Author Topic: The Tueller Drill  (Read 2641 times)

Perd Hapley

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The Tueller Drill
« on: August 14, 2013, 11:49:32 PM »
I just ran across this. Supposedly Sgt. Tueller's original article on the "21-foot rule."

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm
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vaskidmark

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2013, 11:42:48 AM »
Yep!

It never was a "drill" - just an explanation of why you need to keep perps (and potential perps) at much better than arm's distance - which used to be the standard.

Most folks talk about "The Teuller Drill" without having any idea what it is, or why.  If they have some notion, it is that it must be the reason shooters who cannot draw and shoot in 1.5 seconds are considred "slow" or "sub-standard".  :facepalm:

Just to start both thread drift and a flame war  :angel: - one way to better your time against the close-in BG is to use quarter-hip point shooting.  Saves whatever fraction of a second it takes to extend your arm and get some sort of flash sight picture.

stay safe.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2013, 11:52:09 AM »

Just to start both thread drift and a flame war  :angel: - one way to better your time against the close-in BG is to use quarter-hip point shooting.  Saves whatever fraction of a second it takes to extend your arm and get some sort of flash sight picture.

stay safe.

Took a defensive pistol class as Caswell's here in Mesa a year or so back, and the instructor took the class "downrange" into the target track system.  He started the targets 21 feet away and used the control board to rush the targets at us at more or less running speed.

As we got better and faster and more accurate at this drill, he started encouraging us to point-shoot from the hip or from the chest prior to the push-extension.

I tried from the hip several times, and I could make hits... but I noticed that my rounds were not headed towards the backstop.  They would go through the target and impact against the wall on the side of the range rather than the backstop. 

Shooting from the hip, as the target closes on you, changes "downrange" and "safe backstop" by a large margin.  Can be as much as 20-30 degrees as the target comes in really close.  Even more so when you combine the exercise with "getting off the X" or movement to extend time until contact, as well.
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French G.

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2013, 12:06:42 PM »
When we did silly stuff like that at indoor IDPA we used mobile bullet traps so that the projectile stopped 4 inches after hitting the target. Also good to have a practiced draw so you know where your other hand is before you commence to shooting it.
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Ben

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2013, 12:13:35 PM »
In a defensive pistol class I took, we did hip shots, and I actually did quite well with them in the 5' and less range. Our drills were basically holding in tight to the body for close-in attackers who might otherwise grab your gun. At the short range, I was actually grouping quite well and in COM. Quite surprising for me as I had never done hip shots before, and never expected anything close to the accuracy I got. Just for those unfamiliar, these "hip shots" were not like in the movies. You draw your pistol and keep your arm in tight against your torso for stability, with pretty much a 90 deg bend between upper arm and forearm, and wherever your body is facing essentially becomes your sight. We were taught to hold our off hand to our chest, basically like hand over heart except with a fist.

Our Tueller drills were pretty low tech. We would have a guy behind us that at the "go" command would run to a marker twenty feet away (again, behind the shooter) while the shooter drew and fired at a steel plate. I can't remember exactly how I did, but I recall it was always pretty dang close to when the runner got to his mark. Hence I would be inclined to go with the hip shot. Or better, situational awareness that keeps me away from trouble when possible. The instructor didn't seem too jazzed on Tueller drills - seemed more like he was doing them just to cover the curriculum.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2013, 12:24:18 PM »
When we did silly stuff like that at indoor IDPA we used mobile bullet traps so that the projectile stopped 4 inches after hitting the target. Also good to have a practiced draw so you know where your other hand is before you commence to shooting it.

We were taught with hip shots to keep the 2nd hand held close to the chest, similar to if you were going to bring the pistol to chest from the draw and then punch out.  The wrist was rotated enough so that the slide would not tap against your body or clothing when firing (to prevent failure to eject or feed).  The wrist rotation also helps reduce the tendency for most hip-shooters to hit low.
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Tallpine

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2013, 02:36:40 PM »
We were taught with hip shots to keep the 2nd hand held close to the chest, similar to if you were going to bring the pistol to chest from the draw and then punch out.  The wrist was rotated enough so that the slide would not tap against your body or clothing when firing (to prevent failure to eject or feed).  The wrist rotation also helps reduce the tendency for most hip-shooters to hit low.

So holding the gun sideways really does work?  =D

Quote
Our Tueller drills were pretty low tech. We would have a guy behind us that at the "go" command would run to a marker twenty feet away (again, behind the shooter) while the shooter drew and fired at a steel plate.

How far away was the plate? 
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Ben

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2013, 03:13:53 PM »

How far away was the plate? 

I'm thinking it was around 15-20'. Like I said, he really wasn't into "Tueller drills", else without a mechanical target, it probably would have been a bit more realistic to have the target right in front of our faces (and not use a steel plate).
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Hawkmoon

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2013, 05:53:50 PM »
It never was a "drill" - just an explanation of why you need to keep perps (and potential perps) at much better than arm's distance - which used to be the standard.

Oh, yes, it was indeed a drill. It was a drill devised by then-Sgt. Tueller when he was the training officer for his department. I have read two other articles by him and watched one video of a talk he gave, and it is very clear that it WAS a drill. But it wasn't a tactical drill. The purpose was the transfer of knowledge to the next generation of street cops. His idea going into developing it was that experienced street cops have picked up an ability to sense when there is a genuine danger, and when there isn't. What he wanted to develop was a way to teach the new kids that sense without leaving them on the street for years before they developed it. The rationale behind the drill is as described in this article, but he did use it as a drill, and he had all his street officers go through it -- at least once as the cop, and at least once as the knife-wielding perp.

Quote
Most folks talk about "The Teuller Drill" without having any idea what it is, or why.  If they have some notion, it is that it must be the reason shooters who cannot draw and shoot in 1.5 seconds are considred "slow" or "sub-standard".  :facepalm:

Worse, people "get" out of it that anything within 21-feet is a free-fire zone, and that was NOT what the drill was intended to teach. It was meant only to teach rookie cops how easy it is to get behind the curve, and to show them when it's time to do something to remain ahead of the curve. Such as, if you have a suspect (or a "person of interest") acting hinky, you can't see his hands, and he approaches within the 21-foot danger zone ... SHOOT THE BUM! No, seriously, the response is to do ... something. Anything to shift the dynamic. Put your hand on your duty weapon (or taser) and unsnap the restraint. Maybe draw and hold the weapon at low ready. Or maybe back up a few steps, or step sideways a couple of paces to get the other guy off balance and decoupled from whatever he has in mind. It's not an automatic shoot situation, but a heads up to be alert, and be prepared.

Tueller has been retired for a few years now, but he still speaks at conferences. One of the interesting points he makes is that the 21-foot rule is not valid today. When he devised the drill, it was for HIS uniformed officers based on whatever retention holster they were using back then ... which was rudimentary compared to what cops wear today. Therefore (he says), that 1.5 seconds it took then to draw and get off two shots to center of mass might take 2.0 or 2.5 seconds today, so the 21-foot distance has to be increased to whatever distance the hypothetical average, knife-wielding punk can cover in 2.0 or 2.5 seconds. How far is that? I don't know, and he didn't guess. Probably at least 30 feet, more likely 35 to 40 feet.

And, lastly, he stressed that the rule was never intended to apply to anyone other than uniformed cops carrying duty weapons in duty holsters. Not detectives, certainly not us "civilians." In fact, not even uniformed cops from other departments, unless they used the same guns and holsters as Tueller's department did. Why? Because the 1.5 seconds was based on the average of how long it took HIS uniformed cops to draw and fire two shots. Someone carrying concealed in some other kind of holster might need longer to draw, engage, and fire two shots. More time = more distance. No "21-foot rule."
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2013, 06:11:12 PM »
+1, Hawkmoon.

Doing the drill at the class I took, I was wearing a minimal retention (friction only) kydex paddle made by Blade Tech, with a speed draw cutaway on the front strap.  I was able to get 6 shots off on the approaching target.  Can't remember if I was running an XD9 or my CZ-75 9mm at that class.  I tend to carry the CZ cocked and locked for an SA first shot with safety engaged.  But I think I took the XD for this class.

Shooters with leather OWB holsters with thumbstrap retention buttons and full size service guns were only able to get 1, maybe 2 shots off.  More friction with the leather, no front strap cutaway, gotta hit the safety on the draw stroke, etc.

All the kydex students were faster than the leather students.

Shooters with IWB rigs that had to lift the shirt of out of the way of the draw were lucky to get 1 shot off.

Shooters with itty-bitty guns that didn't fill their hands, and had to re-grip the gun between draw and presentation (most Kel-Tecs, other mouse guns) were also lucky to get 1-2 rounds off.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2013, 09:02:37 PM »
+1, Hawkmoon.

Doing the drill at the class I took, I was wearing a minimal retention (friction only) kydex paddle made by Blade Tech, with a speed draw cutaway on the front strap.  I was able to get 6 shots off on the approaching target.  Can't remember if I was running an XD9 or my CZ-75 9mm at that class.  I tend to carry the CZ cocked and locked for an SA first shot with safety engaged.  But I think I took the XD for this class.

Shooters with leather OWB holsters with thumbstrap retention buttons and full size service guns were only able to get 1, maybe 2 shots off.  More friction with the leather, no front strap cutaway, gotta hit the safety on the draw stroke, etc.

All the kydex students were faster than the leather students.

Shooters with IWB rigs that had to lift the shirt of out of the way of the draw were lucky to get 1 shot off.

Shooters with itty-bitty guns that didn't fill their hands, and had to re-grip the gun between draw and presentation (most Kel-Tecs, other mouse guns) were also lucky to get 1-2 rounds off.

See, your instructor mis-used the drill. He was focused on "21 feet."

The real purpose of the drill is to see what YOUR radius of danger is. If the definition of a safe distance is being able to get off two shots to center of mass before the bad guy sticks his (rubber, hopefully) knife in your chest, the drill should have been repeated for those who couldn't do it successfully at 21 feet. The bad guy should have been moved out to twenty-five feet. If some people still couldn't do it, then move the bad guy out to thirty feet.

Rinse and repeat as necessary.

That way, every student gets to see how far away a potential assailant can be and still be a viable threat. If everyone runs the drill at 21 feet and some fail at 21 feet -- what have those who failed actually learned?
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2013, 09:45:30 PM »
Or, rather, he did demonstrate that fact.  By showing that different equipment and training levels yields quicker first shots or defensive reaction capabilities.

There was no way to objectively measure the individual skill levels of all dozen participants and tailor the distance per shooter in the time allotted for this drill.  It would have taken all day to do that.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2013, 10:50:56 PM »
Or, rather, he did demonstrate that fact.  By showing that different equipment and training levels yields quicker first shots or defensive reaction capabilities.

There was no way to objectively measure the individual skill levels of all dozen participants and tailor the distance per shooter in the time allotted for this drill.  It would have taken all day to do that.


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Hawkmoon

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2013, 12:42:28 AM »
Or, rather, he did demonstrate that fact.  By showing that different equipment and training levels yields quicker first shots or defensive reaction capabilities.

There was no way to objectively measure the individual skill levels of all dozen participants and tailor the distance per shooter in the time allotted for this drill.  It would have taken all day to do that.

Obviously, I wasn't there and you were. Without having heard his actual presentation, I am left with the concern that those who were NOT able to get off the prescribed two shots before the bad guy traversed the magic 21-foot distance will be left with the impression that all they need to do is to practice their drawing and firing to become faster. Not that I'm against anyone becoming more proficient, but that's really the wrong message. The message should be "Okay, now I know that someone even farther away than 21 feet is a viable threat. I'd better expand my circle of situational awareness to encompass a larger radius."

The problem being that they don't have much sense of how far to expand their radius of situational awareness.
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280plus

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2013, 08:28:33 AM »
Agree 100% with Hawkmoon. What I learned is even if I DO get the shots off in 2 seconds, (I have) I know at 21 feet the attacker will be right up in my face AND his forward momentum would most likely carry him through me anyways. This is good info to have. There are several strategies. Step sideways and let his momentum carry him past you, or another I've seen is as you draw to your hip you take big steps backwards (and to the side?) and extend the gun forwards as you move backwards so effectively the gun stays in place momentarily as your arms extend. Then, my little edge is the pocket rocket. When I feel uncomfortable I nonchalantly put my hand in my pocket and I'm now almost a second ahead on Sgt Tueller because I've already done the reaching and grabbing
without looking overly threatening. From there I can bring my gun to retention in one second without even trying. Nice relaxed draw.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2013, 12:02:44 PM »
When I feel uncomfortable I nonchalantly put my hand in my pocket and I'm now almost a second ahead on Sgt Tueller because I've already done the reaching and grabbing without looking overly threatening. From there I can bring my gun to retention in one second without even trying. Nice relaxed draw.

And THAT is what Tueller was trying to teach his rookies ... when to do something to stay ahead of the curve (without declaring the K-Mart parking lot a free fire zone).
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MechAg94

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Re: The Tueller Drill
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2013, 04:52:27 PM »
Yep!

It never was a "drill" - just an explanation of why you need to keep perps (and potential perps) at much better than arm's distance - which used to be the standard.

Most folks talk about "The Teuller Drill" without having any idea what it is, or why.  If they have some notion, it is that it must be the reason shooters who cannot draw and shoot in 1.5 seconds are considred "slow" or "sub-standard".  :facepalm:

Just to start both thread drift and a flame war  :angel: - one way to better your time against the close-in BG is to use quarter-hip point shooting.  Saves whatever fraction of a second it takes to extend your arm and get some sort of flash sight picture.

stay safe.
I would add to that explanation that the purpose was also to demonstrate to the anti-self defense and perhaps to courts that just because someone is at a short distance away, they can still be a relevant threat. 
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