Author Topic: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us  (Read 55061 times)

roo_ster

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #125 on: March 21, 2011, 07:43:59 PM »
But you do learn who's serious about debt reduction when it comes time to take shots at 3rd worlders.

Damn straight.

The local school district is facing serious cuts in its budget.  10%-20% is the estimate.  So, what does the district board of (misplaced) trustees do?  They want the voters to approve a multi-million dollar bond package.  I mentioned that maybe an economic downturn might be a poor time to take on new debt and just pay as we go.  Yeah, crazy talk from roo_ster again.
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roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #126 on: March 21, 2011, 08:26:44 PM »
Show us a Muslim nation that isn't run by a tyrant.  Islam requires totalitarianism.

Indonesia. Mali. Kosovo. Albania. We've been through this. Islam requires no such thing.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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longeyes

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #127 on: March 21, 2011, 09:17:25 PM »
Yes, all exemplary states.  Right.  All very enlightened.  Shall we go country by country?  Indonesia is a hotbed of religious conflict.  Kosovo?  The main drug artery leading to Europe.  Albania--ask the Italians.  Mali.  My next vacation spot, how'd you know?

You've been through it, because you are trying so hard to convince yourself that peace is just around the corner.  Maybe if I lived in Israel I'd have the same hope.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #128 on: March 21, 2011, 10:02:58 PM »
Yes, all exemplary states.  Right.  All very enlightened.  Shall we go country by country?  Indonesia is a hotbed of religious conflict.  Kosovo?  The main drug artery leading to Europe.  Albania--ask the Italians.  Mali.  My next vacation spot, how'd you know?

You've been through it, because you are trying so hard to convince yourself that peace is just around the corner.  Maybe if I lived in Israel I'd have the same hope.

Yes, all of those are exemplary states as compared to an actual dictatorship.

In the same way the United States in the 1940's still had compulsory sterilizations, racial conflict, and rigged elections - but it was miles better than the people it fought against.

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #129 on: March 21, 2011, 10:04:15 PM »
Any country with regular semi-fair elections, even partial free speech, and a functioning legislature is in an entirely different world as compared to jackwagons who strafe protesters with CAS planes.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #130 on: March 21, 2011, 11:41:19 PM »
Any country with regular semi-fair elections, even partial free speech, and a functioning legislature is in an entirely different world as compared to jackwagons who strafe protesters with CAS planes.
This bears repeating.

We aren't looking for utopia in Libya, just an improvement over what's there now.  Even if we end up with a new dictatorship replacing the old, so long as the new dictator doesn't murder Americans (or other foreigners) it'll be a net improvement for us (and the rest of the world).

Jamisjockey

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #131 on: March 22, 2011, 08:03:53 AM »
Oh....just lost an F15 over Lybia.  Suppossedly mechanical failure, pilots might have been rescued.  What's an F15 cost again?
JD

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kgbsquirrel

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #132 on: March 22, 2011, 08:11:15 AM »
Oh....just lost an F15 over Lybia.  Suppossedly mechanical failure, pilots might have been rescued.  What's an F15 cost again?

With or without the decades of use they've been put through? I thought it was clear those things needed replacement when a couple disintegrated in flight when put under moderate G loads.  =|   I don't think you could get very much for them on the surplus market now, so another question, through it's useful lifespan, did we get our money's worth?


By the by, it's being reported that the crew were rescued by Libyan rebels. I suppose that's a good sign with regards to rebel sentiment towards America.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 08:16:01 AM by kgbsquirrel »

Jamisjockey

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #133 on: March 22, 2011, 08:13:22 AM »
With or without the decades of use they've been put through? I thought it was clear those things needed replacement when a couple disintegrated in flight when put under moderate G loads.  =|   I don't think you could get very much for them on the surplus market now, so another question, through it's useful lifespan, did we get our money's worth?

Something else needs to be put up in its place, and that counts as replacement cost.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

kgbsquirrel

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #134 on: March 22, 2011, 08:25:47 AM »
Something else needs to be put up in its place, and that counts as replacement cost.

In that cast, the F-22, at a unit cost of $150M (2009 USD), but replacing the F-15's of a ratio 5.45:1 (Approximately 1020 F-15's of various models purchased versus 187 F-22's) giving an individual replacement cost of.. Approximately $27.5M (2009 USD), which is less than the original purchase cost of $28-30M (1998 USD) or, adjusted for inflation, $36.7-39.3M (2009 USD).


So that mechanical failure was worth $27.5M going by it's replacement cost.

I still think that probably isn't wholly accurate though as the plane was utilized through out it's useful life span, rather than being lost prematurely before a full return on the original investment that was the manufacturing costs (such as the F-22 that was lost in Alaska only a year or two after rolling off the assembly line). Also it's replacement was created before the aircraft's loss or decommissioning (the F-22's), so the $27.5M individual replacement cost also doesn't really count as it was going to be spent/has already been spent regardless of the final disposition of this F-15.

*shrug* Anyone wanna tally the numbers for what it cost to go pick the crew up, properly "thanking" the rebels (hey, I'm not above monetary reward if a semi-friendly faction rescues and returns our people for us), and any modern ordnance the bird was carrying that was lost?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 08:33:54 AM by kgbsquirrel »

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #135 on: March 22, 2011, 09:47:05 AM »
It was a mechanical failure?  Did it have anything at all to do with the Libya operation?


Jamisjockey

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #136 on: March 22, 2011, 10:31:44 AM »
It was a mechanical failure?  Did it have anything at all to do with the Libya operation?



Yep.  It was being flown in combat operations over Lybia.  Would we have still lost the airframe elswhere?  Possibly.  But at least we could have sacrificed it in the actual defense of our assets and nation.


Dear China:
Can we borrow some money to go around the world overthrowing despotic leaders who kill off thier own people? Oh...wait....  :lol:
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #137 on: March 22, 2011, 10:47:00 AM »
So if that faulty fighter had met its end during a joyride somewhere over the English countryside, that would have been a good and noble use for the plane, but losing it in an operation to bring down a foreign leader who kills American servicemen and civilians is just a waste.

mtnbkr

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #138 on: March 22, 2011, 10:52:34 AM »
So if that faulty fighter had met its end during a joyride somewhere over the English countryside, that would have been a good and noble use for the plane, but losing it in an operation to bring down a foreign leader who kills American servicemen and civilians is just a waste.

If he wasn't bad enough to take him down 25-odd years ago (yeah, we bombed him, but didn't or couldn't finish the job), or again less than a decade ago, why now?  Why are Libyans so precious we have to waste our resources to topple this guy?

Chris

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #139 on: March 22, 2011, 11:06:54 AM »
If your question is "why now?" then the answer is simple.  Because it's never going to be easier than it is right now.  

There's a bit more to it than that, but that's the immediate and obvious answer.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #140 on: March 22, 2011, 11:50:18 AM »
By the by, it's being reported that the crew were rescued by Libyan rebels. I suppose that's a good sign with regards to rebel sentiment towards America.


it endears them to my heart but historically we've not always lived up to our obligations to those that helped us like this.  ho chi minh comes to mind. 

or these folks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AiyFF9qOls
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

CSM Kersh

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #141 on: March 22, 2011, 11:53:36 AM »


Quote
Nobel Committee asked to strip Obama of Peace Prize
By Joseph E Lovell.
 
 
 
The Bolivian President and a Russian political leader have launched a campaign to revoke Obama's honour after the US attacked Libya.


Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/304909#ixzz1HLObv3DJ

Works for me.... >:D


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roo_ster

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #142 on: March 22, 2011, 11:57:05 AM »
If your question is "why now?" then the answer is simple.

BHO understands we have no interest in their tribal warfare and it is boob bait for a whole lot of not-so-conservatives?



Also, combat operations are a wee bit more taxing on equipment, what with the enemy shooting real bullets.  Also, no friendly airfields to land on as there likely would be somewhere over Airstrip One.
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roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #143 on: March 22, 2011, 11:58:35 AM »

Also, combat operations are a wee bit more taxing on equipment, what with the enemy shooting real bullets.  Also, no friendly airfields to land on as there likely would be somewhere over Airstrip One.

Just what equipment has been shot up over Libya?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #144 on: March 22, 2011, 12:05:58 PM »

Works for me.... >:D


Do you know who Zhirinovsky is?

The clowns in your local circus are about as relevant to foreign policy. Albeit less entertaining.

This is Zhirinovsky. NSFW for language and disgusting racist talk. This is how this man actually acts.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 12:13:10 PM by MicroBalrog »
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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roo_ster

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #145 on: March 22, 2011, 12:17:55 PM »
Just what equipment has been shot up over Libya?

Even if Muomar's boys never manage to shoot down one of our jets, the risk of total loss of equipment is greater during combat operations over enemy territory.

1. Increased optempo that allows whatever probabilities govern non-enemy-caused mechanical failure more opportunities.
2. Increased optempo likely cuts into PM or precludes more extensive evaluation of equipment given a lesser optempo.
3. Increased probability of failure to harder use, due to reaction to increased number of threats and/or greater magnitude of those reactions.
4. In the event of a non-catastrophic failure, there is nowhere safe to land one of our jets.  Enemy airfields are either cratered or still in the hands of Muomar.  If they were flying over DFW, there are about 20 airfields they could land at, recover the aircraft, and repair it.

This is not rocket science, folks.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Perd Hapley

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #146 on: March 22, 2011, 12:18:57 PM »
If he wasn't bad enough to take him down 25-odd years ago (yeah, we bombed him, but didn't or couldn't finish the job), or again less than a decade ago, why now?  Why are Libyans so precious we have to waste our resources to topple this guy?

Chris

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TommyGunn

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #147 on: March 22, 2011, 12:21:16 PM »
Do you know who Zhirinovsky is?

The clowns in your local circus are about as relevant to foreign policy. Albeit less entertaining.

This is Zhirinovsky. NSFW for language and disgusting racist talk. This is how this man actually acts.
:O  What a buffoon! ;/ ;/
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MillCreek

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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #148 on: March 22, 2011, 02:32:11 PM »

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/03/drones-suicidal-cousins/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Index+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

From the above article:

From the outside, the Block IVs look much like their predecessors: a little over 20 feet long, and about 3,300 pounds. Like the older models, they’re still expensive, too — at about $1.1 million a pop, the initial assault on Libya chewed through $134 million in missile costs alone. They can fly for about two hours or 1,000 miles, whichever comes first.

Still a heck of a lot cheaper than losing expensive personnel and aircraft.  Aircraft can be replaced.  Personnel not so much.
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Re: The US attacks yet another country that has not attacked us
« Reply #149 on: March 22, 2011, 04:03:54 PM »
Related to topic:
http://www.skynews.com.au/world/article.aspx?id=592071&vId=
Quote
Bolivian President Evo Morales has called for US President Barack Obama's Nobel Peace Prize to be revoked following his decision to attack Libya.
:laugh:

It's funny to see all these people treating Obama like they did Bush. I wonder what DU's saying about this.