Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on September 03, 2017, 05:36:48 PM
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http://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/2017/09/02/cheap-sex-is-making-men-give-up-on-marriage-author-says.html
Or why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.
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http://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/2017/09/02/cheap-sex-is-making-men-give-up-on-marriage-author-says.html
Or why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.
Yeah. Buy the cow and get no milk!
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Pre marital sex and relationships is a very different thing than actually being in a supportive, healthy marriage. Both can be good, and fun, and healthy, but they aren't really comparable.
The milk being compared is not the same.
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Pre marital sex and relationships is a very different thing than actually being in a supportive, healthy marriage. Both can be good, and fun, and healthy, but they aren't really comparable.
The milk being compared is not the same.
2% verses Whole.
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I don't believe in that homogenized marriage!
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I don't believe in that homogenized marriage!
What about all organic and hormone free?
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What about all organic and hormone free?
Oh, there's GOING to be hormones.
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Oh, there's GOING to be hormones.
Unless you get a cougar that has already gone through the change.
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Unless you get a cougar that has already gone through the change.
You've got a lot to learn.
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God knows marital sex is expensive. As a wag once said, if it flies, floats or , well you know, you are better off leasing.
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Here's an observation from someone who deals with failing relationships at work, and also does a lot of volunteer work with teens. First, young people feel no pressure to marry, other than what mommy may put on them. Living as a couple without marriage is no big deal anymore. So they do. Second, and how do I put this delicately, self love with internet visual stimulation is so accepted, college kids just don't rush relationships. We've been doing college tours with my son, and I'm surprised by stores openly displaying aids for such activities. It's a different world.
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I think it's more complicated than the article asserts...a large factor is the economic environment, which everyone refuses to acknowledge. Most moral codes are essentially economic, marriage especially, so any analysis should start there.
It's one of the curious inversions of progressivism to talk about rights in terms of groups and collectives, but analyze behaviors in terms of individuals. Hence poverty is always analyzed through case studies of the unfortunate, and case studies of the evil rich, distracting from the broad economic and policy causes such as welfare, inflation, over-regulation, and taxation.
This is an old playbook which is becoming increasingly reminiscent as modern US journalism converges to the Soviet journalism. Step one, avoid drawing attention the economy, or economic suffering. Step two, if you have to talk about it, distract by making it sound like a feature, or making it sound like it's not really a problem. Certainly not a fundamental problem with socialism/progressivism.
Real wages have been stagnant for generations, manufacturing jobs are gone, pensions are gone, and unemployment is high. When young people find it necessary to move regularly just to chase the few decent jobs left, it's not desperation. It's just the millenials are "the go generation" and "don't feel tied down to their hometowns like previous generations".
When the American dream of owning a home and car is out of reach of young people, it's not evidence of an economic crisis. It's just that "young people today are choosing not to own a car" and are "significantly less likely to tie themselves down with home ownership, preferring more flexible living arrangements".
When the average age of female childbirth, and male parenthood, are both at record highs, it's not because young people are graduating with crushing debts that don't actually increase their earning potential, and both of them have to work to make the same standard of living that their parents had with only the man working. It's not any of that. It's just they are choosing to get married later because of changing attitudes about sex and internet porn...not that the willingness to shack up and the porn epidemic are the result of dire prospects for successful marriage.
These aren't the droids you are looking for. Everything is paradise in the Soviet union. American Progressive politics work.
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Here's an observation from someone who deals with failing relationships at work, and also does a lot of volunteer work with teens. First, young people feel no pressure to marry, other than what mommy may put on them. Living as a couple without marriage is no big deal anymore. So they do. Second, and how do I put this delicately, self love with internet visual stimulation is so accepted, college kids just don't rush relationships. We've been doing college tours with my son, and I'm surprised by stores openly displaying aids for such activities. It's a different world.
You and others are missing another issue: the costs for marriage have risen and are nearly entirely borne by men. (Owing to the fact as to who is most likely to suffer loss from a divorce, especially an acrimonious one, evidenced by who the majority of divorces are initiated by (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2015/08/27/why-women-are-more-likely-to-initiate-divorce/?utm_term=.2e003f88b242). )
We've simultaneously devalued marriage and made it more expensive. We've also created completely unrealistic expectations for both sexes that they bring into a marriage.
Disney is of course part of this, but the hook-up culture is as well.
And who is it that suffers the most from all of this? Nope, it's not women, nor is it men. Children are suffering the most. We've moved from a culture that expects a person to accept responsibility and sacrifice in order to provide children with the best possible environment for their upbringing to making EVERYTHING about what the adult wants.
Need to "find yourself"? Drop your spouse.
Get bored with your spouse? Drop him.
Find an upgraded model? Drop your spouse.
Decide that your spouse isn't your soulmate? Go searching.
Our society encourages adults of both sexes to consider that marriage is supposed to be all about what the individual wants. Not about your spouse, not about your children, and not about the family.
Further, our legal system has been set up to make dissolving a marriage as easy as possible for females.* Unsurprisingly, women are responsible for the divorce 2/3 of the time.
We live in a profoundly immature culture.
*Not that men aren't prone to the same stupidity, because they do all of the above as well. It's just that the legal system isn't encouraging these choices for men.
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Need to "find yourself"? Drop your spouse.
Get bored with your spouse? Drop him.
Find an upgraded model? Drop your spouse.
Decide that your spouse isn't your soulmate? Go searching.
Quoted for truth. Went through that with my then SO many many years ago. :old:
Funny now, but about a year into the relationship (both getting ready to start college) I proposed a five year contract to be exclusive while in school. With the option to renew or formalize via marriage if we both were head over heels with each other. "Nope, we ARE getting married."
Even funnier, we split up about five years later, dissolving the legal contract of marriage we had at that time. :facepalm:
I think we as a culture should consider other familial arraignments as options when possible or intended kids are in the mix. I've always liked the idea of a line marriage as described in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
Of course, I've been an unreasonable man...
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I think we as a culture should consider other familial arraignments as options when possible or intended kids are in the mix.
What do you think we've been doing?
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if you want to be married and have children, you should be prepared to stick it out through hard times for the sake of the child. If you aren't doing that, you shouldn't be getting married and having kids.
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I think makattak is right. Around 50% of marriages end in divorce, of which 70% are initiated by the wife. Typically, this ends with the man losing his house and custody of his kids, and paying the woman who divorced him large sums of money for years.
A lot of these young men no doubt saw their fathers put through this.
A lot of men don't want to get married because they have seen marriage turned into a weapon to destroy decent men when the wife gets "unhappy."
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A lot of men don't want to get married because they have seen marriage turned into a weapon to destroy decent men when the wife gets "unhappy."
While I'm sure that does happen, it the majority of marriage failures I've seen have been contributed to by both parties. The "guy got screwed by evil wife" meme is popular among guys and their friends, but it's not as common as the men would like you to believe.
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While I'm sure that does happen, it the majority of marriage failures I've seen have been contributed to by both parties. The "guy got screwed by evil wife" meme is popular among guys and their friends, but it's not as common as the men would like you to believe.
Funny, though. It isn't 50/50 on who files for divorce.
If the fault (as you suggest) is 50/50, but the filings are 70/30... hmmm... let's think about that...
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While I'm sure that does happen, it the majority of marriage failures I've seen have been contributed to by both parties. The "guy got screwed by evil wife" meme is popular among guys and their friends, but it's not as common as the men would like you to believe.
Wife looking over your shoulder while you typed? =D =D =D
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dogmush, when the wife gets unhappy, the courts almost automatically give her cash and prizes (home, custody of the kids and money) in the divorce.
When men divorce their wives, they lose the house, the kids and lots of money.
Wives who divorce get rewarded. Men who divorce get punished.
No surprise that 70% of divorces are filed by the wife.
The wife can do this for any reason or no reason.
Marriage has become a "contract" that one party can break for no reason and be rewarded by the courts. That is sick, and a lot of men don't want to be victimized by it.
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I think makattak is right. Around 50% of marriages end in divorce, of which 70% are initiated by the wife. Typically, this ends with the man losing his house and custody of his kids, and paying the woman who divorced him large sums of money for years.
A lot of these young men no doubt saw their fathers put through this.
A lot of men don't want to get married because they have seen marriage turned into a weapon to destroy decent men when the wife gets "unhappy."
A person I know has a 30 something son. His girlfriend got pregnant. He wants to get married, but she is reluctant. Apparently, her parents were divorced and she was put through a lot as one of the kids. His parents have been married for decades.
My take from that is part of this might be the kids of divorced parents being reluctant to jump into something that made their parents and them unhappy.
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While I'm sure that does happen, it the majority of marriage failures I've seen have been contributed to by both parties. The "guy got screwed by evil wife" meme is popular among guys and their friends, but it's not as common as the men would like you to believe.
From personal observation, where the plural of anecdote is not data, it's roughly a 50/50 spit of who I think is probably at fault for the divorce. No, call it closer to 25/25/50. Quarter of the time it's the husband's fault, quarter of time it's the wife, half the time it's bloody well both parties.
Unsurprisingly, ask a bunch of dudes who gets hosed worse in divorces, they'll say men. Ask women, they'll likely say women.
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A person I know has a 30 something son. His girlfriend got pregnant. He wants to get married, but she is reluctant. Apparently, her parents were divorced and she was put through a lot as one of the kids. His parents have been married for decades.
My take from that is part of this might be the kids of divorced parents being reluctant to jump into something that made their parents and them unhappy.
This is something that I would think to be a major factor in current marriage rates. I don't know anyone who was a child of divorced parents that aren't at least a little squirrelly about the whole concept of marriage.
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dogmush, when the wife gets unhappy, the courts almost automatically give her cash and prizes (home, custody of the kids and money) in the divorce.
Like Rev said, the plural of anecdote is not data, but at least among my friends (and my soldiers, whose divorce details I get to track to make sure they're doing the right thing) it's not as automatic for the woman as lots of folks seems to think.
If she keeps the house, then he gets half the value (positive or negative) in cash. Single custody is almost unheard of, and the courts try very hard for 50/50. If custody is 50/50, there will rarely be child support. Alimony takes a spouse who never has and/or can not work and has no skills. Assets and debts tend to be split pretty evenly. Perhaps Florida is on the leading edge of equality in marital law, but I doubt it. I will say that enforcing a divorce decree can be a challenge, especially if there is a lot of hurt feels, but the decrees themselves are pretty even, from the 15-20 I've had the misfortune to have to look at over the last decade.
Generally speaking talk to anyone that is divorced (male or female) and they will tell you they got screwed by the courts. If everyone feels screwed, that's a sign of a pretty fair system.
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A person I know has a 30 something son. His girlfriend got pregnant. He wants to get married, but she is reluctant. Apparently, her parents were divorced and she was put through a lot as one of the kids. His parents have been married for decades.
My take from that is part of this might be the kids of divorced parents being reluctant to jump into something that made their parents and them unhappy.
I don't know... I suspect it's more of a wash, if you could compare that number of couples or individuals 'avoiding marriage' to people staying married, because kids coming from divorce who did get married might be just as likely to stick it out and not want to create a ton of havoc simply because they're not "happy" or "in love" anymore.
Although I can agree coming from a divorced family could also "normalize" divorce too for currently married people. It certainly removes the potential for social pressure or stigma from your parents if they are divorced too.
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Single custody is almost unheard of, and the courts try very hard for 50/50. If custody is 50/50, there will rarely be child support.
You may well have joint or 50/50 custody for things such as decision-making, but the child(ren) still primarily reside with one parent and thus have primary residential custody. And in those situations, there is child support awarded. This is the typical arrangement for Washington, for example. I get involved in these situations at work, and for the past several years, I cannot recall seeing a situation in which the child(ren) evenly split the time living with the two parents.
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You may well have joint or 50/50 custody for things such as decision-making, but the child(ren) still primarily reside with one parent and thus have primary residential custody. And in those situations, there is child support awarded. This is the typical arrangement for Washington, for example. I get involved in these situations at work, and for the past several years, I cannot recall seeing a situation in which the child(ren) evenly split the time living with the two parents.
It must be a state by state thing. Most of the custody arraingments I see, assuming the parents are within 50 or so miles of each other, are like 3 days a week at one, and 4 days at the other. (mon-thurs, and fri-sun, usually) Extra time is made up on holidays and or summer vacation. Perhaps my snark was unwarranted and Florida really is on the leading edge of divorce equality.
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It must be a state by state thing. Most of the custody arraingments I see, assuming the parents are within 50 or so miles of each other, are like 3 days a week at one, and 4 days at the other. (mon-thurs, and fri-sun, usually) Extra time is made up on holidays and or summer vacation. Perhaps my snark was unwarranted and Florida really is on the leading edge of divorce equality.
Not only is it state-by-state, but also divorce-by-divorce. In Illinois, custody is always "joint", unless one parent is an addict, in jail, or some other reason they shouldn't be near their kids. However, the parenting time is normally sent to a 3rd party lawyer for mediation, before the rest of the trial, to see if you can come an agreement (and the mediators push hard for agreements, stating that if you don't agree they will enter a motion as to what they think it should be be.) Otherwise, you can argue your reasons in front of the judge and he won't be happy and can do whatever he wants as far as dividing up time, holidays, costs, etc.
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I don't know... I suspect it's more of a wash, if you could compare that number of couples or individuals 'avoiding marriage' to people staying married, because kids coming from divorce who did get married might be just as likely to stick it out and not want to create a ton of havoc simply because they're not "happy" or "in love" anymore.
I think you're assuming that an unhappy marriage is just as difficult for the children as the divorce would be, and that the marital problems won't be worked out within the marriage.
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I think you're assuming that an unhappy marriage is just as difficult for the children as the divorce would be, and that the marital problems won't be worked out within the marriage.
Having been the joyful child of multiple failed relationships, I can safely say that when it's not working, it sucks for the kid major big time.
That split was the best thing ever.
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Aside from all the things mentioned herein, my biggest concern is that a huge number of millennials (and whatever comes after millennials) are not actually seeing healthy long term relationships being modeled *by anyone*. Not parents, friends parents, people at church. It ain't being done. And I'm not talking about long term non-marital monogamy, either. I'm talking about multiple, often double digit numbers of people who drift in and out of their lives.
Needless to say, many of these kids are not well adjusted or suited for productive society, nor will their children be.
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Having been the joyful child of multiple failed relationships, I can safely say that when it's not working, it sucks for the kid major big time.
That split was the best thing ever.
OK, but don't a lot of people say just the opposite; that the divorce was "the worst thing ever," and they wish their parents had stayed together?
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This is an excellent book about the topic: "Men on Strike"
https://www.amazon.com/Men-Strike-Boycotting-Marriage-Fatherhood-ebook/dp/B00OFK22Y8/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
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I think you're assuming that an unhappy marriage is just as difficult for the children as the divorce would be, and that the marital problems won't be worked out within the marriage.
Having been the joyful child of multiple failed relationships, I can safely say that when it's not working, it sucks for the kid major big time.
That split was the best thing ever.
I guess I'm not talking about an "unhappy marriage" in the context of fighting or alcoholism or abuse etc. in that case, splitting up and getting out, and giving the kids some stability is definitely better, or at a minimum orders of magnitude "less bad". I'm talking about just "meh" where you're not happy or in love, but everything is fine, or both spouses are doing a decent job of hiding "quiet desperation".
OK, but don't a lot of people say just the opposite; that the divorce was "the worst thing ever," and they wish their parents had stayed together?
I'd say when it's miserable/fighting/abuse constant stress and tension and the kids get more calm and stability out of the split than staying, it's "better".
It's in my scenario where there's nothing "bad", just no joy or nothing "good" going on, and everything is boring and civil and functional, that the divorce is the "worst thing ever" to the kids.
So I'm wondering if there's kids of divorce who are now married, and aren't "happy" but won't divorce because being unhappy, but nothing majorly wrong being too frivolous to create the chaos of a divorce. The parent or both parents "taking one for the team" and forsaking their own happiness to give the kids stability and security.
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FWIW, I'm not advocating that anyone remain in a situation where they're actually being abused.
I was just listening to some of Albert Mohler's "Briefing" podcasts, and he mentioned a study that said high school kids were also giving up on dating. Well, not really, but they apparently don't go out as much as kids used to. And, across the ocean, ethnic Europeans aren't replacing themselves. This kind of thing is why "the death of the West" has become a stock phrase.
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*shrug*
There are so many different scenario's that contribute to what is an unhappy marriage, especially because you have two people involved and there are a lot of types of abuse, some of which are largely invisible and those are some of the worst.
Obviously, if the two people married cannot even function in the same house, it's better for everyone if they split regardless of who's at fault. This is what I grew up with.
However, I also do think that sticking in an unhappy marriage, even one which is too all outward appearances is functional isn't the answer either and I don't think it's really better for the kids. Kids pick up on these things and learn from these things. Yes, divorce is scary, but growing up and thinking that a "good" marriage includes being quietly miserable isn't really a great thing either.
Ultimately, though, we are looking at this from the wrong side whenever we discuss marriage from the perspective of divorce. I don't think trying to go backwards in how we as a culture deal with divorce is any kind of answer. I think we need to spend more time on promoting good matches to begin with.
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Obviously, if the two people married cannot even function in the same house, it's better for everyone if they split regardless of who's at fault.
I'm not talking about your personal history; just the situation you've outlined above - I will suggest that the best solution for most troubled marriages is for the couple to seek some kind of help in being more giving to one another. The best kind of help is found at the foot of the cross. And no, I'm not talking about just going to church, or other such outward things. And, yes, I know that so-and-so tried it, and it didn't take in their case. I know.
(And to repeat myself, I'm not suggesting that abused women should keep going back for another boxing match. That's why I said "most troubled marriages," not all of them.)
I think we need to spend more time on promoting good matches to begin with.
I agree on the goal you've set here. I'm going to suggest the way we get there is to model good matches for children, so they know how it works. (Yes, that can be difficult, but I don't think there's another way. Some things don't have a short-cut.) Then, encourage the kids to do the standard "get a diploma/degree, get a job, and get married before you have kids" routine. That makes them better "matches." Again, those things aren't always easy.
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Then, encourage the kids to do the standard "get a diploma/degree, get a job, and get married before you have kids" routine.
Why? because it's been working so well? It hasn't been working well at all. Based on the actual data, rather than conventional wisdom, we should be encouraging young people to get married earlier and younger.
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I didn't say people should wait to marry. I said they should have kids after they got married. Who said they should put off marrying?
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Then, encourage the kids to do the standard "get a diploma/degree, get a job, and get married before you have kids" routine. That makes them better "matches." Again, those things aren't always easy.
HS diploma is pretty much worthless these days. It's only enough for the kind of job that won't really support a family. A degree means a ton of debt and uncertain earning potential.
This is the standard routine of 50 years ago, and it doesn't work very well now.
I didn't say people should wait to marry. I said they should have kids after they got married. Who said they should put off marrying?
You did. You have two things in your list before "get married" at least one of which takes multiple years.
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Oh boy. Have you guys really never heard the "three rules" to avoid poverty? They're based on research, and they go something like this.
1. Get at least a high school diploma.
2. Get a full-time job.
3. Get married before you have children.
That's all I'm talking about. According to those who did the research, the vast majority of people who follow those rules are able to avoid poverty. It's true that the Brookings Institute (who originally wrote the rules) adds that you should not marry before the age of 21, but until I looked it up just now, I wasn't aware of that.
Oh, and no one's ruling out a vocational education, either. I didn't expect that "diploma/degree" would be interpreted so hyper-literally.
https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-teens-should-follow-to-join-the-middle-class/
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I have three ex wives. I also raised the two children from my first wife as a single Dad. 14 years. That was easier then living with the then wife, who was a bi polar nightmare.
When a relationship turns toxic, which happens with appalling frequency, it's better to bail than to try to fix it, or live with it.
I have been married now for 25 years. Very compatible, very happy. If for some reason I were to find myself single again, I doubt seriously if I would look for another permanent mate.
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We're passed 35 years. If the Mrs. punches out before me, which is a possibility with her health issues, no way in hell would I consider remarrying.
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no way in hell would I consider remarrying.
Well, damn.
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Who needs all the drama...
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/643384/Sex-robots-dolls-brothel-prostitutes-buy-video (http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/643384/Sex-robots-dolls-brothel-prostitutes-buy-video)
[barf]
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Ejected last October after 20 plus years. Don't see myself doing anything that involves paper every again.
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22 years when the ex- walked, 26 years before it was final. Not doing that ever again...
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Well mine was on life support for the 4-5 years. More like living with a roommate that put out occasionally than a partner and wife.
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Mine was on Lifesupport for 18 years. Want to know why my kids are 7 years apart ?? Guess... And then when it looked like I might die, she was afraid that she'd be stuck lots of medical bills (We had good insurance, so cover the $2500/year deductible and that's it.), and I had (still have) a metric Revload of life insurance, plus I had (still have) disability insurance. I think the difference between what I was making working and what I got on disability was $10 per month.
She still can't manage money...
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I think the personal accounts here are a pretty good indication as to why men don't want to get married anymore.
Our culture has turned turned marriage into garbage.
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If I end up single, never getting married again.