Author Topic: The TSA can now be sued.  (Read 4084 times)

just Warren

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The TSA can now be sued.
« on: August 20, 2008, 10:37:07 AM »
If you are on the no fly list you can sue the TSA to get off of it.


http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/08/watch-listed--1.html


Airline passengers on the government's no-fly list can sue the government to get their names removed, according to a federal appeals court ruling Monday that swept aside complicated judicial rules that insulated the government from lawsuits over the sprawling list of suspected terrorists.

The decision (.pdf) marks the first time that an individual has been allowed to use the court -- rather than a form mailed to a Homeland Security office  -- to contest their inclusion in the nation's secret anti-terrorism database. In a recent interview, Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff said such court reviews would destroy the watch lists and lead to another hijacking like 9/11. Those who continually run up against the list describe the experience of trying to figure out how to get off the list as Kafkaesque.

The U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals decided 2-1 to overturn a lower court dismissal of the case on jurisdiction grounds. The lower court found that Congress protected the Transportation Security Administration's aviation safety orders from legal challenges in district court, and that the case had to be filed in the court of appeals first. That essentially blocks any plaintiff from calling witnesses and subpoenaing documents -- leaving them with only the possibility of challenging the constitutionality of the order itself.

That notion struck Chief Judge Alex Kozinski as nonsensical:

    Just how would an appellate court review the agencys decision to put a particular name on the list? There was no hearing before an administrative law judge; there was no notice-and-comment procedure. For all we know, there is no administrative record of any sort for us to review. ... (the process of maintaining the No-Fly List is opaque). So if any court is going to review the governments decision to put Ibrahims name on the no-fly list, it makes sense that it be a court with the ability to take evidence.

Kozinski, joined by James Otero, found instead that the TSA's no-fly and selectee lists were compiled and maintained by another agency -- the Terrorist Screening Center -- that wasn't protected, so the challenge can proceed. Judge Randy Smith dissented, saying Congress clearly wanted to protect the TSA from such suits.

The case arose after a Malaysian woman studying at Stanford attempted to fly from San Francisco to Malaysia in January 2005, but United Airlines identified Rahinah Ibrahim as being on the no-fly list. The airline contacted the police, who called the TSA's intelligence service. There an employee named John Bondanella told police to detain and question Ibrahim, and call the FBI. Ibrahim was handcuffed in front of her 14-year-old daughter and taken to the police station, where she was held for two hours until the FBI called to say let her go.

Ibrahim is suing the feds, United Airlines, San Francisco county and a number of individuals. She is also seeking an injunction to have her name removed from the list.

The appeals court, overturning the lower court, is also allowing Ibrahim to sue Bondanella personally. She alleges that his order to detain her violated her constitutional rights, since the no-fly list is not a list of wanted terrorists, but rather a list of people suspected of being too dangerous to board a plane.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I really like the part about suing the individual TSArds involved.
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Firethorn

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2008, 10:59:04 AM »
I really like the part about suing the individual TSArds involved.

Having thought they should allow and even encourage this for police misdeeds for years, I agree.

Most government agents are so insulated, and know it, that they don't care.  Being hauled into court for their actions makes sense.

ilbob

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 10:59:42 AM »
Quote
I really like the part about suing the individual TSArds involved.
Well at least there is some relief available now to those in this screwed mess.

The sad part is that what will almost assuredly happen is terrorists will somehow use this to their advantage while law abiding citizens won't be able to get off the list no matter what they do.

I wonder what basis there would be for a law suit against someone working for the TSA who followed lawful instructions. There is no claim that the law is not constitutional.
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Leatherneck

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 02:52:25 PM »
Two of my vanpool riders are ladies who work in TSA HQ, nearby the Pentagon. They work in the legal department. Know how many lawyers they support?

147 today.

That's impressive; 147 lawyers in a HQ of a new organization.

TC
TC
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 03:15:50 PM »
sweet

Standing Wolf

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 04:05:26 PM »
Quote
In a recent interview, Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff said such court reviews would destroy the watch lists and lead to another hijacking like 9/11.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 04:07:24 PM »
Quote
In a recent interview, Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff said such court reviews would destroy the watch lists and lead to another hijacking like 9/11.

You know how they often say people who oppose the watchlists and the other violations of civil rights have a September 10th mentality?

Well, it seems Mr. Chertoff has a July 3rd mentality.
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Boomhauer

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 05:22:06 PM »
I want to be able to sue Skeltor. And force him to use his own money, not the citizens gov'ts money...

Now, that would be sweet.
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alan2

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 06:41:58 PM »
If you are on the no fly list you can sue the TSA to get off of it.


http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/08/watch-listed--1.html


Airline passengers on the government's no-fly list can sue the government to get their names removed, according to a federal appeals court ruling Monday that swept aside complicated judicial rules that insulated the government from lawsuits over the sprawling list of suspected terrorists.

The decision (.pdf) marks the first time that an individual has been allowed to use the court -- rather than a form mailed to a Homeland Security office  -- to contest their inclusion in the nation's secret anti-terrorism database. In a recent interview, Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff said such court reviews would destroy the watch lists and lead to another hijacking like 9/11. Those who continually run up against the list describe the experience of trying to figure out how to get off the list as Kafkaesque.

The U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals decided 2-1 to overturn a lower court dismissal of the case on jurisdiction grounds. The lower court found that Congress protected the Transportation Security Administration's aviation safety orders from legal challenges in district court, and that the case had to be filed in the court of appeals first. That essentially blocks any plaintiff from calling witnesses and subpoenaing documents -- leaving them with only the possibility of challenging the constitutionality of the order itself.

That notion struck Chief Judge Alex Kozinski as nonsensical:

    Just how would an appellate court review the agencys decision to put a particular name on the list? There was no hearing before an administrative law judge; there was no notice-and-comment procedure. For all we know, there is no administrative record of any sort for us to review. ... (the process of maintaining the No-Fly List is opaque). So if any court is going to review the governments decision to put Ibrahims name on the no-fly list, it makes sense that it be a court with the ability to take evidence.

Kozinski, joined by James Otero, found instead that the TSA's no-fly and selectee lists were compiled and maintained by another agency -- the Terrorist Screening Center -- that wasn't protected, so the challenge can proceed. Judge Randy Smith dissented, saying Congress clearly wanted to protect the TSA from such suits.

The case arose after a Malaysian woman studying at Stanford attempted to fly from San Francisco to Malaysia in January 2005, but United Airlines identified Rahinah Ibrahim as being on the no-fly list. The airline contacted the police, who called the TSA's intelligence service. There an employee named John Bondanella told police to detain and question Ibrahim, and call the FBI. Ibrahim was handcuffed in front of her 14-year-old daughter and taken to the police station, where she was held for two hours until the FBI called to say let her go.

Ibrahim is suing the feds, United Airlines, San Francisco county and a number of individuals. She is also seeking an injunction to have her name removed from the list.

The appeals court, overturning the lower court, is also allowing Ibrahim to sue Bondanella personally. She alleges that his order to detain her violated her constitutional rights, since the no-fly list is not a list of wanted terrorists, but rather a list of people suspected of being too dangerous to board a plane.





I really like the part about suing the individual TSArds involved.

                                        ----------------------------

Re comment by Chertoff, seemingly as follows, "Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff said such court reviews would destroy the watch lists and lead to another hijacking like 9/11", it was my impression that it was the FACT of unarmed, defenseless air crew that led to the hijackings of 11 Sept., 2001. Of course, there was also some planning by the hijackers, but that is another side of the coin.

Firethorn

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2008, 03:36:48 AM »
Re comment by Chertoff, seemingly as follows, "Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff said such court reviews would destroy the watch lists and lead to another hijacking like 9/11", it was my impression that it was the FACT of unarmed, defenseless air crew that led to the hijackings of 11 Sept., 2001. Of course, there was also some planning by the hijackers, but that is another side of the coin.

To be fair, it was even more to the training, the philosophy that previously pervaded the passangers as well as the crew - cooperate with the demands, the people on the ground will come up with a way to get at least most of you out safely.  Whether that's talking, dealing, or sending in SWAT.

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2008, 03:45:31 AM »
Re comment by Chertoff, seemingly as follows, "Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff said such court reviews would destroy the watch lists and lead to another hijacking like 9/11", it was my impression that it was the FACT of unarmed, defenseless air crew that led to the hijackings of 11 Sept., 2001. Of course, there was also some planning by the hijackers, but that is another side of the coin.

To be fair, it was even more to the training, the philosophy that previously pervaded the passangers as well as the crew - cooperate with the demands, the people on the ground will come up with a way to get at least most of you out safely.  Whether that's talking, dealing, or sending in SWAT.

Its still the prevailing mentality today.  People live a "don't get involved" mindset.  See an old man get hit by a car? Keep walking.  Girl getting raped in the alley?  Keep walking.  I don't know how such sheep could effectively defend an airplane against determined jihadis.
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MechAg94

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2008, 04:26:21 AM »
But today I don't think the pilots would give up the cockpit no matter what they were doing and I doubt at least some of the passengers would stand by.  It doesn't take all of them. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2008, 05:01:48 AM »


Its still the prevailing mentality today.  People live a "don't get involved" mindset.  See an old man get hit by a car? Keep walking.  Girl getting raped in the alley?  Keep walking.  I don't know how such sheep could effectively defend an airplane against determined jihadis.

There has already been a case of an elderly US Marine [Marines remain Marines.] beating the living crap out of a Jihadi with a gun on a plane.
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Manedwolf

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2008, 05:04:23 AM »
There was also a WWII vet who recently killed a bus hijacker in Costa Rica.

With his bare hands.

MechAg94

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2008, 05:04:54 AM »
I do like the little tidbit where she can sue the agent to authorized her to be detained for little or no reason.  
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MicroBalrog

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2008, 05:07:41 AM »
There was also a WWII vet who recently killed a bus hijacker in Costa Rica.

With his bare hands.

I demand a link. This sounds filled with awesome.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Finch

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2008, 07:27:25 AM »
Two of my vanpool riders are ladies who work in TSA HQ, nearby the Pentagon. They work in the legal department. Know how many lawyers they support?

147 today.

That's impressive; 147 lawyers in a HQ of a new organization.

TC

I work for the TSA in Las Vegas and we also have two on site lawyers.
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Firethorn

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2008, 07:29:40 AM »
Its still the prevailing mentality today.  People live a "don't get involved" mindset.  See an old man get hit by a car? Keep walking.  Girl getting raped in the alley?  Keep walking.  I don't know how such sheep could effectively defend an airplane against determined jihadis.

On a plane?  History has shown this to be incorrect - people are dogpiling anybody who acts up on a flight.  Doesn't mean that determined terrorists wouldn't be able to take the plane if they're determined enough, but it does mean that you'll need more of them with more substantial weapons.

Manedwolf

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2008, 07:42:10 AM »
So you can sue? So what?

Lawyers aren't free. You need to pay thousands to get off a list you shouldn't be on.

Yay? Tongue

alan2

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2008, 07:58:39 AM »
Re the antics of TSA, no fly lists, armed pilots, one thing that many might not be aware of is the following.

By GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS airline pilots were armed over a period of many years. This was related to airline mail contracts, 1st class mail was important stuff, and was to be protected. This was changed sometime/starting in the 1970's. It was also sometime in the 1970's that the pilot of a U.S. commercial airline flight shot and killed a hijacker, during the course of an attempted hijacking. Unfortunately, I cannot, at the moment, provide a "link" to these circumstances, should anyone be desirous of one.

As to the present situation, respecting armed air crew ( those FFDO's), the congress via legislation directed TSA to run a program leading to the arming, rearming of airline pilots would have been more correct, however TSA has obstructed this program since it's inception, using every imaginable ruse. While Rome burned, The Congress fiddled, and it continues to so do.

In passing, I will make one more point. The maudlin ramblings of DHS head Chertoff have a more than slightly hollow ring .

MicroBalrog

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Re: The TSA can now be sued.
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2008, 09:59:19 AM »
So you can sue? So what?

Lawyers aren't free. You need to pay thousands to get off a list you shouldn't be on.



Under current law, the government can be made to compensate you for the expenses in civil rights trials.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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