Defense Distributed suing the State Dept

[Balog]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/07/us/cody-wilson-who-posted-gun-instructions-online-sues-state-department.html?_r=1

I love this, let's hope he wins. Or at least doesn't get Vince Foster'ed. Maybe he can subpoena Hillary's emails. 

[MechAg94]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/05/07/designer-3d-printed-gun-challenges-feds-to-constitutional-duel/
I saw it on this link, but this quote caught my attention.

“We’re facing a situation where anyone—a felon, a terrorist—can open a gun factory in their garage and the weapons they make will be undetectable. It’s stomach-churning,” Schumer said at a news conference in May 2013.

I guess many of these people don't quite realize that you can do that same thing now.  You just might need some machine tools to make it work.  Certainly to make a decent barrel, but that isn't required.  I have heard guns like the Grease gun are very simple.  It is the hefty criminal sentences and aggressive enforcement that keep most from messing with it.

[dogmush]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/05/07/designer-3d-printed-gun-challenges-feds-to-constitutional-duel/
I saw it on this link, but this quote caught my attention.I guess many of these people don't quite realize that you can do that same thing now.  You just might need some machine tools to make it work.  Certainly to make a decent barrel, but that isn't required.  I have heard guns like the Grease gun are very simple.  It is the hefty criminal sentences and aggressive enforcement that keep most from messing with it.

Eh, I'm not sure the prison terms are that long when compared to the other things most felons with and/or wanting a firearm face.  I think it's more pixie dust, wishful thinking, and the lazyness of most criminals that keeps homemade guns from being more popular.

[Balog]

Eh, I'm not sure the prison terms are that long when compared to the other things most felons with and/or wanting a firearm face.  I think it's more pixie dust, wishful thinking, and the lazyness of most criminals that keeps homemade guns from being more popular.

I'd say lack of necessity. Kind of the same reason most criminals don't raise and slaughter their own cattle in order to get a burger, they drive through McDonalds.

[Brad Johnson]

If his plans were for the Liberator then wouldn't the hundreds of thousands dropped, free of charge, all over Europe some seven decades ago kinda make them a previously-exported open source commodity? I'd think that would play a big role in the proceedings.

Brad

[MechAg94]

If his plans were for the Liberator then wouldn't the hundreds of thousands dropped, free of charge, all over Europe some seven decades ago kinda make them a previously-exported open source commodity? I'd think that would play a big role in the proceedings.

Brad

The same thing sort of.  What if someone published the plans for that pistol and instructions on how to make one in your garage?

[RevDisk]

*facepalm*

He has made technical data relating to Category I of the USML (Firearms, Close Assault Weapons and Combat Shotguns), which is specifically covered as "(i) Technical data (as defined in §120.10 of this subchapter)". ITAR has its legal authority defined under 22 U.S.C. 2778 of the Arms Export Control Act. Basically, SCOTUS has held that with few exceptions, the border is nearly Constitutional free zone.

Bernstein v. US Department of Justice is an opening that his lawyers will try to use. Which is a good argument. Currently source code relating to encryption has been given rights under ITAR that is very liberated. If he was smart, he would have written for a commodity jurisdiction. If (correctly) labeled as Cat I (i) ITAR material, he could then sue in federal court arguing Bernstein v Justice Department. In 8 years, we'd get a ruling of Yes or No.

Or he could label the material as ITAR tech data and distribute it only within the United States. State would have a hard time punishing him if he took reasonable steps to forbid foreign nationals access to the tech data. If someone else illegally exports USML tech data without a license, that's their business and not his.

[dogmush]

If his plans were for the Liberator then wouldn't the hundreds of thousands dropped, free of charge, all over Europe some seven decades ago kinda make them a previously-exported open source commodity? I'd think that would play a big role in the proceedings.

Brad

different Liberator.

[KD5NRH]

The same thing sort of.  What if someone published the plans for that pistol and instructions on how to make one in your garage?

The Deer gun would be easier; http://books.google.com/books?id=okQH6zFgDtUC&pg=PA353#v=onepage&q&f=false

Carving the grip positive from soap or wax and sand casting the aluminum would be easier than stamping out the Liberator's sheet metal shapes.  If you don't care about the hollow butt it's dead simple to get something usable.  Drill and tap the "receiver" 3/8NPT and rent a 40S&W chamber reamer for sch80 pipe.  Might even be able to use a toy dart gun's pull-cocking and trigger setup as a basis for the firing mechanism.  (Not that the plastic would last very long, but it's a single shot throwaway anyway.)  Failing that, the old leaf spring flick-to-fire mechanism is easy too.

What it boils down to, though, is that none of these guns are very effective outside of cinderblock-throwing range.  If you want that level of accuracy, you're going to need some specialized tooling.  (Though as 19th century accuracy will attest, not necessarily the modern equipment one might think.)

[Perd Hapley]

If his plans were for the Liberator then wouldn't the hundreds of thousands dropped, free of charge, all over Europe some seven decades ago kinda make them a previously-exported open source commodity? I'd think that would play a big role in the proceedings.

Brad

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/07/us/cody-wilson-who-posted-gun-instructions-online-sues-state-department.html?_r=1

the Liberator, a single-shot pistol mostly made of plastic

It is a 3D-printed gun.

[dogmush]

What it boils down to, though, is that none of these guns are very effective outside of cinderblock-throwing range.  If you want that level of accuracy, you're going to need some specialized tooling.  (Though as 19th century accuracy will attest, not necessarily the modern equipment one might think.)

Disagree.

Given $200 I bet I could make a 5 MOA "sniper rifle*" with no paperwork and hand tools.**

*look at the ranges and shots the DC snipers made. 5 MOA would do it.

**I would buy the barrel, but those are ubiquitous and untracked.

[KD5NRH]

Given $200 I bet I could make a 5 MOA "sniper rifle*" with no paperwork and hand tools.**

*look at the ranges and shots the DC snipers made. 5 MOA would do it.

**I would buy the barrel, but those are ubiquitous and untracked.

Buying the highest precision part premade is cheating.  Might as well buy everything but the receiver of an AK, then use a scrollsaw and hammer to make a sheet metal receiver.

[dogmush]

Buying the highest precision part premade is cheating.  Might as well buy everything but the receiver of an AK, then use a scrollsaw and hammer to make a sheet metal receiver.

I figured you would think that, hence the astrisk.  And if you are talking about gun making skilz, you are right.  That's also why I said hand tools.  I *could* make a rifle from scratch with my tools, but my garage is better stocked then many.

but,

In the context of Defense Distributed, which you will recall claims it's mission is to prove arms proliferation is unstoppable, and good, and gun control laws are futile.  In that context I feel it is a valid point.  Folks are up in arms because you can buy a $1000 printer and make a crappy pistol with GASP! no tracing!.  I pointed out you could buy a $100 barrel and make a better rifle with the same GASP! No Tracing!.  And it'd be effective well beyond cinderblock range.  What's the effective difference?  You talked about getting a .40 chamber reamer.  That's at least as specialized and precision as a barrel.

[dogmush]

I also think it should go without saying at this point that in the terms of "Effective weapons outside gun control" while 3D printers are neat, one of the 4 or 5 polymer 80% lowers are pretty much king of the roost.

A poly 80%, a couple hundred bucks, some time, and a dremel and drill, and you could have a full on machine pistol.  After all if you are making it for nefarious pruposes, an SBR upper and an M16 trigger wouldn't be any harder to make than a Legal AR.

Which is why the hand fluttering over 3D printing amuses me so much.  The iPod intellectuals have really no idea how easy a gun is to make, and seem to think you would need Colt's machine shop, when in reality you need a Harbor Freight drill press.

[Brad Johnson]

Heck, a smoothbore boomstick could be cobbled together with nothing more elaborate than a vise, a welder, and a set of reamers and taps.

Brad

[dogmush]

Heck, a smoothbore boomstick could be cobbled together with nothing more elaborate than a vise, a welder, and a set of reamers and taps.

Brad

Yeah, and one could probably replicate revolutionary war accuracy, maybe a touch  better, maybe a touch worse depending on the bullet profile. I think that's effectively the "cinderblock throwing" range mentioned. Stupid easy, that.  The trick now, as it was in the 1800's, to rifle one. I can (laborously) rifle a barrel on my lathe, but that's kinda specialized. 

A smoothbore shotgun with a choke could be pretty easily manufacturered at home, but I don`t really know enough about shotguns to say I could make a 5 MOA shotgun.

[Nick1911]

Yeah, and one could probably replicate revolutionary war accuracy, maybe a touch  better, maybe a touch worse depending on the bullet profile. I think that's effectively the "cinderblock throwing" range mentioned. Stupid easy, that.  The trick now, as it was in the 1800's, to rifle one. I can (laborously) rifle a barrel on my lathe, but that's kinda specialized. 

A smoothbore shotgun with a choke could be pretty easily manufacturered at home, but I don`t really know enough about shotguns to say I could make a 5 MOA shotgun.

I've mucked about with a process to cut rifling using electrochemical etching.  No cutting forces requiring rigidity, indifferent to hardness of the steel, and dead simple to do in a home workshop.  And, unlike chemical etching, it doesn't tend to undercut the mask nearly as much.

Maybe I'll draft a PDF for open distribution on the process.

[dogmush]

That would be cool, and I'd love to read it.

Of course, this is all kinda a gun nut/nerd "because we  can" thing. There's no reason to muck about with this stuff, or a 3D printer, in the States. A reciever flat, 80% lower, or stolen gun is an order of magnitude easier for a ghost gun.

[Nick1911]

That would be cool, and I'd love to read it.

Of course, this is all kinda a gun nut/nerd "because we  can" thing. There's no reason to muck about with this stuff, or a 3D printer, in the States. A reciever flat, 80% lower, or stolen gun is an order of magnitude easier for a ghost gun.

Absolutely true.

Honestly, even in an internal conflict situation there is more then enough hardware floating around to negate the need for clandestine manufacture.

That said, I think there's value in gaining and distributing the knowledge.  First, the internet is global, and never know when these sort of manuals will be useful to other oppressed peoples abroad.  Secondly - and probably more relevant; the more transparent and open source these methods are, the more futile regulatory efforts appear.

[KD5NRH]

You talked about getting a .40 chamber reamer.  That's at least as specialized and precision as a barrel.

Yes, but it's a simple, relatively easy to get tool that's only needed once per barrel, and produces a significantly better result than any freehand chambering process with a lot less effort.  $75-100, pretty durable, especially for the tolerances needed in a single shot pistol.  Thus, it would likely be passed along after the builder makes himself a few throwaway barrels.  The original purchaser would likely lose a few bucks selling it used, (maybe the cost of a single premade barrel) but subsequent buyers would break even when they resell it.

Also, at least initially, a few gunsmiths ordering a half dozen extra reamers in a popular caliber (to be sold for cash) wouldn't raise any suspicion at all.  Case lots of one particular barrel which then starts turning up in homemade guns would cause a huge investigation.

[Viking]

Making guns is relatively simple. Ammunition might prove a problem, especially outside the US, where the market hasn't been flooded with all the surplus ever, not to mention the ridiculous amounts of commercial stuff and components.

[KD5NRH]

Making guns is relatively simple. Ammunition might prove a problem, especially outside the US, where the market hasn't been flooded with all the surplus ever, not to mention the ridiculous amounts of commercial stuff and components.

Without premade ammo or reloading components, I'd expect the focus to be a grip and firing mechanism with quick-change muzzleloading barrels.  Of course, then finding pipe in the desired caliber becomes less of an issue since consistently casting a ball of an odd size is trivial compared to reaming barrels consistently.

[AJ Dual]

I'd imagine that 3D printing is still in it's infancy, and is probably at a state where the PC market was in the early 80's.

There'll be a time when the tech is mature and at the stage where the PC and mobile computing market is now. Metal printing reaching the desktop. Metal 1911 style 10mm's have been done, barrel and all. (it was done in Inconel...) Perhaps all but the springs. It's actually child's play considering SpaceX uses the same technology to print rocket engine combustion chambers and engine bells.

Multiple media printing combining different plastics and metals. Continually increasing resolution. Higher strength plastics. Fiber reinforcement. Glass/Ceramics... and organic compounds.

Printing lead styphnate and triple-base nitrocellulose formulations might take awhile to come to market, (or, be hacked from consumer level tech. designed to try and prevent it) but I imagine it's coming, eventually.

[KD5NRH]

Printing lead styphnate and triple-base nitrocellulose formulations might take awhile to come to market, (or, be hacked from consumer level tech. designed to try and prevent it) but I imagine it's coming, eventually.

Now that could be interesting; the reloading crowd suddenly starts playing with 3D printed shaped charges.

[Viking]

I just remembered that P.A Luty included a few designs to improvise shotgun ammunition and revolver/pistol ammunition in one of his books. Blank cartridges and a few plumbing supplies to make the shells, loaded with black powder from 12 gauge signalling blanks and BBs in case you can't get proper lead shot.