Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander?

[Ron]

This is one of those statements that cannot be proven.  It's impossible to determine what would exist or not exist "without Christianity."  At least it's impossible to determine empirically.  It's just one of those "what if" scenarios that have no bearing on reality.

All we have to work off of is the observed data ie history.

Christendom was and is the prevailing religion of the civilization that has reached the highest technological and I would argue moral pinnacle of human achievement.    

Perfect? No

Capable of adaptation, progress and self reflection? Yes

[bedlamite]

Western civilization as we know it wouldn't exist without Judaism and Christianity the pagans in aincient Greece.

FTFY.

Is it separate from its religions?

Yes.

[Ron]

I love me some Plato and Aristotle.

No reason to strike out Judaism and Christianity.

Unless of course you have an axe to grind and it blinds you to the historical reality.

[White Horseradish]

Christendom was and is the prevailing religion of the civilization that has reached the highest technological and I would argue moral pinnacle of human achievement.    

Is, perhaps. Was - not so much. You do know where the word "algebra" comes from, right?

[Ron]

Is, perhaps. Was - not so much. You do know where the word "algebra" comes from, right?

Look at the fruit of that civilization.

Getting a couple things correct doesn't give you a free pass.

 

[bedlamite]

I love me some Plato and Aristotle.

No reason to strike out Judaism and Christianity.

Unless of course you have an axe to grind and it blinds you to the historical reality.

No reason those two should be the only ones represented either.

[Ron]

No reason those two should be the only ones represented either.

In the history of the western world? 

All other religious traditions are merely footnotes in regards to impact on the moral and civil development of the western world.

[fifth_column]

All we have to work off of is the observed data ie history.

Christendom was and is the prevailing religion of the civilization that has reached the highest technological and I would argue moral pinnacle of human achievement.    

Perfect? No

Capable of adaptation, progress and self reflection? Yes

I don't believe the fact that civilization is "capable of adaptation, progress and self reflection" is due to Christianity.  I believe christianity is capable of adaptation, progress and self reflection because it's been created by humans.  Adaptation, etc. are human traits, if christians have the same traits it's because of their humanity, not their religion.  

Again, it's impossible to prove that the current level of technology would not have been achieved without christianity.  It's a specious argument.

[Ron]

I don't believe the fact that civilization is "capable of adaptation, progress and self reflection" is due to Christianity.  I believe christianity is capable of adaptation, progress and self reflection because it's been created by humans.  Adaptation, etc. are human traits, if christians have the same traits it's because of their humanity, not their religion.  

Again, it's impossible to prove that the current level of technology would not have been achieved without christianity.  It's a specious argument.

Arguing that Christendom played no (positive) role in the progress of humanity as reflected in the progress of the western world is the specious argument.

What we do know from observation is that the civilization that adopted forms of thought consistent with the theistic view of reality taught in Christianity has progressed exponentially technologically and I would argue morally as compared to other religious or philosophic systems tried.

[fifth_column]

Arguing that Christendom played no (positive) role in the progress of humanity as reflected in the progress of the western world is the specious argument.

What we do know from observation is that the civilization that adopted forms of thought consistent with the theistic view of reality taught in Christianity has progressed exponentially technologically and I would argue morally as compared to other religious or philosophic systems tried.

How could you possibly think that I'm arguing "Christendom played no (positive) role in the progress of humanity as reflected in the progress of the western world"?!?!?!?

I'm saying you cannot prove your assertions.  Full stop.  Any further assumptions on your part are just that. 

Far be it for me to disallow someone their beliefs.  Just do not put words into my mouth.  And I understand how easy it is to hold one's own belief system in high regard, however truth is not contingent on belief.   

[Ron]

How could you possibly think that I'm arguing "Christendom played no (positive) role in the progress of humanity as reflected in the progress of the western world"?!?!?!?

I'm saying you cannot prove your assertions.  Full stop.  Any further assumptions on your part are just that. 

Far be it for me to disallow someone their beliefs.  Just do not put words into my mouth.  And I understand how easy it is to hold one's own belief system in high regard, however truth is not contingent on belief.   

You're just dancing.

You ascribe all the positives, the fostering of technological and moral progress that I've attributed to the Judeo/Christian worldview to merely being the natural human condition.

I disagree, vehemently, and history bears me out IMHO.

Ideas have consequences.

 

[fifth_column]

You're just dancing.

You ascribe all the positives, the fostering of technological and moral progress that I've attributed to the Judeo/Christian worldview to merely being the natural human condition.

I disagree, vehemently, and history bears me out IMHO.

Ideas have consequences.

I honestly can't dance.  I think what you're saying is that christianity is the source of all that's good in the history of the world, and anything not related to christianity is either bad, or non-existent.

With which I disagree vehemently, and history is better viewed with as few filters as possible.

This is a truly un-fruitful discussion.  I'm sorry to have wasted your time.

[Scout26]

Look at the fruit of that civilization.

Getting a couple things correct doesn't give you a free pass.

The ME was the hotbed of learning and science PRIOR to Mohammad going out and conquering it.  The Library at Alexanderia, Hammurabi's Code, and most of the Wonders of Ancient World were created by those we would now call Arabs.   Those civilizations flourished, grew and were developing until their "genetic code" was poisoned by Islam.  After that things came to a stop, and have not restarted.  They develop no new science or technology they only use what they get from the west. 

It's a shame really, that Mohammad wasn't killed early.

[Ron]

I honestly can't dance.  I think what you're saying is that christianity is the source of all that's good in the history of the world, and anything not related to christianity is either bad, or non-existent.

With which I disagree vehemently, and history is better viewed with as few filters as possible.

This is a truly un-fruitful discussion.  I'm sorry to have wasted your time.

Neither unfruitful nor a waste of time.

I don't believe that Christianity is the source of all that is good in the history of the world. There is only one source of all that is good and God is not limited to using a broken failed poor reflection of what the original intent was (speaking of the church).

One thing I continually do is question my presuppositions and how they influence my opinions on matters.

We all view reality through filters, that is human.

Maybe you should question your own presuppositions and make sure you haven't been overly influenced by post modern thought and its materialistic, relativistic cul de sac of nihilism.    

[Ron]

The ME was the hotbed of learning and science PRIOR to Mohammad going out and conquering it.  The Library at Alexanderia, Hammurabi's Code, and most of the Wonders of Ancient World were created by those we would now call Arabs.   Those civilizations flourished, grew and were developing until their "genetic code" was poisoned by Islam.  After that things came to a stop, and have not restarted.  They develop no new science or technology they only use what they get from the west. 

It's a shame really, that Mohammad wasn't killed early.

Ever read Mainspring of Human Progress by HG Weaver?

[MechAg94]

The ME was the hotbed of learning and science PRIOR to Mohammad going out and conquering it.  The Library at Alexanderia, Hammurabi's Code, and most of the Wonders of Ancient World were created by those we would now call Arabs.   Those civilizations flourished, grew and were developing until their "genetic code" was poisoned by Islam.  After that things came to a stop, and have not restarted.  They develop no new science or technology they only use what they get from the west. 

It's a shame really, that Mohammad wasn't killed early.

There were a number of "learned" cultures from the Middle East to India that were destroyed by the Islamic Jihad and other conquerors before them.  The Middle East itself was a trade nexus that picked up knowledge from all over the known world from China to Europe.  I've never read about anyone tracing the true origin of that stuff, but that might be interesting. 

As for religion in general, as I see it, it is the religious caste (for lack of a better word) that is the first of a developing culture to have the free time to devote to pure observation and research as well as writing.  Master craftsmen might have a great deal of knowledge, but are not likely to write it down or pass it on to anyone but apprentices.  I think many of the early scientists and astronomers in the West were either wealthy themselves or lived with the support of patrons. 

[tokugawa]

Let's all just pretend that western civilization happened in a moral and religious vacuum.

 like they said-  the Constitution is only gonna work with a moral and just people.

 these "satanist" don't give a damn about religious freedom, they are just like the rest of the left extremists- they just want to poke a finger in someones eye. Flip side of the westboro asshats.

[charby]

There were a number of "learned" cultures from the Middle East to India that were destroyed by the Islamic Jihad and other conquerors before them.  The Middle East itself was a trade nexus that picked up knowledge from all over the known world from China to Europe.  I've never read about anyone tracing the true origin of that stuff, but that might be interesting. 

As for religion in general, as I see it, it is the religious caste (for lack of a better word) that is the first of a developing culture to have the free time to devote to pure observation and research as well as writing.  Master craftsmen might have a great deal of knowledge, but are not likely to write it down or pass it on to anyone but apprentices.  I think many of the early scientists and astronomers in the West were either wealthy themselves or lived with the support of patrons. 

I think AzRed has a degree in Eastern Civilization, maybe he can comment.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Look at the fruit of that civilization.

Getting a couple things correct doesn't give you a free pass.

Does Christian culture get a pass for their indiscretions, like wounded knee or how we treat the indigenous population generally.  Or the holocaust? Dresden hiroshima nagasaki? Slavery? The list is long

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[Ron]

Does Christian culture get a pass for their indiscretions, like wounded knee or how we treat the indigenous population generally.  Or the holocaust? Dresden hiroshima nagasaki? Slavery? The list is long

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Of course not.

It is rare to even find someone that attempts to justify any of those (other than the bombings in Japan).

Yet in the middle east denying the Holocaust even took place is par for the course.

I find it odd so many here are infected with some form or another of cultural relativism.

[MechAg94]

Does Christian culture get a pass for their indiscretions, like wounded knee or how we treat the indigenous population generally.  Or the holocaust? Dresden hiroshima nagasaki? Slavery? The list is long

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Considering the "Christian culture" generally condemns itself for those things, I find that question a bit odd.  How many other cultures do you see that are critical of their own past mistakes and such?  How many other cultures sought to eliminate slavery without outside influence?  Everyone FROM WESTERN CULTURE likes to condemn western culture, I don't often see that same trend elsewhere.  

It also sort of depends on what stadards you are judging by.  There have been hundreds and thousands of slaughters, massacres, and bad things in human history.  Often, they are par for the course at the time they happened.  Few people go back and condemn Alexander the Great who sold entire cities into slavery after capturing them more than once.  The treatment of the American Indians was really very little different from what the British did around the world.  Doesn't make it right or okay, it just is.  

Also, if you are going to blame all Christian/Western culture for something like Wounded Knee, isn't that sort of the same thing the people who committed that massacre did?  Massacred one set of "Indians" for something some other "Indians" did? 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Of course not.

It is rare to even find someone that attempts to justify any of those (other than the bombings in Japan).

Yet in the middle east denying the Holocaust even took place is par for the course.

I find it odd so many here are infected with some form or another of cultural relativism.

these events didn't happen in a vacuum  it took many players  and are you really gonna try to say that the way we treated indians lacked popular support?
you know what chivingtons "day job" was?
http://www.denverpost.com/thornton/ci_18052780

[Ron]

these events didn't happen in a vacuum  it took many players  and are you really gonna try to say that the way we treated indians lacked popular support?
you know what chivingtons "day job" was?
http://www.denverpost.com/thornton/ci_18052780

I guess my sentence should have read "rare today".

Of course westward expansion and many of the other atrocities had popular support, otherwise they probably wouldn't have happened.

Regarding native Americans read up on Roger Williams who I referenced earlier as being influential on my thoughts; not only regarding religion and civil authority but also on how the US should have treated native Americans.   

Not all native Americans were the same either, some would have pushed back no matter how nice they were treated. They were not going to share the land period. There was nothing more noble about native Americans than there was about the colonists and settlers. All humans acting like humans act. Yet we look back in horror now and say we will never do that now. Never Again etc.

Nobody currently justifies conquering lands and subjugating the people. There is a difference between judging folks over 200 years ago by our standards and the type of self flagellation that is in vogue. I feel no guilt over how native Americans were treated. That doesn't mean I think it was appropriate or moral.

 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

You think its over? The case involving the gov ripping em off on the trust funds escape you?

Or you believe that our gov was unaware of the activities of the nazis?


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[Ron]

You think its over? The case involving the gov ripping em off on the trust funds escape you?

Or you believe that our gov was unaware of the activities of the nazis?


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I know very little about the trust fund issue and doubt there is anything more nefarious going on than what it being perpetrated against the public at large regularly. It would surprise me greatly if it was some conspiracy against them because the red man are savages or unworthy of government protection as lesser citizens 

Our government has deceived and lied to the public at large for over half our history. Maybe even from the beginning, that's what governments do best.

We weren't nearly as militarily adventurous back then as we are now.  WW1 didn't leave a lot folks all excited to go gallivanting across the globe righting wrongs by military force, especially wrongs perpetrated upon a much maligned minority (the Jews).

The Machiavellian machinations of our government frequently run counter to the values and ethics of the people at large.

Culture and government aren't synonymous although government is very very active these days in shaping culture. It would be so much easier if it weren't for those damn Christians