Parents crushed by student loans taken out for their kids

[MillCreek]

^^^ I am keeping an eye out for some interesting courses on Coursera and the like.  There is a bunch of stuff that I would like to study from the sheer enjoyment of it, and not to get a ticket for job purposes.  So from that perspective, the free online open courses look really interesting.

PS: I just signed up for a Coursera course beginning in January 2013: Astrobiology and the search for extraterrestrial life

[Tallpine]

we've spent decades beating into our children that they must go to college

So they can pay taxes to support everybody else 

[birdman]

The best return on investment for college is an engineering degree.  Period.  Also, I don't know a single person who paid for their own engineering grad school.

Actually the best ROI is not f$&@ing up in HS and getting into a REALLY good engineering school.  Ever wonder what fraction of MIT grads who want a job are employed the INSTANT they graduate?

[brimic]

The best return on investment for college is an engineering degree.  Period.  Also, I don't know a single person who paid for their own engineering grad school.

Actually the best ROI is not f$&@ing up in HS and getting into a REALLY good engineering school.  Ever wonder what fraction of MIT grads who want a job are employed the INSTANT they graduate?

But but engineering is hard and uses a lot of that math stuff and doesn't have the social conscience of a degree in curing feminine itch with hemp oil. *


*This is a fictional degree, but I'm positive it will be in the offerings within the next few years.

[MillCreek]

a degree in curing feminine itch with hemp oil. *

*This is a fictional degree, but I'm positive it will be in the offerings within the next few years.

I am reasonably certain that we already have naturopaths and other alternative healthcare providers in the Seattle area that specialize in this.  Medicinal marijuana, indeed.

[mtnbkr]

The best return on investment for college is an engineering degree.  Period. 

Folks said the same thing about IT when I was first getting into the industry in the mid 90s. 

I seem to recall a downturn in the Engineering field back in the 80s.  My neighbor across the street was affected by this.

I don't recall the details.  I was a Freshman in HS and recall my parents talking about all the laid off engineers looking for work and how our neighbor was one of them.

Chris

[birdman]

Folks said the same thing about IT when I was first getting into the industry in the mid 90s. 

I seem to recall a downturn in the Engineering field back in the 80s.  My neighbor across the street was affected by this.

I don't recall the details.  I was a Freshman in HS and recall my parents talking about all the laid off engineers looking for work and how our neighbor was one of them.

Chris

The singular, let alone plural, of anecdote is not data.  The only real downturn was in the defense industry in the early 90's, but that was mainly in older engineers as the younger went to software.

Engineering professions are consistantly in the top quintile or better average salary professions, and given that the number of engineers isn't limited (and thus driving up their salary) like doctors and lawyers with their credentialing organizations, that's damn impressive.

Sure, there may have been slow growth periods, but no where near literally ANY other profession.  Also, given the need for engineers, and the steady decrease in their graduation rates combined with older ones retiring, the deman will only get higher. 

[Pharmacology]

It's Obama's stash of Free Money that is causing the problem.

Federally guaranteed loans (what are Staffords at now?  I got mine at the unsubsidized max of $2500/freshman, $3500/soph, $5500 each year for junior/senior years) make it easy for schools to increase their tuition to gobble up free money.

Except the money isn't free on the back side of the equation. 

Do away with fed school loans, and tuition will go down.  Same thing with tax rebates for solar panel installations.  Those will drop in price, about equal to their tax subsidy value.

There are no subsidized loans anymore.

[cosine]

The best return on investment for college is an engineering degree.  Period.  Also, I don't know a single person who paid for their own engineering grad school.

Actually the best ROI is not f$&@ing up in HS and getting into a REALLY good engineering school.  Ever wonder what fraction of MIT grads who want a job are employed the INSTANT they graduate?

Thankfully, I figured this out while still in high school. For a while I planned to study music performance in college since I loved playing the piano and clarinet, but then I realized that performance seats in ensembles were extremely competitive. I decided that wasn't for me, and instead attended one of the SE WI schools with a decent engineering program (Marquette University). I graduated Magna Cum Laude in electrical engineering and held three summer internships during my undergraduate years which helped me graduate with little debt. I'm currently an electrical engineering grad student and, surprise surprise, have a research assistantship with tuition included.

Engineering instead of music was a good decision.

[MechAg94]

I would also say that many of the common engineering degrees are pretty flexible and can carry you into a number of different industries.  The main thing to me is to look at what you are good at and look at what sorts of jobs you think you want.  Pick a degree that fits that and a school that you can afford that goes you there.  

IT was mentioned.  A lot of engineers do process controls.  Simple programming is only part of it.  The better controls engineers understand network comms and all the software that makes the systems work.  I guess a big part of engineering is just problem solving.  

A friend who I graduated Mech Eng with ended up going to law school for patent law.  Apparently an engineering degree and a little experience makes that law degree a lot more valuable.  

[MechAg94]

There are also technical degrees available as 1 year plans or 2 year associate degrees.  Process operations, instrumentation, electrical can turn into productive careers with some hard work.  Getting the right education can jump start you into those careers also with a much shorter and cheaper time and cost.  Around here, the junior colleges offer a lot of technical degrees/classes related to hands on jobs.  For someone who likes working with their hands, those can be careers. 

The chemical and refining industries dominate the Texas gulf coast.  Not sure what might be near you.

[MillCreek]

A friend who I graduated Mech Eng with ended up going to law school for patent law.  Apparently an engineering degree and a little experience makes that law degree a lot more valuable.  

With my chemistry background, I was encouraged to go into patent law, and people were surprised when I did healthcare instead.  Patent can pay pretty well, but it always struck me as somewhat boring.

[Tallpine]

I guess a big part of engineering is just problem solving. 

Ya think     


Engineering tends not to be a career position.  You make good money when you are working until the project is finished and then you are looking for another job.

Lots of relocating unless you can mostly work from home.

[birdman]

Ya think     


Engineering tends not to be a career position.  You make good money when you are working until the project is finished and then you are looking for another job.

Lots of relocating unless you can mostly work from home.

Depends on the type of work and the company. 

[ArfinGreebly]

My parents couldn't afford to send any of us (five) to school, and none of us paid our own way either.

Results:

• My older sister ran off to Taos with a tennis bum and later become a professional mooch, having learned to game the welfare system.
• I did a military stint, a decade of rehab and educational volunteer work, and then cross trained myself into computer programming; been doing that for more than 30 years.
• Younger brother did several years as a volunteer, worked as an electrician for a while, then launched a career as an investigator, currently a licensed PI.
• Youngest brother did a volunteer stint, learned electrical, built a career as a security/central vac/home theater/etc. installer.
• Younger sister worked retail for years & made okay money, then decided to do long-term volunteer, which she is still doing as a financial specialist.

Except for my older sister, none of us ever took a hand-out.


Wife and I could not afford to bankroll any of our kids in college either.

My own kids:

• One died.
• Oldest daughter finished high school two years early, worked in comms (law firm), personnel (PR firm), and construction (ran electrical & HVAC crews).  Moved east and worked as exec for a health spa, left there and went to work for a private school.  Now works (with her husband) at a private boarding school, and I reckon she'll be there for the duration.
• Son did a year of college, but had to drop out in his sophomore year because of the demands of his full-time programming job.  He's still working as a programmer.  Paid off his loans in under three years.  He makes more than I do.
• Youngest daughter is the vagabond.  Tried college, decided it sucked.  Lots of low-paying "meh" jobs.  Currently selling insurance in Hawaii.  She is beginning to rethink her decision to "hate working with effing computers."  Some years ago she showed a talent for Web design, like her brother.  He stayed with it, she didn't.

Nobody living on welfare.

No crushing debt.

My wife has a degree (UNLV) in MIS & accounting.  She opines that the degree has done virtually nothing for her.  She runs a "remote executive assistant" business from home, and has for more than ten years -- and for six of those her income has outperformed mine.  We paid off her student loans more than ten years ago.

Oh, and -- even without a friggin' degree -- I taught college classes (computer languages) for five years.

I no longer recommend college.  I now recommend getting out into the business world and swinging whatever hammer you've chosen.

My personal experiences may have influenced this point of view.   =D

[HankB]

. . . Engineering tends not to be a career position.  You make good money when you are working until the project is finished and then you are looking for another job . . .

That's very true if you're working for a defense contractor, but is not necessarily the case in industry. I've been doing engineering for the same large, diversified company for a little over 33 years (although things are a bit dodgy in my division right now - low sales) and have moved from project to project, division to division. The challenges are outsourcing and H1B visas, both of which are downward pressures on salaries. 

[Tallpine]

Depends on the type of work and the company. 

Well, maybe I'm not a newkulurr fizzist like you with a very fine hat 

That's very true if you're working for a defense contractor, but is not necessarily the case in industry. I've been doing engineering for the same large, diversified company for a little over 33 years (although things are a bit dodgy in my division right now - low sales) and have moved from project to project, division to division. The challenges are outsourcing and H1B visas, both of which are downward pressures on salaries. 

Some work is defense, some is civilian aviation - which goes "boeing, boeing" a lot. 

Right now I'm actually overseeing a bunch of Indian developers 

[MillCreek]

^^^ My Dad worked as an aeronautical engineer for Boeing from 1950 to 1990.  He worked in divisions for bombers, missiles, rockets and commercial aviation.  He came really close to be laid off a couple of times but managed to keep on board.

[Tallpine]

^^^ My Dad worked as an aeronautical engineer for Boeing from 1950 to 1990.  He worked in divisions for bombers, missiles, rockets and commercial aviation.  He came really close to be laid off a couple of times but managed to keep on board.

Remember that a lot of Boeing work is actually subcontractors: little outfits like GE, etc 

[De Selby]

Some folks encouraged me to go to law school. I looked up the stats on how many people passed law school, and roughly how many legal positions tended to open up every year.

It can be a powerful tool - if you're sure you'll end up at the top of your game.  I'm glad I did it because it lets me hop borders and grab a decent paycheck along the way.

[MillCreek]

DS, does an American law degree qualify you to take the Bar and practice law in Australia?  Or are you working in a job that does not require the Bar?  Most countries are pretty protectionist of their professions, and a degree and license to practice in one country does not necessarily mean you can do so in another country without going to school again or passing their licensing scheme.

[Pharmacology]

The best return on investment for college is an engineering degree.  Period.  Also, I don't know a single person who paid for their own engineering grad school.Actually the best ROI is not f$&@ing up in HS and getting into a REALLY good engineering school.  Ever wonder what fraction of MIT grads who want a job are employed the INSTANT they graduate?

Things are looking up now,  but just a couple years ago,  my brother had one hell of a time finding *any*  job for about 7 months after graduation.
And that was with his airtight resume, GPA, etc...

[roo_ster]

I guess a big part of engineering is just problem solving.  

If you are an engineer and are not solving problems, you are doing it wrong.

FTR, my job title includes "engineer"(1).  My sheepskin says "Physics/History."  

Some engineers look all funny at me, like I am a freak.  I figure a physics degree is just a broad-based education in everything any engineer might want to work on, ever, and move on.  Given where I landed, a physics degree was the better preparation than an engineering degree.

It is fun work.

Engineering tends not to be a career position.  You make good money when you are working until the project is finished and then you are looking for another job.

Lots of relocating unless you can mostly work from home.

I told my dad who I was hiring on with out of the service and he said somethign to the effect of, "So, you're going to become a missle gypsy?"








(1) But does not include "sanitation."

[AZRedhawk44]

If you are an engineer and are not solving problems, you are doing it wrong.

FTR, my job title includes "engineer"(1).  My sheepskin says "Physics/History." 

(1) But does not include "sanitation."

I remember in the late nineties, a lot of the engineering schools and industry groups were quite butt-hurt over the Microsoft MCSE credential (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer).  They tried to get MS to remove the word "Engineer" from it, as they felt it demeaned their work and gave an overinflated sense of self worth to MCSE's who basically just right-clicked on stuff that was already pre-programmed by real software engineers and designed by real chip engineers.

[De Selby]

DS, does an American law degree qualify you to take the Bar and practice law in Australia?  Or are you working in a job that does not require the Bar?  Most countries are pretty protectionist of their professions, and a degree and license to practice in one country does not necessarily mean you can do so in another country without going to school again or passing their licensing scheme.

An American licence qualifies you to take just a few courses to be licensed - there isn't really an equivalent of the bar exam here.  But I haven't done it and haven't needed to working on law reform.