Late night ramble about earning a living

[Art Eatman]

jef, for sure get out from under those student loans asap.  As for residence, it seems to me that whatever lets you have minimum overhead ranks pretty high.  

If I were single and just starting out, I just might finance a 24- or 28-foot travel trailer.  $150/mo plus lot and utilities, if there's a decent job nearby, and debt service on student loans is much easier.  And if the job plays out, moving to a new job is easy--and you're always sleeping in the same bed.

Side benefit:  Learning neatness discipline.

Art

[Monkeyleg]

jefnvk, it seems like lately the people driving the most expensive cars look like folks who just graduated from college, got the "offer you can't refuse" from the credit companies, and are now headed down a dangerous path.

My wife keeps the list of all of the bills due for every month in a bound notebook. It goes back to the early 1980's, when I was really just getting started in my career.

Last night we were looking through those old pages, and we were astounded at how much we were paying toward credit cards and other loans.

If we'd had the wisdom to not buy what we could not afford at that very moment, and instead invested that money, we'd be retired by now.

There's folks like me that have had to learn the hard way. You have the benefit of the advice of many people here who have been down that road already. Use that advice.

[brimic]

My wife and I have a plan.

We want to be a millionaire couple by the time we are in our 50s.
We have about 20-25 years left to accomplis it.

We both put 10% of our income rightof the top into our 401Ks at work.
We max out our Roth contributions every year.
We carry no debt except our mortgage.
We already have the house we have owned for 5 years 1/4 of the way paid off, and plan to have it payed off in the next 15 years.
We put a minimum of 25% of our income into savings, which we roll into our brokerage account 2 or 3 times a year.
Our bank account seems to grow at a rediculously fast rate.  we splurged last year and bought a new 4x4 for winter and family trips, I drive an old beater pickup truck that I have to use a bungee cord to hold the driver's door shut on, my wife's commuter car is 8 years old as well. A year after paying for the new truck in cash, we already have more in our account than we did before we bought it.

We do all of out own home improvements- sweat equity. We are also building a vacation home in Upper michigan, again doing it with sweat equity.

My wife often complains that the neighbors appear to have more 'stuff' than us, nicer clothes, expensive motorcycles, boats, cars, etc. I tell her that they only appear to have more money and we may be the richest people on the block.

Between the 2 of us we make around 110K a year. Not exactly wealthy for the area we live in, but very respectable.


I had a bad day of work the other day and did a job search for something else. I like my job, but i often find myself thinking that I might like to do something else better. I came away a little depressed because if I were to start over in a different career, I would take a substantial pay cut, the only jobs that seem to pay nearly as much are engineering jobs and experienced management jobs- I don't have an engineering degree, and only have a few years of relatively low level management experience.

[Waitone]

Planning is a good thing.  Planning according to sound concepts is a better thing.  But life and reality are not compelled to follow your plans.  Life tends to keep you on your toes and if you can't or won't adopt to what comes your way, life will begin to lose its savor.  

I, too, went through the debt lifestyle thingy.  Large income, status, self-importance, etc.  But then things begin to happen and its one disaster after another disaster after another disaster.  Pretty soon you are sitting around with your pot and that's about all you have.  Then you find out there are things infinitely worse than losing all your possessions.  Suddenly everything you worked for, everything you believed, everything you valued turns into dust.  It is then you have a clear understanding of what is important and what is folly.  I would give everything I ever owned or will ever own just to hug a little boy one last time.  

Yea, things are important.  Family, children, and friends is what is important.  Concentrate therein.

[cfabe]

I'm just starting out in my professional life. Graduated in december and got a decent paying job in engineering. Having been involved with a few similar discussions both online and in person with older and more experienced people has helped me understand what it takes to live a sound financial lifestyle. It's really as simple as living below your means, and saving the surplus. Let the jonses keep up with the other jonses and live your life for yourself. Personally, I've resisted the urge to run out and buy a flashy new car after getting my new job. Instead, I jacked up the 401k to the max and started using the rest of my money toward my student loans. I must confess that I did splurge on an inexpensive motorcycle, which cost a few weeks net pay. I leave myself about $500 a month for personal expenses, which is plenty for me as a single guy. When the loans are paid off, I'll be redirecting the same ammount of money into savings to buy a nice piece of land out in the sticks in a couple years, with no financing, hopefully.

Thanks for the advice guys.

[K Frame]

I bought way low, when the market was in the toilet in DC, back in 1993.

I now have nearly $350k equity.

I'd LOVE to get a bigger house (I love big houses), but McMansions that were going for $300 just 4 years ago are now over $1 million, for the same damned house.

[Art Eatman]

I harp a lot about "overhead".  I found that if I learned how to do things myself, I didn't have to pay others to do a lesser-quality of work.  So, over the years, I got damned good at automotive stuff.  I'd buy a "boogered" car for under Bank Loan.  I'd borrow Bank Loan against the title.  The cash difference paid for necessary parts.  Do whatever repairs were needed.  Drive it and de-bug it, and after six months or so, sell it for wholesale.

I learned carpentry, plumbing and electrical wiring.  And then how to do asbestos shingles.  My engineering work taught me a bunch about structural stuff, as well as concrete.

None of this was overnight; no "instant gratification".  Just plugging along through the years.

My opinion:   Anybody can do it.  All you need is the Want To.

In 1992/1993 I put it all together and built my own house.  I hauled trailer loads of lumber, pipe, windows and wire and fixtures to the site.  I did hire the "basic box" work, to my plans and specs.  After the drying in, I had two guys help with the sheetrock ceiling, and one guy and I did all the panelling, insulating and wiring.  I hung all the doors and did all the plumbing and cabinetry.  My wife did all the staining.  The total on-site time for me was some five months; about a month for my wife.

I gotta admit I did beat my left thumb plumb into submission.

14 acres, 1,400 sq ft, garage, water system, all furniture and furnishings, carpet, etc:  $33/sq-ft.  Plus my and BossLady's labor.  And a bit of scar tissue...

IOW, never quit learning.

Art

I guess it all depends on what you want, and how bad you want it.

[Chris]

Art,

Iwas raised in much the same way, meaning you only pay people to do that which you cannot do yourself.  So, last wekend, I got my butt up on a ladder and painted all of the wood trim on my house.  Neighbors said they hired a guy the year previous that did the work for $150.  I did it myself for about 1/3 of that, spent on paint and supplies.  Plus, I have the satisfaction of knowing I did it myself.

Lerned to fix a toilet's guts when one broke on a Saturday night.  Built the deck on the back of my house.  Built the kids' swing set.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

brimic-- your plan and your timeline are admirable.  I would give large assets to know in my 20's what you have done.

Art-- good advice as always, and I especially liked the thought just starting out with the travel trailer and DIY personal responsibility.

Waitone-- whew.  Pulls it all into perspective REAL fast: "Then you find out there are things infinitely worse than losing all your possessions.  Suddenly everything you worked for, everything you believed, everything you valued turns into dust.  It is then you have a clear understanding of what is important and what is folly.  I would give everything I ever owned or will ever own just to hug a little boy one last time.

Yea, things are important.  Family, children, and friends is what is important.  Concentrate therein."

[Guest]

I typically do my own repairs, too, trust me.

Maybe I shouldn't have had these darned kids, especially that one when I was 18!

Oh, wait..I didn't.

Whatever..money is money. Some things are worth more than money. My kiddos for one..my freedom for another.

Since I'll never be able to retire, I'll stand by my retirement plan..as soon as the kids are both in college, I start drinking, driving fast and chasing young guys.

[Art Eatman]

Young guys, young gals:  Fun toys to play with, as long as you don't have to talk to them.

Art

[Guest]

That's what I'm saying!

[thebaldguy]

I see too many people with too much debt. People have houses they can't afford, cars they can't pay for, and a lifestyle that costs too much.

Many will lose their homes in the future. Mortage defaults/home forclosures are way up. Bankruptcies are so common that our congress had to pass laws tightening requirements. Nobody pays cash for anything anymore. Put it on the card and pay later with interest. It always catches up, sooner or later...

It's sad to see so many people in the 25-40 age group have more money in their tattoos than in a savings/retirement plan.  These are the people who will demand the government take care of them in retirement because they wasted a lifetime and money.

Avoid debt. It is a slow painful financial death. Live within your means.

[Standing Wolf]

I used to judge my insides by other people's outsides. Not coincidentally, I always came up short.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Standing Wolf, that is profound.  "I used to judge my insides by other people's outsides."
And dumb to do, though most of us fall into it at one point or another, until we wise up.

[K Frame]

I used to judge my insides by other people's insides.

Of course the man hunt for the "Mad Gutter of Pennsylvania" went on for many years...

[USP45usp]

Wow, I wished that I had you all when I was younger (about a couple of years ago then I got old, 37 ).

What great advise.

Wayne

[Guest]

My success in life is due to my mother and father who taught a lesson so well that a 15 year old dropout kid with a girlfriend and a pocket full of dope living in a tenement apt. could eventually pull himself up to be a successful biz. owner with little debt.    Thank you Mom and Dad!
 They taught me the important stuff-
   How to buck up and do what I had to do when the doing was not easy.
   How to deny instant gratification for future reward.
   How a stiff upper lip IS important- sometimes you just have to bury your dead and get on with life.
   How to do with out if you can't pay cash.
   How to fix or build  it yourself.

  My big lesson of finance-- We are told thru advertising that we have to have "stuff" to be happy, so we borrow and borrow to get the "stuff" we need till we have to work so hard to afford it that we no longer have time to enjoy the "stuff" we were told would bring us happiness. -- So don't borrow for consumer pleasure- save it for an investment.

[Preacherman]

There's another aspect to this debate - give thanks for your health and strength, for you don't know how long they'll be with you.  I received an on-the-job injury back in February 2004, and after two surgeries, am to be medically retired from my job.  They'll give me a disability pension, but that's only 40% of my salary - still better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, but not great.  I'll have to sell my house, as there's no way I can keep up payments on it on so low an income.  I also have car payments and about $20K in education and medical bills (the latter for my mother, who died recently), but I can barely cope with those.  I'll have to find some sort of work that I can do from home, or on a part-time basis, to make ends meet, as my health won't let me work a normal 8-hour day.

So, if you're healthy, be thankful, and look after yourself!  If I'd injured myself on my own time, I'd have been bankrupt and on the street over a year ago.  As it was, Workers Comp paid my way for quite a while, and also covered my medical costs - but your injury might not be on the job.  I suggest some decent insurance against such injury and loss of income might be very worthwhile.

I'm not complaining, mind you.  I'm sorry that this had to happen, but I still have my mental faculties, and being in the line of work that I am, I'll trust God to help me find the additional work and income I need to make ends meet.  I truly have a lot to be thankful for, compared to some who've suffered similar injuries and are bed-bound for the rest of their lives!

[Smoke]

Being in the banking industry gives me access to a lot of people financial statements...
Most aren't pretty.  Often the higher wage earners are the overspenders.  Betting on tomorrow, but there is always one more toy to buy, buying on credit, living off credit cards.

I worked many years for not much money.  Cowboying is not the career path to take for great wealth.  I did that until I was 30....then wife decided she wanted her own wall to drive a nail in....not a company house.

We never use credit cards except as convienence, pay it off each month.  We make more than the monthly paymnet on the house, and put tax refunds, year end bonuses, etc into debt service.  401k is maxed out (20% goes in mine, 15% in hers) Several investments draft out of our checking account around payday.  

My pickup was bought used and is now 6 years old (and paid for) We bought the wife the very first new vehicle we ever owned this year (I'm 40, she's 41) took advantage of the GM Employee pricing deal or she would have had used.  Her car we sold was 10 years old and had 150K on it.

We were married 10 years before we had kids.  Built a house 3 years ago.  Was able to get a bit more house by doing a lot of work ourselves.  I plan to die in this house.

I basically work two jobs, the wife is employed, we are top wage earners for our area but our area is rural so incomes wouldn't impress many.  Beides the banking gig, I run cattle, not a lot of income all the time but has tax advantages.  ALso always looking for other income opportunities.  I occasionally buy and sell undervalued real estate,  vehicles, and equipment.  One must find money out here in the sticks where you can.

Save all the money you can.  Stay away from debt.  As Art indicated using debt for a tool when you can see a profit is OK, but if you see that profit, the bank won't lend you the money if you're close to bankrupt already. = Lost profit.

Smoke