Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MechAg94 on February 11, 2018, 09:32:33 PM
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-remingtonoutdoor-bankruptcy-exclusive/exclusive-u-s-gunmaker-remington-seeks-financing-to-file-for-bankruptcy-sources-idUSKBN1FT04C
(Reuters) - Remington Outdoor Company Inc, one of the largest U.S. makers of firearms, has reached out to banks and credit investment funds in search of financing that will allow it to file for bankruptcy, people familiar with the matter said on Thursday.
The move comes as Remington reached a forbearance agreement with its creditors this week following a missed coupon payment on its debt, the sources said. The company has been working with investment bank Lazard Ltd (LAZ.N) on options to restructure its $950 million debt pile, Reuters reported last month.
Remington is seeking debtor-in-possession financing that will allow it to fund is operations once it files for bankruptcy, the sources said. The size of the financing and timing of Remington’s bankruptcy plans could not be learned.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/02/08/remington-financing-bankruptcy/
This comment was buried at TFB. There is more to it than that this time I think, but a fair point.
It's like people have forgotten Remington has been in this exact position a number of times before. The most well known is when they got fat and complacent on Spencer contracts and nearly went bankrupt after the Civil War demilitarization, but were saved by the Rolling Block design, on whose coattails they rode for a full thirty or so years before growing fat and complacent once more. Then they were saved by the efficiency of production of the 700 and 870 compared to competitors like Winchester or Ithaca, and then --you guessed it-- rode those designs' coattails for fifty straight years while growing fat and complacent.
The problems I am thinking of from recent years are 1)Rem 700 rifle trigger safety issue and lawsuit, 2) the R51 9mm pistol that failed in production, 3) the RP9 9mm that sort of fell flat, and 4) numerous QA/QC issues that I have heard about in recent years. Some people seem to like their 1911 though.
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Big Green gets its *expletive deleted*it together QC wise and they'd be fine. How hard is it to make an 870 that runs out of the box?
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They got behind the market based on the what we've always done model. Late and pricey to the game when every Tom, Dick, and Tactical Ted wanted an AR. Affordable and accurate deer rifle? Savage, crushing. Affordable pump gun, get a Mossberg. The duck hunters dived on Benellis and other autos long ago. Maybe I miss it, but where did they have a market sector locked down?
Gun safe full and I own two Remingtons, an 870 police I bought NIB 15 years ago and an 870 express I turned into a facsimile of the police model, albeit a longer barrel and mag. Nothing they make excites me.
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I am in the same boat on what I own. An 870 and an 1100 shotgun. The 1100 I got a couple years ago and was manufactured in the 1960's. Both pre-date Freedom Group. I have little desire to buy anything else they make. I did have a 1911R1, but sold it recently. The 1911R1 seemed to be a pretty good 1911 variant.
I was considering the R51 9mm a few years back, but decided to get something else. Glad I avoided it. More recently, the RP9 came out and it just didn't do much for me. Those are selling for low prices now and I am still not tempted.
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I own only one Remington firearm, a Remington Model 8... =D
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I own only one Remington firearm, a Remington Model 8... =D
You mean you don't have a New Model Army? ???
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And, of course they had to buy Marlin first and mess up that company before going bankrupt.
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Currently, I actually own no Remington products. And all of the ones I owned recently I found lackluster to similar products from other companies.
Hell, I think the fit and finish on the turk made Winchester pump gun I bought was better than the 870s I looked around the same time when I was in the market for a pump gun.
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I have a couple Remingtons that have found their way into my collection.
Of course none of them are younger then I. I've found their recent offerings to be pretty dismal in terms of fit, finish, and function.
It's a shame, because I REALLY wanted to like the R51, but they just messed it up by the numbers. I saw a new one for sale at a gunshow last month, but the guy selling it said they were still having function issues.
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I thought someone here got a Remington 1911 and thought it was the bomb. Seems like one of the few things they got right recently.
If you ever get a chance to rack the slide on an 870 from the 60's, then immediately rack the slide on a modern 870, man, it's like the difference between human made and monkey made.
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The only Remington I currently own is my nearly 20yo 870 Express. I originally purchased it for hunting, but it has long since been a dedicated HD gun. Like Darth Vader, it hardly resembles its former self. Magpul furniture, Mossberg 18" barrel, Vang Comp safety and mag follower, Volquartsen extractor, action springs from the Police model have been added in the last couple years.
It runs great (it did in stock form as well) and has yet to hiccup even when run fast.
I'll be using it in an upcoming shotgun class (https://www.fpftraining.com/products/shotgun-skills)
Chris
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I lucked into a couple of early 70's 870 Wingmasters being surplussed from a corrections department. Got a pair for $175/ea.
So smooth.
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I never seem to luck into those deals before they sell out. However, at this point, I'd rather have a 410, 28g, or 20g instead of another 12. I'm not likely to find those in a Corrections Dept sale. :)
Chris
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I thought someone here got a Remington 1911 and thought it was the bomb. Seems like one of the few things they got right recently.
If you ever get a chance to rack the slide on an 870 from the 60's, then immediately rack the slide on a modern 870, man, it's like the difference between human made and monkey made.
Perhaps I'm disremembering, but didn't they basically farm out production of their 1911 and stamp Remington on the side?
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Perhaps I'm disremembering, but didn't they basically farm out production of their 1911 and stamp Remington on the side?
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IDK. I just remember someone here (41mag maybe?) giving a rave review (and maybe it was actually another 1911 - it was a ways back). Rave enough that it had me considering it on the "next 1911" list.
On the old vs new, I also have a ~10-15 year old 870 Express HD, along with a Mossberg 500 combo (on which I keep the 18" barrel). The 870 Express is by no means a terrible gun. I just had the opportunity once to do the comparison I mentioned, and there was no comparison.
I find the Rem and the Mossy to be pretty close. The main reason I give the nod to the Mossy is that it's a little more lefty friendly. Which I guess works well for me, because I think the general gunny population still sees 870s as "the" pump gun, so I should do okay when I sell it. :)
While some might say the old 870s are "broken in", I don't know if that is the major component on the "smoothness". When I was a kid, my best friend and I had birthdays a couple of days apart. We each got our first shotgun on the same birthday, 1973 I think. I got a Winchester 1200 and he got an 870 Wingmaster. I don't remember the exact difference, but to this day I remember how jealous I was whenever we traded guns in the field.
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Three Remingtons here...
Model 81 in .300 Savage
Model 700 in .243
Model 58 in 12 gauge
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Oh, I have to throw in that i have a 788, which I will never sell. What a great (and inexpensive at the time) rifle.
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I've owned an 870, Mossberg 500, and spent time with a Winchester 1300. Of the three, the 870 felt the most solid.
Chris
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I've got an 870 Express I bought in '94. Good solid gun. I've also got dad's Fieldmaster from the early '60s, it's a wonderful little rifle.
My brother got dad's 870 Wingmaster, also an early '60s version, a beautiful piece of work.
Having had my Express and dad's Wingmaster disassembled side by side. While form and function were nearly identical there was a huge difference in fit and finish of internal parts.
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As much as I like my 870, it holds zero candles to the Ithaca 37 police trade in I got for $100.
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I thought someone here got a Remington 1911 and thought it was the bomb. Seems like one of the few things they got right recently.
Was not I, but I do remember that thread. And I remember thinking at the time "How hard is it to not screw up at 100 year-old proven design ??"
And unless Remington can come up with some earth-shattering new gun deisgn in the new 6 months to a year, they should sell their tooling and focus on Ammo. It would take a while, but at least with that product(s) it might be able to pay off it's nearly billion dollar debt.