Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: 209 on January 27, 2009, 05:15:38 AM
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I just saw an article that said the Marines ordered about 8000 M72 LAWs. I always liked the LAW. =) But, the LAW had just about completely disappeared from the military's inventory.
They aren't strong enough for some modern armor applications, but they were relatively light and easy to carry. And they work well against cars and small trucks and modestly fortified positions. But, probably the best thing about them was a lefty could shoot them just as easily as a righty. Try that with an AT4. =| A lefty can do it, but it's awkward as all get-out.
Sometimes old technology is better. But then most gun folks know that.
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A cute little, fold-up bazooka? Ya gotta love those things. =)
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Cool, I like LAWs. You can carry more.
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Maybe someone figured out that instead of trading rounds with bad guys in the next building or trying to get close enough to put a grenade through the window, hitting it with a LAW is more effective?
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It is not just the Marines, but the Rangers like LAWs over the AT4. You can collapse the LAW and stuff it into your rucksack for a jump. The AT4 you gotta strap to your side.
If the balloon goes up, there are enough LAWs to go 'round so that every Ranger could pack a LAW in their ruck. SOP was that once you completed your PLF & yanked the quick-release on the one riser, you unlimbered your primary weapon, stuffed your chute away in the bag, and then unlimbered the LAW. Then, you ran to the AA, ruck on back, a LAW under one arm & rifle under the other arm.
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I just saw an article that said the Marines ordered about 8000 M72 LAWs. I always liked the LAW. =) But, the LAW had just about completely disappeared from the military's inventory.
They aren't strong enough for some modern armor applications, but they were relatively light and easy to carry. And they work well against cars and small trucks and modestly fortified positions. But, probably the best thing about them was a lefty could shoot them just as easily as a righty. Try that with an AT4. =| A lefty can do it, but it's awkward as all get-out.
Sometimes old technology is better. But then most gun folks know that.
Sounds perfect for use against a "technical" or a car full of AK-wielding insurgents.
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Sounds perfect for use against a "technical" or a car full of AK-wielding insurgents.
Have they made any improvments/changes to the warhead? It seems to me that a shaped charge would be kind of overkill on thin-skinned vehicles. Perhaps a general purpose HE/Frag warhead would be more suitable in some applications?
The insurgency does not field much armor. =D
I wonder if there's anything like that new SMAW rocket that "counts" the walls/barriers it goes through before exploding to overpressure the whole vehicle/structure from inside.
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They aren't strong enough for some modern armor applications, but they were relatively light and easy to carry. And they work well against cars and small trucks and modestly fortified positions. But, probably the best thing about them was a lefty could shoot them just as easily as a righty. Try that with an AT4. =| A lefty can do it, but it's awkward as all get-out.
Using a LAW against modern armor is an interesting means of committing suicide. Enacted by either by said armor, or by your coworkers.
What we need is our own copy of the RPG. There is a paratrooper varient of the RPG that unscrews into two pieces. RPG is excellent for breaching walls, disabling modern armor, breaching fortified positions (if used correctly), vaporizing small vehicles, etc. Hell, folks have used them as AA weapons to decent effect in volley firing. The Russians never showed the interest in doing so, but it's entirely possible to make a range of rockets that are specialized. Breacher rounds, frag rounds, armor piercing rounds, etc.
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Interesting, I didn't know we still had LAW's in inventory. Gotta be better than an AT4. Got a old Soviet copy of a LAW shot at me one time; blew up the store-front ~20 feet behind the truck real good. I was actually surprised how much damage it did.
AJ: I was a SMAW gunner, and I believe you're referring to the "Novel Explosive" rocket. It's not a "smart" round as you seem to imply. It's just a thermobaric warhead; you had to shoot it through a window or opening to get the implosion affect. Although they may have changed it since I got out.
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Using a LAW against modern armor is an interesting means of committing suicide. Enacted by either by said armor, or by your coworkers.
What we need is our own copy of the RPG. There is a paratrooper varient of the RPG that unscrews into two pieces. RPG is excellent for breaching walls, disabling modern armor, breaching fortified positions (if used correctly), vaporizing small vehicles, etc. Hell, folks have used them as AA weapons to decent effect in volley firing. The Russians never showed the interest in doing so, but it's entirely possible to make a range of rockets that are specialized. Breacher rounds, frag rounds, armor piercing rounds, etc.
The Germans already make one.
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Interesting, I didn't know we still had LAW's in inventory. Gotta be better than an AT4. Got a old Soviet copy of a LAW shot at me one time; blew up the store-front ~20 feet behind the truck real good. I was actually surprised how much damage it did.
AJ: I was a SMAW gunner, and I believe you're referring to the "Novel Explosive" rocket. It's not a "smart" round as you seem to imply. It's just a thermobaric warhead; you had to shoot it through a window or opening to get the implosion affect. Although they may have changed it since I got out.
I'm pretty sure they have a new variant that counts one impact/piercing of a wall then detonates to over-pressure the structure. It was on that "Futureweapons" show with the bald former SEAL who constantly talks in that overly dramatic hissing whisper all the time.
I think that show would be one of my absolute favorites if it had Mike Rowe from "Dirty Jobs" as the host instead. :laugh:
Also, do we still field the four-shot boxy LAW that Ahhhhnallld made famous in "Commando"?
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Marines have gone back to using the LAW for a couple of years now. Mostly this is for busting up enemy firing positions and mouse-holing during MOUT.
Easier to carry a bunch of them than the SMAW or AT4.
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Here we go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M72_LAW#US_variants
We were issued the M72A6 when I was in (1996-1999):
"M72 variant; rocket w/ low penetration, improved blast effect; uses improved launcher assembly"
I recall that they had been re-arsenalled. The black rubber bits had been replaced and glued in place with clear GE silicone sealant/adhesive.
FTR, I would not want to be the guy re-arsenalling a M72 law.
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How accurate are they?
Is the explodyness more or less than a normal grenade?
So the LAW is given to everyone? There is no designated person - a law-man - in each unit who might carry a bunch of them?
What happens if the fins don't pop out?
What if you extend it then decide you don't need to use it, can it be collapsed back with no risk?
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How accurate are they?
Is the explodyness more or less than a normal grenade?
So the LAW is given to everyone? There is no designated person - a law-man - in each unit who might carry a bunch of them?
What happens if the fins don't pop out?
What if you extend it then decide you don't need to use it, can it be collapsed back with no risk?
Accurate enough to hit a vehicle within their effective range. Stationary vehicles were no problemo.
Not sure
The only folks who didn't get them in my unit were those who carried the heaviest loads: radiomen, M240 gunners, Gustav gunners, mortars, medics, etc.
Hell if I know. Probably don;t fly straight.
Yes.
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The Germans already make one.
The Panzerfaust 3? That's much closer in weight and capability to the AT4/SMAW/RPG-29 than the RPG-7.
I'm pretty sure they have a new variant that counts one impact/piercing of a wall then detonates to over-pressure the structure. It was on that "Futureweapons" show with the bald former SEAL who constantly talks in that overly dramatic hissing whisper all the time.
Probably the Bunkerfaust variant of the Panzerfaust 3. It doesn't "count" walls per say. Rather, it creatively uses a dual warhead setup to make a hole in a wall and drop a grenade inside with unhealthy results for the people occupying that area.
Significantly better than the LAW for that purpose, but it's also about 6 times heavier.
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Also, do we still field the four-shot boxy LAW that Ahhhhnallld made famous in "Commando"?
M202A1 Flame Assault Shoulder Weapon (Flash)
I got to play with the things many years ago, back in the days of "The Old Corps."TM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M202A1_FLASH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M202A1_FLASH)
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/flame/M202.html (http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/flame/M202.html)
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The Panzerfaust 3? That's much closer in weight and capability to the AT4/SMAW/RPG-29 than the RPG-7.
Probably the Bunkerfaust variant of the Panzerfaust 3. It doesn't "count" walls per say. Rather, it creatively uses a dual warhead setup to make a hole in a wall and drop a grenade inside with unhealthy results for the people occupying that area.
Significantly better than the LAW for that purpose, but it's also about 6 times heavier.
Yes, but it's got such a cool name. You yell for that, someone knows the hurt is coming. When German words involving artillery start flying around, something's going to go bang in a big way. They've always been rather good at that. =)
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You don't want to be standing behind them or in a confined space (cover - doh...). Plus they're single shot. I'd figure that you could carry more, and a wider variety of, blooper rounds... IMHO, they oughta bring back the M79... I think the 203 is "convenient," but it's more awkward.
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IMHO, they oughta bring back the M79... I think the 203 is "convenient," but it's more awkward.
Precisely what I thought when I had to carry one of the damn things.
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Yes, but it's got such a cool name. You yell for that, someone knows the hurt is coming. When German words involving artillery start flying around, something's going to go bang in a big way. They've always been rather good at that. =)
I swear to the Gods, if I ever hear an APS member say "Erhalten sie Bunkerfausten für die Panzerfaust"...
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I was never a military man, and with no practical experience at all I preferred the M-79 over the 203 also.
I've always wanted one yet I've never lusted after the 203.
I don't have anything to base that opinion on (other than "internet rules") but it just seemed like it was a better system for delivering small pain packages. Handier to use and aim, lighter to carry than the combo system, and just plain cooler looking.
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We had some in Panama - heck, back then there were still grease guns floating around. The M79 is also just so much easier to aim and fire, and is more intuitive/instinctive against close massed targets with multiple projectile loads... and it hurts when you try to fire it from your shoulder. I wish they'd come up with a SxS or O/U version of it. Probably wouldn't be that hard, altho it would increase the weight a bit.
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You'll know that you're going to hear...
"Erhalten sie Bunkerfausten für die Panzerfaust"...
...if just before, you hear the words...
"Hey, could someone hold my Shiner while I do this?"
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The IDF actually uses the RPG-7 a lot, as I learned during the armorer courses. The likely opponent (Palestinians, Syrians) has no armor that cannot be pierced by them, and they're very useful in delivering pain packages in areas that regular arty can't get to.
Also, according to the books I have read about the Russian Army, they've used the RPG-7 in Chechnya for the same purpose, and (again according to written accounts, I do not pretend to have real experience with the weapon beyond having held one) apparently the soldiers there swear by it.
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I remember running a LAW range years ago (obviously when I was still in the military :lol: ) We got to the range and unpacked all of the LAWs. Then due to a scheduling glitch, no one showed up. There we were with about 100 live LAWs and 200+ rounds for the LAW training launchers.
The ammo guys came by and said they couldn't (or wouldn't) take the live ones back because of some packaging thing.
So, the 6 of us that were running the range had to shoot all of the live ones. It was a hardship, let me tell you, but we soldiered on.... :angel:
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We had some in Panama - heck, back then there were still grease guns floating around. The M79 is also just so much easier to aim and fire, and is more intuitive/instinctive against close massed targets with multiple projectile loads... and it hurts when you try to fire it from your shoulder. I wish they'd come up with a SxS or O/U version of it. Probably wouldn't be that hard, altho it would increase the weight a bit.
I agree....as effective as the LAW is, I think an O/U version of the M79 would be a much better choice for a general load-out. Save the LAWs for special missions where "demolition at a distance" would be appropriate...
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LAW's and RPG's do not do the same tasks as 40mm rounds. The unit that relieved us had some of the revolving grenade launchers. 6 (I think) round of 40mm on tap. Looked cool, but I've seen no AAR's on how well they work in the field.
I've often thought a slight redesign of the RPG would be a lot better than the current light rocket launchers we field.
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God, I love the idea of a o/u M79. Loaded with cannister rounds, you want to talk about the ultimate weapon for urban warfare. WOW! How many buck balls in a 40mm cannister? Give it to one guy, backed with a handgun, and he's the point man for cleaaring buildings.
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God, I love the idea of a o/u M79. Loaded with cannister rounds, you want to talk about the ultimate weapon for urban warfare. WOW! How many buck balls in a 40mm cannister? Give it to one guy, backed with a handgun, and he's the point man for cleaaring buildings.
Two shots of heavy recoiling, low penetrating rounds in a heavy package, and a handgun.... yeah, that's ideal for houseclearing. :rolleyes:
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my new law is a handgun
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpremium1.uploadit.org%2FdocZox%2F%2Fhavoc1.jpg&hash=3cddd3879e95dbc71c93cade99590210add3da00)
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We had some in Panama - heck, back then there were still grease guns floating around. The M79 is also just so much easier to aim and fire, and is more intuitive/instinctive against close massed targets with multiple projectile loads... and it hurts when you try to fire it from your shoulder. I wish they'd come up with a SxS or O/U version of it. Probably wouldn't be that hard, altho it would increase the weight a bit.
I heard that in the event of sudden unpeace, many of the troops mobilized here would be equipped with old M96 and M38 rifles...this was up until the mid-80's :O.
Heck, IIRC, we still used the Nagant revolvers for some odd stuff up until the mid-80's or somesuch. And we still use the Carl Gustaf M/45 submachine gun...amazing those guns aren't worn out yet...
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Load 'em so you can manage 'em, like flechette rounds, and well, then you have flechette rounds... Yeah, they won't go through walls, but when you want everyone who is standing in front of you absotively, posilutely turned into hamburger, there's nothing better.
That's why it's for the point guy.
The 79/203, the LAW and the RPG are not really designed for the same targets. But I would figure that a round of M79 HE going off on the roof of a "shanty" structure is going to be slightly disturbing to those within. Plus, with a little practice, they go through windows real nice. And you can load/fire 3-4 of them in the time it takes to deal with one LAW or RPG.
Heck... Just got to thinking... A "crowsfoot" type of weapon would be interesting for houseclearing... Those were primarily Navy issue in the 1800s, and featured 4 or more barrels spread out from a central priming chamber. Supposed to be rather effective in convincing large numbers of mutinous swabbies that they need to just shut up and be happy with their hardtack... Make one of those in 20 gauge, with #4 buck, designed for a 4' spread at 5 yards...
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That was my thought, Bogie. Anything in front is dead. No questions. Handgun on the hip after the two shots are fired, in case the fight happens faster than the reload. And, you've got a squad of guys with M4's, 12 gauges, etc. for backup. Kind of like the local SWAT team using a 14" 12 gauge pump fo rthe point man, but a little more certain of the knock down power, with some interesting ammo options.
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Have you ever actually done any house clearing? A heavy, awkward, two shot weapon is most emphatically NOT what you want.
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The original LAW warhead could go through 12" of steel plate, 24" of reinforced concrete or 6' of soil with its shaped charge.
The 40mm HEDP round is good for 2" of steel plate.
The LAW has utility as a bunker-buster that the 40mm grenade can not match.
IOW, there is a reason they are still issued alongside the M203.
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The AT4 is much much better for tanks, but we don't fight many tanks these days. I like the law because it's portable and can be used against other hard targets like walls and cars. Keep an AT4 in the vehicle, but LAW can be carried house to house.
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Uh, Balog, if something goes "bump" in the night, I grab a "heavy, awkward" 12 gauge SxS that's cut down to 18.5, and has external hammers... I'm guessing that those two holes in the business end will look large enough that I may not actually have to use it...
I can imagine that instead of 0.75" holes, I'd be working with 40mm holes... Heh, heh, heh...
You know, we could likely make something based on the 37mm loads...
Then we'd have a 37mm vs. 40mm knockdown controversy...
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Uh, Balog, if something goes "bump" in the night, I grab a "heavy, awkward" 12 gauge SxS that's cut down to 18.5, and has external hammers... I'm guessing that those two holes in the business end will look large enough that I may not actually have to use it...
Good guess. I can tell you from personal experience that the business end of a sawn-off double-barreled 12-gauge shotgun looks like twin railroad tunnels when it's being pointed at you from two feet away by someone who's just expressed a willingness to use it. The sight is very persuasive.
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Uh, Balog, if something goes "bump" in the night, I grab a "heavy, awkward" 12 gauge SxS that's cut down to 18.5, and has external hammers... I'm guessing that those two holes in the business end will look large enough that I may not actually have to use it...
I can imagine that instead of 0.75" holes, I'd be working with 40mm holes... Heh, heh, heh...
You know, we could likely make something based on the 37mm loads...
Then we'd have a 37mm vs. 40mm knockdown controversy...
A 12G is a mouse gun compared to a 40mm. A short barreled SxS 12g is not heavy and awkward. A double barrel 40mm would be, especially awkward. A 12G can be swung to anywhere in the room pretty quickly. If that 40mm isn't already pointed at what I want to shoot, likely I'm shot before I can get it on target. Going down a hallway it would be fine. Clearing an actual room, it would suck. Also, they already make a multi shot 40mm, M32 I believe it's called, 6-shot revolver. Also, I read a story on MACVSOG where one of the guys stated he'd had a duckfoot type 12G for bunker clearing. Don't remember how many barrels he said it had.
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Hrmm. I wonder how much #4 buck would fit in a shell made for the M32 :)
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Load 'em so you can manage 'em, like flechette rounds, and well, then you have flechette rounds... Yeah, they won't go through walls, but when you want everyone who is standing in front of you absotively, posilutely turned into hamburger, there's nothing better.
That was tried in the Vietnam War era. The flechette version didn't work well at all. Penetration was low when the flechettes struck point first, nonexistent if they hit sideways. That was replaced by a shell that fired 20 rounds of #4 buck in a sabot at ~ 900 fps from an M79 (much less from the M203). It beat out a version that fired 27 rounds of #4 buck with no sabot as the latter round had too much dispersion at even short ranges.
Rather pathetic when compared ye olde 12 gauge which throws double the amount of shot at 30% more velocity with a far better pattern. Not that I'd really expect different. Pressure on a 40 mm round is 3K PSI compared to the 3" 12 gauge's SAAMI ceiling of 11.5K PSI.
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Uh, Balog, if something goes "bump" in the night, I grab a "heavy, awkward" 12 gauge SxS that's cut down to 18.5, and has external hammers... I'm guessing that those two holes in the business end will look large enough that I may not actually have to use it...
I can imagine that instead of 0.75" holes, I'd be working with 40mm holes... Heh, heh, heh...
Yeah, the goal in raiding a house full of terrorists is to scare 'em real good with your big bad gun. ;/ Maybe we should just carry an Ipod with the sound of a pump racking; that makes everyone pee themselves, right? Cause home defense is exactly the same as fighting a war, right? We should let SWAT teams in on this, they can order up some single shot 4 ga punt guns (cut down, of course) and really revolutionize extreme close quarters combat!
Try strapping on 80 pounds of kit, jumping out of a too small door hatch, running a hundred yard wind sprint, hopping a 10 foot wall, unlimber the bolt cutters so everyone doesn't have to get over the hard way, kick in a door, then clear up stairs, around weird corners, in closets, and under beds all with a two shot weapon with really heavy recoil, that most likely won't penetrate a sturdy wall. Or keep imagining and spouting stupid crap, I suppose that'd be an option too.
Look, you've made your disdain for the infantry apparent in any number of threads. I'm sure we're all just idiots compared to you. But whatever you may think of our intelligence, grunts know how to kill people a hell of a lot better than some pogue who served in peace time. I'd say the difference between "did it a couple times a day, every day for seven months against real people who were really trying to kill him" and "daydreamed about it and thinks it'd be cool" is statistically significant, but then I'm just a poor stupid assaultman so what do I know?
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Aren't guys with semi-auto shotguns fed from magazines already part of the process? Or am I missing something?
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I'm not advocating using the M79 O/U for dynamic-entry room clearing (the 12ga. semi-autos and M-4 subguns are better tools for that.) I advocate the M79 O/U for shoot-HE-through-a-window room clearing, supressive fire on a fixed or slow-moving soft target, and other soft target uses. Leave the 40mm pistols for the Hellboy fans....
Besides, why use 40mm buckshot when you have HE and WP rounds.... =D
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There are always other possibilities for houseclearing. I like the idea the guy on the left has. :lol:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fototime.com%2FA4C89DBFBFA438B%2Fstandard.jpg&hash=137704a0d1add4bd4aea1899960bb0728becc656)
Thing sounds like a freaking chainsaw when firing, but is surprisingly accurate, I'd tried one. (Though I'll guess that's the Chinese version, not the Soviet original, there...) I would imagine it'd mess up all the jihadists in a room without penetrating to the next room where your own guys might be, but it is heavy...
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Have you ever actually done any house clearing? A heavy, awkward, two shot weapon is most emphatically NOT what you want.
I gotta agree with Balog. For clearing a structure that is smaller than a football stadium, you want an M4, a shotgun, or preferably an SMG (with lots of grenades). I wouldn't want to use one for urban combat period unless I had a primary weapon and an M79 tied to my ruck.
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All this talk of M79's and M203's was making me remember... Any body know what that crazy rocket/grenade thing developed for the M-16 was?
It looked like a bowling ball with fins. And it hung under the barrel/muzzle on some kind of angled contraption? IIRC it was a flop, but many of the "history of guns" coffee table type books usually have a pic of it because it looks so odd.
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Aren't guys with semi-auto shotguns fed from magazines already part of the process? Or am I missing something?
Not in the American Military. The only mag fed shotgun they use is the straight-pull xm-26 currently being tested by SF groups. I'm not in the military so I don't know what they use the new Bennelli M1014 for. I would tend the think the only way shotguns are currently being used in indoor CQB is to open doors.
I have some thoughts about the use of the m79/M32 vs the M203. The main uses for both are antipersonnel. The thing is the M79/M32 are on the platoon level and the M203 on the fireteam. I would think it would be better to use 203's in urban combat, as one in 4 men can respond to immediate threats very quickly while still being able to bring his rifle into use quickly. Multiple threats could be taken out at once because each man might see a different one. I would think the M32 or even a China Lake pump would be good for a small squad of Force Recon guys, as it would provide extra firepower.
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Not in the American Military
Yes, I know that they are not in combat use, but there's one in testing, called the AA-12.
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I gotta agree with Balog. For clearing a structure that is smaller than a football stadium, you want an M4, a shotgun, or preferably an SMG (with lots of grenades). I wouldn't want to use one for urban combat period unless I had a primary weapon and an M79 tied to my ruck.
Para-Saw's are nice for clearing houses you've taken fire from. Nothing says "Clear!" like a grenade followed by most of a 200 round drum dumped into a room. =D
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Para-Saw's are nice for clearing houses you've taken fire from. Nothing says "Clear!" like a grenade followed by most of a 200 round drum dumped into a room. =D
Yep (http://www.revdisk.net/photos/MicroSAW.jpg)! I used to take them to the club with me, fit under my jacket perfectly.
A vicious rumor went around that someone removed the bipod and added a M203. Rumors are like that...
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M249 SAW was a weapon I initially despised but came to wuv second only to my beloved M4A1/M203*. Not quite as versatile as the M4A1/M203, but nothing says "suppression" like like a belt-fed for rifle ranged targets.
A M249 with a M203 would be like peas & carrots or chocolate & peanut butter. Now that I know/suspect one exists(ed), I want one.
Belt-fed, heavy-bbl, & bbl-changing goodness and HEDP 40mm grenades? I could be my own little fire team.
* I just had a knack for the M203. I think I am gifted with decent range-estimation skills, which makes all the difference with the M203.
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Belt-fed, heavy-bbl, & bbl-changing goodness and HEDP 40mm grenades? I could be my own little fire team.
It would certainly weigh as much as a fire team.... :O
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It would certainly weigh as much as a fire team.... :O
Meh, the mass would suck up the recoil.
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Yes, I know that they are not in combat use, but there's one in testing, called the AA-12.
I haven't heard anything about the AA-12 even being in testing. I think most everyone has gotten past there infatuation with full auto shotguns.
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I haven't heard anything about the AA-12 even being in testing. I think most everyone has gotten past there infatuation with full auto shotguns.
The Marines had a dozen in testing in 2006. Don't know where they went.
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It would certainly weigh as much as a fire team.... :O
Nope. The Para SAW weighs only a couple pounds more than an M16A2. And an M203 isn't very heavy. So just add the weight of 100 or 200 extra 5.56 rounds plus a couple of lbs, and there you go.
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I guess I'm just from the Jeff Cooper "big payload = not having to worry about what it hit" school of thought.
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I'm pretty sure Jeff Cooper never said anything about big round > shot placement.
And terminal ballistics aside, the mechanics of house clearing are of more importance than the payload, in many cases.
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I guess I'm just from the Jeff Cooper "big payload = not having to worry about what it hit" school of thought.
Kind of sucks when all you hit is empty wall space.
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I guess I'm just from the Jeff Cooper "big payload = not having to worry about what it hit" school of thought.
Sucks when you make a big cloud of fallen wall debris, and a surviving jihadist, concealed in that cloud, pops you with an AK.
I'd rather hit threat targets, personally.
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So, my vision of seeing Elmer Fudd sticking a blunderbuss in the face of Abduhl and having him crap his whateverheheckitiscalled is just wishful thinking?
It's fun anyway.
And picturing Abduhl catching a few ounces mid-mass moving at 400 or so fps strikes me as funny too...
Oh, and the a knob creek or so ago, I saw a cool little toy - it held nine or so .22LR rounds, and would fit in your choice of 40mm or 37mm launchers...
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So, my vision of seeing Elmer Fudd sticking a blunderbuss in the face of Abduhl and having him crap his whateverheheckitiscalled is just wishful thinking?
It's fun anyway.
And picturing Abduhl catching a few ounces mid-mass moving at 400 or so fps strikes me as funny too...
Oh, and the a knob creek or so ago, I saw a cool little toy - it held nine or so .22LR rounds, and would fit in your choice of 40mm or 37mm launchers...
http://www.mr40mm.com/products (http://www.mr40mm.com/products)
Scroll down a little bit.
Fun to play with, I bet, but it's a novelty.
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Sucks when you make a big cloud of fallen wall debris, and a surviving jihadist, concealed in that cloud, pops you with an AK.
I'd rather hit threat targets, personally.
...esp. if you hit them with HE or WP....then the surviving jihadist has other things to worry about than popping you with an AK....
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The 79/203 rounds don't arm for about 10 yards or so... Supposed to keep the attrition rate of the guy carrying it down, after he accidentally blows one into the ground in front of him...
Idea for a round... balls with piano wire stringing 'em together...
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Idea for a round... balls with piano wire stringing 'em together...
Chain shot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain-shot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_shell
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Yeah, I know it's been done before...
And for the ultimate entry weapon... .22LR minigun... Not a huge amount of penetration, but in the five seconds after the door gets boofed, you can dump in 500 rounds (or more...).
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I'm pretty sure Jeff Cooper never said anything about big round > shot placement.
Obviously, Jeff Cooper never had artillery support. =D
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HE WAS A MARINE!! MARINES DON'T NEED ARTY!! RUINS THE MEAT!!
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* I just had a knack for the M203. I think I am gifted with decent range-estimation skills, which makes all the difference with the M203.
Me, too. With the M203 I had Kentucky windage on lock - see it, hit it. Only weapon I was better with was the M60.
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Yeah, I know it's been done before...
And for the ultimate entry weapon... .22LR minigun... Not a huge amount of penetration, but in the five seconds after the door gets boofed, you can dump in 500 rounds (or more...).
With about half of them being misfires and squibs because it's hot and humid out and the thing got oil into the 22 rounds, fouling them...?
22LR is fun for sporting and possibly good for assassination at close range if the rounds are kept in pristine and humidity controlled containment...
...but it sucks as a high reliability round in general, especially in adverse conditions. You can't make 22LR proofed against moisture and oil fouling. They go bad in damp. Quickly.
You want something with a small high-reliability round for something, I would suggest 5.7x28.
And the idea is not to make a spray of little things, but to cause so much immediate CNS and/or circulatory system damage to the bad guy that they are incapable of returning fire or being any sort of threat whatsoever. I would much rather fire a .308 at center of mass than spray little angry bees of .22s at someone and hope something penetrates.
If you really want overkill, hit someone with a deer slug.
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For some reason I really like the phrase "angry little bees of .22's."
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Little bitty rounds mean low recoil... And I'm guessing that if Abduhl gets hit with 20-30 of those "angry little bees," that he won't be thinking about payback, while at the same time, if he gets a through-hit from a FMJ, he could still be somewhat viable as a threat.
I've shot a 180 before, and it's basically a one-barrel bullet hose... Wrap six rotating .22LR barrels in a sleeve, stick a thousand-round box on the back, and you've got a higher cyclic rate... And the .22LR could be somewhat climate-proofed too...
And since it's a mechanical feed/fire/extract system, if it hits a dud, you're still good.
Besides, if someone makes it, there's the chance that dealers samples could be available, and then I would have the chance of owning a minigun that I could afford to feed...
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Bogie, room clearing is much faster, much more tiring, and much more uncertain than it appears your think it is.
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With about half of them being misfires and squibs because it's hot and humid out and the thing got oil into the 22 rounds, fouling them...?
22LR is fun for sporting and possibly good for assassination at close range if the rounds are kept in pristine and humidity controlled containment...
...but it sucks as a high reliability round in general, especially in adverse conditions. You can't make 22LR proofed against moisture and oil fouling. They go bad in damp. Quickly.
The price of .22 rimfire ammo hasn't gone up nearly as fast as the price of, well, everything else over the last 30 years or so. Maybe that's why there seem to be more misfires today than in days of yore; the ammo manufacturers had to find SOME way of keeping the price down, and, clearly, quality suffered.
I did once have the opportunity to fire an American 180, a .22lr machinegun. Nice . . . it would empty a 177 round drum in just under six seconds - and worked flawlessly. =D
But I don't know that I'd want to bet my life on it.
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I'm not advocating using the M79 O/U for dynamic-entry room clearing (the 12ga. semi-autos and M-4 subguns are better tools for that.) I advocate the M79 O/U for shoot-HE-through-a-window room clearing, supressive fire on a fixed or slow-moving soft target, and other soft target uses. Leave the 40mm pistols for the Hellboy fans....
Besides, why use 40mm buckshot when you have HE and WP rounds.... =D
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Me, too. With the M203 I had Kentucky windage on lock - see it, hit it. Only weapon I was better with was the M60.
I never played around much with the 203, but I'm ashamed to say I was expert in grenades, but only so-so with the AlternativeLifestyleR-15. =)
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Nope....they should be carrying O/U versions in case they need a second shot..... =D
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What's the big deal? Someone blows the door off the hinges, then you stick the business end around the corner and start hosing...
Oh. Hearts and minds...
Never mind...
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I never played around much with the 203, but I'm ashamed to say I was expert in grenades, but only so-so with the AlternativeLifestyleR-15. =)
Don't be. Good with hand grenades means you have a good arm and a good eye. During POIQT at Benning I missed Expert by a whisker because my last grenade stopped just outside the bunker entrance. Another half-roll and it would've dropped down the step and gone in. I was very pissed.
I fired Marksman with the M-16, the lowest Q-score I got. Everything else besides the 203 and the 60 I fired Sharpshooter. Thanks to the clerks and jerks the only one that shows on my DD-214 is the rifle. Figures. ;/
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I was expert on grenade... The first thing I figured was that the instructor, who was telling me to throw it like a baseball, was wrong... With the spoon by my thumb it felt more like a football... And I knew how footballs worked... So...
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Do they actually advise to never trust that the fuse will be as long as it's supposed to be?
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I was expert on grenade... The first thing I figured was that the instructor, who was telling me to throw it like a baseball, was wrong... With the spoon by my thumb it felt more like a football... And I knew how footballs worked... So...
But on that history channel show they said you could throw the German WWII grenade cause it has a stick. They even demonstrated throwing it really well and then threw the Allied grenade like a wimp and that proved you couldn't throw it as far. =D
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But on that history channel show they said you could throw the German WWII grenade cause it has a stick. They even demonstrated throwing it really well and then threw the Allied grenade like a wimp and that proved you couldn't throw it as far. =D
Had somebody throw it like Lamar threw the javelin in Revenge Of The Nerds, didn't they? Only it wasn't "...specially designed for Lamar's limp-wristed throwing style."
=D
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They kept repeating "Now, these were made by the lowest bidder, and fuse costs extra money, so some of them may be a little on the "cheap" side."
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Had somebody throw it like Lamar threw the javelin in Revenge Of The Nerds, didn't they? Only it wasn't "...specially designed for Lamar's limp-wristed throwing style."
=D
Well, they did that straight armed over the head throw that I have seen shown as the "proper" way. It seems like a good way to only throw it 10 yards.
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Well, they did that straight armed over the head throw that I have seen shown as the "proper" way. It seems like a good way to only throw it 10 yards.
They were probably the kids who grew up throwing snowballs like that, too, and then got nailed hard by all the other kids winding up and pitching them like fastballs.
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Do they actually advise to never trust that the fuse will be as long as it's supposed to be?
Huh? The fuse doesn't matter until you've already tossed it. So what would it matter if it's a second shorter than advertised? Kinda like knowing your machine gun's exact rate of fire. Interesting, but none too critical to the grunt in the field.
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Some folks feel the need to let them "cook" for a second or two if they are tossing them into a place where they may have someone toss them back out...
Or, conversely, if they're trying for an airburst.
Personally, even with just practice grenades, I didn't like the whole concept.
We had one target which was supposed to be several Ivans... I hit the center one in the chest with the grenade, and the instructor told me that if I'd missed, it would have gone out of the impact area. So I asked him for another chance, called my target, and hit one of the kneeling Ivans. Low.
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Huh? The fuse doesn't matter until you've already tossed it. So what would it matter if it's a second shorter than advertised? Kinda like knowing your machine gun's exact rate of fire. Interesting, but none too critical to the grunt in the field.
Bogie said what I was about to about airburst and preventing someone from playing hot potato with your grenade, so I'll just add that a good demo man can see that the fuses in your grenades burn for a uniform amount of time so you'll have consistency in it and can time your offensive or defensive use of the grenade.
There was a guy in my company in Germany who'd been a Combat Engineer in the Reserves before activating and going into Infantry. He was good with the explosives and pyrotechnics and told us how it was done. He liked to cop as much of the leftover explosives as he could during execises and stash them in his room, then at odd moments he'd drop a grenade- or arty simulator out a window, usually in the middle of the night. Stirred things up from time to time.
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I'll just add that a good demo man can see that the fuses in your grenades...
Is it an odd thing that when I read that, I thought of TF2?
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Personally the most I have ever had the pleasure to use is a Thunderflash. I'm not sure how well I'd fare with a ticking bomb in my hand, I might panic the first time. :O
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This is a pretty version of a weapon designed for SEALS in Vietnam. 4 shot pump action 40mm launcher.
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I wonder if MetalStorm would consider making some kind of LAW alternative. Assuming they haven't already.
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This is a pretty version of a weapon designed for SEALS in Vietnam. 4 shot pump action 40mm launcher.
I've seen the blued version, and it's even prettier. One of the most beautiful weapons I've ever seen. Drool.
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It looks like something Hellboy would keep as an ankle backup. :D
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Bogie want.
Admit it, guys...
Someone points that thing at you, you're gonna be wanting fresh undies...
I'd settle for 2-3 shots - cut that sucker down a little...
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This is a pretty version of a weapon designed for SEALS in Vietnam. 4 shot pump action 40mm launcher.
Ohhh...God yes. Wantwantwantwantwant.
Though I wonder if there are people out there that would rather have a lever action version.
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I wonder why the old Thumper (M78?) wasn't at least a double barrel.
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Reconsider time - stared at it a little more, and it needs that long pump... And if you cut the barrel/magazine down, you'll only lose a little bit of length but you'll lose one whole shot.
Still, the sucker is So Majorly Cool... I'm surprised I haven't seen one at Knob Creek.
I wonder if they make a 37mm version...
Wait... They could cut it down a full-shell length, and more, if they used a handle instead of a foreend...
Hmmm...
Come to think of it, an 8 gauge or 4 gauge shotgun, using reduced loads of course, could also be interesting...
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So how many buckshot pellets does one of those shells hold? :)
Did they make 40mm flachette rounds.?
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So how many buckshot pellets does one of those shells hold? :)
Did they make 40mm flachette rounds.?
They made some #4 buckshot shells that worked fairly well. The flechette shells were a bit of a failure, they frequently did not stabilize and hit the target sideways.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_40_mm_grenades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_40_mm_grenades) for some info on the different rounds
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I suspect that the largest hazard is the "biohazard" from whoever is looking at the business end bleeping themselves....
Think psyops guys... Get a few pictures of our guys with those things, looking like they're ready to go mess up a doorway...
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I'm not sure whether it's a punt gun, or for people who are really getting pissy about another fisherman taking their favorite spot in a lake.
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Reconsider time - stared at it a little more, and it needs that long pump... And if you cut the barrel/magazine down, you'll only lose a little bit of length but you'll lose one whole shot.
Matters not. The history show I watched where I first saw that nifty toy they did a live fire side by side comparison of it and the single shot break action one....literally a 4 to 1 fire superiority advantage.
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I'm not sure whether it's a punt gun, or for people who are really getting pissy about another fisherman taking their favorite spot in a lake.
Looks more like a method of propulsion.... =D
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Lake_NATIC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Lake_NATIC)
But this only weighs a couple pounds more =D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkor_mgl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkor_mgl)
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Hollllllly crap. Found a mislabeled vid of the real thing. =D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHxMm_HkZFk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHxMm_HkZFk)
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And....after the battle is over...you can use your M79 for play.... =D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdfAiXb_jpY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdfAiXb_jpY)
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and now this....
http://www.gizmag.com/metal-storm-3-shot-grenade-launcher-certified/10908/
Though they didn't mention how it reloads, or if you have to carry the 3 grenades in a stack.
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I'm not sure whether it's a punt gun, or for people who are really getting pissy about another fisherman taking their favorite spot in a lake.
During 'Nam the brown-water Navy was considering fielding a waterborne version of the Ontos, but it was dropped after just this one prototype.