OK, So What is Your Read on McChrystal's Public Statements

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

McChrystal's orders are to win the war in A-stan, so the point is moot.

[Waitone]

An active duty generals job is not to win wars, it is to do what his civilian boss tells him to do to the best of his ability.

<shiver>Where do I start.  Naw, I won't.  It'll do no good.

[mellestad]

<shiver>Where do I start.  Naw, I won't.  It'll do no good.

No, please do.  Tell me why a general should choose winning a war over doing what he is told by potus.

[Perd Hapley]

Why?  If his main purpose in life is to win wars, then he will do whatever it takes regardless of what his civilian leadership tells him to do.  That is just begging for eventual military dictatorship.  The military is led by civilians for a reason.

Now that is even funnier.   :rolleyes:


Anyway, he's fighting a foreign enemy, while frustrating the more dangerous domestic enemy (the current U.S. regime).  When the elected leadership is so viciously anti-American, we'll have to bend some rules to destroy them.  But we must.  This is NOT politics as usual. 

[mellestad]

Now that is even funnier.   :rolleyes:


Anyway, he's fighting a foreign enemy, while frustrating the more dangerous domestic enemy (the current U.S. regime).  When the elected leadership is so viciously anti-American, we'll have to bend some rules to destroy them.  But we must.  This is NOT politics as usual. 

Oh I see, so it *is* an Obama issue then, because everything is about Obama, right?

I agree though, Obama is totally anti-american because he is holding meetings about strategy in Afghanistan.  What a filthy traitor.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

No, please do.  Tell me why a general should choose winning a war over doing what he is told by potus.

You said something about begging for a military dictatorship...?

Now that is even funnier.   :rolleyes:


Anyway, he's fighting a foreign enemy, while frustrating the more dangerous domestic enemy (the current U.S. regime).  When the elected leadership is so viciously anti-American, we'll have to bend some rules to destroy them.  But we must.  This is NOT politics as usual. 

It would not be "rule-bending" if the military acted against domestic enemies.

[mellestad]

Now that is even funnier.   :rolleyes:


Anyway, he's fighting a foreign enemy, while frustrating the more dangerous domestic enemy (the current U.S. regime).  When the elected leadership is so viciously anti-American, we'll have to bend some rules to destroy them.  But we must.  This is NOT politics as usual. 

Man, I am really at a loss about how to have a conversation with you in the thread.  I bring up a totally non politically aligned opinion, and before I know it you run off about anti American regimes and domestic enemies.

You said something about begging for a military dictatorship...?

Did you have a specific point you wanted me to elaborate?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Are you not aware that a soldier's primary duty is NOT to follow any order given by his boss?

You might want to review the enlistment oath.

[mellestad]

Are you not aware that a soldier's primary duty is NOT to follow any order given to by his boss?

You might want to review the enlistment oath.

That is moving the goal post a little isn't it?  Are you saying that anything brought up so far is even close to a constitutional violation?

(Edit: If you are pointing out that the actual first duty of a soldier is to uphold the Constitution, then I agree, and I could re-phrase my point if you like?)

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Just found it odd that you could be worried about potential military dictatorships and at the same time claim that a General's job is to do whatever his boss tells him to do.

Tell me though, since McChrystal's orders are to win the war in A-stan, why shouldn't he do so?  If winning the war requires more resources, why shouldn't he make that known to the country?  Why shouldn't he be vocal, insistent, and unyielding about doing what it takes to carry out his orders and winning the war?

[mellestad]

Just found it odd that you could be worried about potential military dictatorships and at the same time claim that a General's job is to do whatever his boss tells him to do.

Tell me though, since McChrystal's orders are to win the war in A-stan, why shouldn't he lobby for the resources needed to win the war in A-stan?

Then I should be clear that I meant what I said in the context of this conversation, not the context of a military oath.  I assumed that would be clear.

Absolutely he should, within the chain of command, which does not include civilian reporters.

[Leatherneck]

Why?  If his main purpose in life is to win wars, then he will do whatever it takes regardless of what his civilian leadership tells him to do.  That is just begging for eventual military dictatorship.  The military is led by civilians for a reason.

 Obviously you've never been a General. Officer? NCO? Any military experience?

The oath all of us, including General McChrystal swore:

I (insert name), having been appointed a (insert rank) in the U.S. Army under the conditions indicated in this document, do accept such appointment and do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter, so help me God.

TC

[Perd Hapley]

Oh I see, so it *is* an Obama issue then, because everything is about Obama, right?

I agree though, Obama is totally anti-american because he is holding meetings about strategy in Afghanistan.  What a filthy traitor.

If it was about Obama, I would have said "Obama," rather than "the regime."  Obama, Reid, Pelosi, the whole lot of them.  Obama is not more anti-American than the rest. 

Man, I am really at a loss about how to have a conversation with you in the thread. 

Good.  We Americans have tried to use reason and civil discourse with your side.  You have not listened to reason, or respected polite discourse.  And so, the time for reasoning is over.  That was your choice.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

What should McChrystal do if he gets conflicting orders from his chain of command (Barry O)?  If on the one hand he's ordered to win the war, and on the other hand he's ordered to do things that will lose the war, which orders should he obey?

[mellestad]

Obviously you've never been a General. Officer? NCO? Any military experience?

The oath all of us, including General McChrystal swore:

TC

I am aware of this.  Does this prove that he should be willing to act against potus for anything smaller than a Constitutional violation?

What should McChrystal do if he gets conflicting orders from his chain of command (Barry O)?  If on the one hand he's ordered to win the war, and on the other hand he's ordered to do things that will lose the war, which orders should he obey?

He should do whatever he was told last.  If following his orders (and those orders do not go against Constitutional law) means the war will tank, then they tank.  If it comes down to it then he should step down.

[mellestad]

...And so, the time for reasoning is over.

I've noticed.

[MicroBalrog]

So you think selecting a different strategy from the one you favor is treason? No, seriously?

[Leatherneck]

Obviously you've never been a General. Officer? NCO? Any military experience?

The oath all of us, including General McChrystal swore:

TC

I am aware of this.

Then please answer the questions I asked.

TC

[mellestad]

I guess I should ask you Headless:  Is it appropriate for a subordinate officer to publicly cast doubt and refuse (hypothetical) lawful orders from his lawful superior?

That is all this issue is about, you can pull the politics out of it.

[mellestad]

So you think selecting a different strategy from the one you favor is treason? No, seriously?

Was this to me?  If so, of course not.

Then please answer the questions I asked.

TC

No.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

He should do whatever he was told last.  If following his orders (and those orders do not go against Constitutional law) means the war will tank, then they tank.  If it comes down to it then he should step down.

I do believe that's where this is leading.  McChrystal and Obama will go back and forth for a while.  Eventually McChrystal will choose to resign rather than try to satisfy the schizo conflicting orders from a CinC who can't make up his mind whether he wants to win the war or lose it.

I guess I should ask you Headless:  Is it appropriate for a subordinate officer to publicly cast doubt and refuse (hypothetical) lawful orders from his lawful superior?

That is all this issue is about, you can pull the politics out of it.

If Obama wants the war to end, then he should give that order.  That's a directive McChrystal could carry out effectively.  

The current scheme of Obama telling McChrystal to win the war, while simultaneously acting to ensure that McChrystal can't win the war, is completely untenable.  Not to mention unconscionable.

[mellestad]

I do believe that's where this is leading.  McChrystal and Obama will go back and forth for a while.  Eventually McChrystal will choose to resign rather than try to satisfy the schizo conflicting orders from a CinC who can't make up his mind whether he wants to win the war or lose it.
If Obama wants the war to end, then he should give that order.  That's a directive McChrystal could carry out effectively.  

The current scheme of Obama telling McChrystal to win the war, while simultaneously acting to ensure that McChrystal can't win the war, is completely untenable.

So what is there to argue about?

I will not poke the strategy issue with a ten foot pole, I am in no way qualified to speculate on McChrystals strategy plans or how to win the war in Afghanistan, if such a thing is even possible.  I was not even aware Obama was denying McChrystal anything at this point.

[mellestad]

Time to go, have a good night.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Eh.  My overriding point is that McChrystal is following his orders by lobbying for more resources to win the war.  His methods may be a bit unconventional, but that's a result of the unusual situation McChrystal finds himself in, with a CinC who doesn't particularly want to see those orders carried out.

[Leatherneck]

I believe we have a troll in our midst. Imagine that!

TC