing as fast as the tech field is growing. Not just in-house jobs working for the companies, but also firms paying IP guys to work to protect their product as well. It also appears that, for those so interested, cyber crime is also a growing field.
Maybe the changing tech has eliminated some old jobs (writing will and other documents) but is creating another field altogether...
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^^^ I had so many people tell me that with my science background, I should have gone into IP. When I looked at it, I thought it was dreadfully boring, but if you can properly write up a scientific patent, you are apparently worth your weight in gold.
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Remember the old joke "A small town that can't support one lawyer can always support two."
Took me a while to catch on to that one. Too true to be funny, though.
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^^^ I had so many people tell me that with my science background, I should have gone into IP. When I looked at it, I thought it was dreadfully boring, but if you can properly write up a scientific patent, you are apparently worth your weight in gold.
Agree a thousand times over on the boredom aspect. My friend said that the job itself is pretty monotonous, but leaves him with time and money for his hobbies...
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I had diner with a friend from law school last week, in town for a meeting. He's an intellectual property lawyer. Passed the patent bar, got hired by a big company. He's now a VP in the company. He said that the IP area is growing as fast as the tech field is growing. Not just in-house jobs working for the companies, but also firms paying IP guys to work to protect their product as well. It also appears that, for those so interested, cyber crime is also a growing field.
Maybe the changing tech has eliminated some old jobs (writing will and other documents) but is creating another field altogether...
If you have no soul, correct. The amount of effort, bribery, unethical behavior, et al that has gone into protecting Steamboat Willie is nauseating. Patent trolling is another key growth IP industry. Basically, sucker the patent into getting a patent that should not be issued in the first place, and sue everyone that's actually productive. Patent troll mills are virtually never actual producers.
To give you an idea of how scummy the field is, the RIAA tried to sneak "work for hire" changes into Satellite Home Viewer Improvement Act of 1999. Another wonderful IP lawyer was Mitch Glazier. He added substantive language into the final markup of a "technical corrections" section of copyright legislation. In English, he used the spelling or grammar changes section of a bill to stripping artists of their copyrights and gave them to the record labels. Then got immediately hired on by the RIAA as a Senior Vice President of Government Relations and Legislative Counsel.
There are a handful of ethical positions in the IP legal field. Submitting patents and copyrights, etc. Defending against patent trolls. The filthy lucre is on the side that'd make Rod Blagojevich blink at the audacity of their depravity.
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My daughters boy friend, after graduating with a four year degree in Medieval History and astonishingly, not finding a job, has decided to go to law school and study "environmental law".
And apparently borrow the money to do so. This did not seem like a good idea to me. Oh, well- . I mentioned my opinion but all they stuff they read must be rah rah .
Once the government gets half the young on the student loan hook, the opportunities for turning the hook into a lever seem endless. Hey, kids, just do what we want for a few years and we will erase that pesky loan!
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My daughters boy friend, after graduating with a four year degree in Medieval History and astonishingly, not finding a job, has decided to go to law school and study "environmental law".
And apparently borrow the money to do so. This did not seem like a good idea to me. Oh, well- . I mentioned my opinion but all they stuff they read must be rah rah .
Once the government gets half the young on the student loan hook, the opportunities for turning the hook into a lever seem endless. Hey, kids, just do what we want for a few years and we will erase that pesky loan!
And just look at those spiffy Black Uniforms !!!
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I know a couple of folks with law degrees that ended up doing licensing compliance for Oracle and IBM. They make good money, but that might just be the most boring and thankless job I can imagine.
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The invisible hand isn't so harsh. Change in Ethics/Practice which outsourced a 1/3 of jobs, Gov Loan Nonsense, and Nefarious Academic Institution Practices.
And the common ingredient in all those problems is that they were created by lawyers. :rofl:
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I guess a lot of them are out scouting for "side effects" of various Rx drugs and procedures. I've sure noticed an uptick in that kind of TV commercial... "If you or a loved one has suffered <fill in blank> or died from taking or doing <this or that>, call me."
Must be a pretty lucrative variation of ambulance-chasing, and they don't even need a car.
It may ultimately devolve into, "If you or a loved one are taking any prescribed drugs or undergoing any procedures, call me, the <Pit Bull, Tiger, Big Fist (pick one)>, at (666) KLondike 5-6661, and let's talk."
I mean, everything has possible negative side effects, right? After all, the drug companies have lawyers writing the exhaustive "side effect" disclaimers to protect their drug-producing asses from any side effect... right?
Which brings us back to the joke about the town that can't support one lawyer, but can support two. :facepalm:
Terry, 230RN