Death Penalty opinions

[alex_trebek]

I was curious about different views on the US death penalty (both federal and state). Foreign opinions on the subject in general are, of course, welcome.

I am personally on the fence on this issue.  I don't like granting the state the authority to take human lives. I do feel no sympathy for rapists/murderers. However, I am of the opinion that it is better to let 100 murderers live than claim the life of a single innocent.

There are very limited protocols for dealing with innocent inmates before and after execution, beyond a non-heartfelt apology. I have a big problem with this, as even someone who is cleared before execution is essentially robbed of their life because they spent 20 years in death row.

I know that there is a lot of appeals processes in place to prevent innocent people from being executed, but it has happened before so I wonder about their overall effectiveness.

[BridgeRunner]

Nope.  People deserve to die, but Americans deserve better than to be killers.  If we can afford to imprison stoners and people who write bad checks, we we afford to permanently imprison murderers, even the really heinous ones.

My opinion on this is not popular around here, but I haven't found anything convincing enough to counter the general principle. 

An important ancillary issue is the difficulty in knowing when someone is actually guilty.  Innocent people have been executed, and as long as there is a death penalty, it is likely that innocent people will continue to be executed from time to time.  I'm not simple enough to insist that on a zero tolerance policy for errors; this issue is at best related to my philosophical opposition to it.

[BridgeRunner]

I know that there is a lot of appeals processes in place to prevent innocent people from being executed, but it has happened before so I wonder about their overall effectiveness.

A prof of mine handled the final appeal of one convicted murderer.  He was convicted of stabbing his daughter to death and hiding her body under a bed for a day before 'fessing up. 
His conviction and all the appeals and all the evidentiary issues argued at various points all fell back on his confession.  Anytime someone couldn't think of an explanation, they simply referred back to the confession.

The guy was retarded.  The confession didn't make sense.  It basically required that EMTs and ER docs not be able to tell the difference between someone who is mostly-but-maybe-not-quite dead of cardiac arrest from multiple stab wounds and someone who has been dead for over 24 hours and stuffed under a bed in July in a closed, un-air-conditioned apartment.  And yet, he was convicted.

[alex_trebek]

BW, I apologize for forgetting about your chosen career path. Thank you for your insights, I appreciate them.

Generally I am a fairly opinionated person, I draw conclusions based on the evidence and proceed as my conscious decides.

The death penalty is one of the few things I have bounced back and forth on, sometimes supporting it other times not.

If I had to make a choice today, I would choose against it.

[Regolith]

I have no problem with it in cases where it's 100% absolutely positive that the guy did it.  Such as this case.

Unless the person was caught on camera doing it, or there were a bajillion witnesses, or pulled something like the guy in the link did, then I have a problem with it.  Confessions can be coerced; they're not always a good indicator unless the guy fails to fight it at all, even during the trial.  

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

yea i'd have dropped the hammer on him while eating a samich.

but we REALLY  need to tighten up on who and how. we've likely screwed up a few times and come way too close a bunch more

[MillCreek]

Several months ago, we discussed the cost of an average execution, after a study was published and reported on in the New York Times.  In some states with a low number of executions, it was upwards of $ 10 million in costs to execute a single inmate.  In other states, who doubtless enjoy efficiencies of scale, it was several hundreds of thousands to the low millions.  In today's economy, you have to wonder if American society can afford to execute people, and what could be done with the money instead. 

Based on my admittedly sparse research, I am gravely concerned over the execution of an innocent person, which has likely already happened; the arbitrary and capricious manner in which the death penalty is sought and imposed; lack of access to competent counsel for the accused in some cases, and the lack of any proven deterrence effect to others.

[drewtam]

I don't understand why the money spent to prove guilt far enough for execution is higher than lifetime imprisonment (by lifetime I mean until death, not 20yrs + parole).
If someone is locked up until they die, they should be afforded all the same appeals and scrutiny an execution does.

In general, I have no moral reservations about the execution. But I become more convinced that prosecutors/DA are out of control and that there may be a lot of innocent people locked up. Execution needs to be 100% with irrefutable evidence correct every time... and so does forever imprisonment.

[alex_trebek]

Several months ago, we discussed the cost of an average execution, after a study was published and reported on in the New York Times.  In some states with a low number of executions, it was upwards of $ 10 million in costs to execute a single inmate.  In other states, who doubtless enjoy efficiencies of scale, it was several hundreds of thousands to the low millions.  In today's economy, you have to wonder if American society can afford to execute people, and what could be done with the money instead. 

Based on my admittedly sparse research, I am gravely concerned over the execution of an innocent person, which has likely already happened; the arbitrary and capricious manner in which the death penalty is sought and imposed; lack of access to competent counsel for the accused in some cases, and the lack of any proven deterrence effect to others.

I identify with the last paragraph. I think the penalty choice should be taken away from potentially over-zealous prosecuters trying to make a name for themselves.  Of course this could simply be the result of over-exposure to John Grisham's work.

[taurusowner]

Despite all that, when I know that there are people who have raped and murdered children, or serial killers who torture and eat their victims in prison, I ask myself why they are still allowed to be on this planet.  And I can't come up with an answer.

[French G.]

Based on the economics, possibility of killing innocents and the general low nature that is less than the standards we have for our country I say no.

However, being a father has made me a little more barbaric, I find myself cheering inside when some of these people get the death penalty. Like the little sick man who buried that girl alive in Florida after raping her and his finishing touch is to let her have her favorite stuffed animal to hold? Oh, how many nights have I not been able to get that though out of my head while tucking in my little girl and her security toy. Death is too good for some of these people. Therefore, any state punishment is inadequate. If it's my family member something happens to, I'll probably make the news.

I do find myself cheering for the dumb-ass here in Virginia that dusted off the electric chair last night too. Nothing like  getting convicted of murder, but beating the death penalty only to write a taunting letter to the DA with lots of new evidence in it to support a death sentence. He failed double jeopardy, but got to final jeopardy anyway. 

http://www.wtkr.com/news/wtkr-powell-execution-tonight,0,4141736.story

[GigaBuist]

In general, I have no moral reservations about the execution. But I become more convinced that prosecutors/DA are out of control and that there may be a lot of innocent people locked up. Execution needs to be 100% with irrefutable evidence correct every time... and so does forever imprisonment.

That pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter.

I do think there's a way to make it more accurate though.  If the executed is later found innocent then the prosecutor goes up for a murder trial.  Better be darned sure you got the right guy before you sign off on going for the death penalty there, bub.

[RoadKingLarry]

There are cases where execution is IMHO the only correct punishment, the Fort Hood Shooter is one such case, there are plenty of others.
I am also concerned with over zealous prosecutors. The only thing rare about Nifong is that that his political targets had enough money to beat him.

[BridgeRunner]

Fort Hood dude is different.  My opposition to the death penalty is limited to the civilian world.  Courts martial need to be able to use the death penalty. 

[taurusowner]

Fort Hood dude is different.  My opposition to the death penalty is limited to the civilian world.  Courts martial need to be able to use the death penalty. 

So is the military somehow always able to get the right person but civilian law enforcement/prosecution is not?  Does JAG have some clairvoyance the DA doesn't?

[RoadKingLarry]

Fort Hood dude is different.  My opposition to the death penalty is limited to the civilian world.  Courts martial need to be able to use the death penalty. 

My point about Hassan is not that he was military but that there is no doubt that he is guilty.

[Perd Hapley]

Failure to execute murderers is a lack of justice.  Better one innocent be killed, than a million murderers remain alive. 

[BridgeRunner]

So is the military somehow always able to get the right person but civilian law enforcement/prosecution is not?  Does JAG have some clairvoyance the DA doesn't?

Nope, accuracy is not my primary objection to the death penalty.  As I stated pretty clearly.

[MicroBalrog]

Failure to execute murderers is a lack of justice.  Better one innocent be killed, than a million murderers remain alive. 

So failing to inflict precisely the kind of punishment you favor is injustice?

[Fjolnirsson]

We need to tighten the requirements for the death penalty. Lots of witnesses, caught on camera, a dying utterance by the victim,"Bubba killed me", etc. However, when we do use it, we need to fast track the guilty. Push their cases to the front of the line. I would like to see a death sentence carried out within 6 months of verdict. Let them file all the appeals they want, and put every one of them on an accelerated schedule. Pull witnesses out of bed and keep them in court until it's done if we have to. There is no excuse for a convicted murderer to sit for years on Death Row. It's unfair to the tax payers, and I believe it constitutes cruel and unusual punishment, for someone to sit there that long, knowing they're a dead man. But then, I believe life is an unfair sentence, too. If someone is so evil they can never be trusted outside again, we should execute them.

But then, I've been told I'm heartless. I also believe if someone can't be trusted with a firearm, they should be locked away until they can be, or executed.

[S. Williamson]

I, for one, am in favor of maintaining the current frequency of capital punishment.

I am also in favor of reducing jail sentences while reinstating alternative forms of punishment.  Lashings, stocks, and so forth.

Cheaper to implement, possibly greater effectiveness, possibly marketable.

In order for my ideas to work out the way I'd want, though, the justice system would have to be quick, perfectly accurate, and free from corruption.    In other words...

"If wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak." -The Hero of Canton

[lupinus]

I'm fine with it, in fact I would argue we don't use it enough. Rapists, child molesters, those who are pathologically violent, and basically anyone that would be subject to a life behind bars. If they are going to be housed for the rest of their life might as well make that life a bit shorter and save some cash.

I do, however, agree with a lot here that there needs to be 100% absolute proof. Caught in the act, caught on camera, lots of reliable witnesses, DNA that has no possibility of being circumstantial, etc. If the evidence lines up that the person is absolutely guilty of the crime, execute him/her. For the sake of efficiency limit those with such evidence to one appeal then put a .22 in the back of their head no later then one year after the conviction to be delayed only if their one appeal is still in process. If there is not such evidence then no death penalty and they can do life on the off chance some evidence comes up in their favor.

[azmjs]

I think that there ought to be something where if a single innocent person is found to be executed anywhere, that all death sentences in the country are commuted to life and a 5 year moratorium imposed on the death penalty.

I think that the same should apply whenever anyone sentenced to death but not executed is exonerated, but only within the state that sentenced him.

I don't oppose the death penalty in principle for murderers, but I think it should be done in as humane a way as possible, with a large barbiturate overdose, perhaps combined with an opiate overdose.

[taurusowner]

I think that there ought to be something where if a single innocent person is found to be executed anywhere, that all death sentences in the country are commuted to life and a 5 year moratorium imposed on the death penalty.

I'm sorry, but that's crazy.  Every moment people like Malik Hasan, Charles Manson, or Ted Kaczynski are allowed to live is a slap in the face to justice and to civilized society.  They should be shot.  Today.  This morning.  No pomp and circumstance.  Just open the cell doors, put a round in the skull, and dispose of the carcass with the day's garbage.

Letting people like that live is not a tribute to our supposed civility.  It's a testament to our stupidity.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

a slap in the face to justice and to civilized society.


not nearly as big a slap as when we kill the wrong guy  and then cover it up