New Springfield Double Stack 9MM 1911

[Ben]

I started a thread kinda on this subject a while back. It looks like maybe more people than Wilson Combat are starting to come out with double stack 9MM 1911s. Though this Springfield isn't all that much cheaper than the Wilson Combat pistols. If it was ~$500 cheaper, I'd consider it. It's exactly a size that I like for carry.

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/handguns/springfield-armory-1911-ds-prodigy-aos-9mm-luger-425in-black-cerakote-pistol-201-rounds/p/1772128

[K Frame]

You know, I can't think of anything I would want less than a double-stack 1911 in 9mm...

[Lennyjoe]

You know, I can't think of anything I would want less than a double-stack 1911 in 9mm...

Or a 9MM in a 1911 platform for me….

[Devonai]

Looks like it fell off the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.  And at that price, it will still tell you it's your fault for being brought up in a world with regular 1911s.

[HankB]

You know, I can't think of anything I would want less than a double-stack 1911 in 9mm...

How about a double stack 1911 chambered in 8mm Nambu? Or an H&H double rifle in 6.5 Arisaka?  (I guess I'm thinking too much about Japan for some reason.)

[K Frame]

"Or an H&H double rifle in 6.5 Arisaka?"

I wouldn't want a double rifle in 6.5 Arisaka, but for many years I've said that I would LOVE to rechamber a Remington 700 to 6.5 Arisaka and use it as a test bed to put that cartridge through its paces.

The 6.5 Arisaka is an incredibly efficient and balanced cartridge. I've often thought it would make a perfect lower 48 gun for just about all kinds of hunting, especially for someone who doesn't tolerate recoil.

[Devonai]

I've fired a rifle in .25-06, a bolt-action Savage if I recall correctly.  How do you think the 6.5 Arisaka stacks up to that?

[Ron]

It would be fun to have a single stack 9mm 1911 only because I only shoot one platform. I didn't look but I'm assuming the grip is a little thicker, if it is I'll pass.

[MechAg94]

I saw Sootch's review earlier.  Looks interesting, but it is on the big side and pretty heavy.  Looks to me like it is targeted at competition.  Not really up my alley. 

I was eyeing some of the Wilsom Combat models recently.  They at least look like viable concealed carry options.

[K Frame]

I've fired a rifle in .25-06, a bolt-action Savage if I recall correctly.  How do you think the 6.5 Arisaka stacks up to that?

The .25-06 is significantly more powerful. That's what you get when you have a case that's 13mm (nearly half an inch) longer and is thus able to hold a lot more powder.

If you want to compare the 6.5 Arisaka to a quarter bore, the best comparison would be to the .257 Roberts.  The Roberts is a bit more powerful, but they're in the same ball park.

The problem with the 6.5 Arisaka is that no one has ever done the kind of development work with it that would determine just how good a cartridge it could be, especially with modern powders. The Arisaka - both the rifle and the cartridge - were really considered throw aways in the years after WW II.

The action never got the kind of attention that the K98 Mauser action did, and the cartridge also lagged in large part because post WW II the US sporting market was still firmly wedded to the .30 caliber cartridges.

[Perd Hapley]

Aren't 9mm "2011s" pretty common these days?

[Hawkmoon]

COOL! A polymer, double-stack STI wannabe with a square trigger guard that won't fit any available 1911 holsters.

Just what I didn't want or need. I'll stick with my Para-Ordnance double-stack.

[HankB]

"Or an H&H double rifle in 6.5 Arisaka?"

I wouldn't want a double rifle in 6.5 Arisaka, but for many years I've said that I would LOVE to rechamber a Remington 700 to 6.5 Arisaka and use it as a test bed to put that cartridge through its paces.

The 6.5 Arisaka is an incredibly efficient and balanced cartridge. I've often thought it would make a perfect lower 48 gun for just about all kinds of hunting, especially for someone who doesn't tolerate recoil.

Actually, if someone had the right chamber reamers, I wouldn't mind rechambering my Contender's 6.5 Ingram barrel to 6.5 Arisaka. It might make for some interesting load development in a round that would beat the .223 based wildcat and still keep pressures modest. That somewhat tapered case would make extraction easy, I would think. I actually considered it when IHMSA was popular and growing - I used the aforementioned wildcat to shoot metal silhouettes - but then the organization's managers went off the rails and virtually killed the sport.

As for rifles, the Jap Type 38 rifles made pre-war and even early in the war were quite good and exceptionally strong - P.O. Ackley had a hard time blowing them up. Apparently the Japs used not only used good steel but also had a very sophisticated differential heat treating process.

[K Frame]

"As for rifles, the Jap Type 38 rifles made pre-war and even early in the war were quite good and exceptionally strong - P.O. Ackley had a hard time blowing them up. Apparently the Japs used not only used good steel but also had a very sophisticated differential heat treating process."

Exactly. The one I have in my gun safe is probably from the 1920s or 1930s and was made to the highest levels of production specifications.

The steel being so durable is one of the problems... it's a bitch to polish to reblue because it's so hard.

Then you have that funky safety, the straight bolt handle, and the cock on closing. By the time the Arisaka hit US shores in big numbers it was an anachronism.

Hardly anyone wanted to use an Arisaka action as the basis for a sporter, especially with huge numbers of Mausers out there.

Some sporters were bodged together, and some were even rechamberd for a nifty little wildcat that used a 6.5mm bullet in a .257 Roberts case.

But all in all, it might well have been America's last choice for a sporter conversion.

[HankB]

"As for rifles, the Jap Type 38 rifles made pre-war and even early in the war were quite good and exceptionally strong - P.O. Ackley had a hard time blowing them up. Apparently the Japs used not only used good steel but also had a very sophisticated differential heat treating process."

Exactly. The one I have in my gun safe is probably from the 1920s or 1930s and was made to the highest levels of production specifications.

The steel being so durable is one of the problems... it's a bitch to polish to reblue because it's so hard.

Then you have that funky safety, the straight bolt handle, and the cock on closing. By the time the Arisaka hit US shores in big numbers it was an anachronism.

Hardly anyone wanted to use an Arisaka action as the basis for a sporter, especially with huge numbers of Mausers out there.

Some sporters were bodged together, and some were even rechamberd for a nifty little wildcat that used a 6.5mm bullet in a .257 Roberts case.

But all in all, it might well have been America's last choice for a sporter conversion.

I've got a Type 38 made in 1939 (I think.) The mum has been partially defaced, but the rifle still has the dust cover, a long sword bayonet, and the spring loaded green plastic muzzle cover. I also have one clip of original ammo. I've fired it with handloads in Norma brass and it works just fine.

The post-war generation (which includes me) has also largely forgotten the problems with refinishing the original Jap stocks to make a "sporter." It turns out the Japs didn't always use plain linseed or tung oil to preserve the wood, they also used an extract of the sumac plant called "urushi" which was toxic and has strong vesicant properties. I remember my Dad told me after the war he knew some guys who did their own gunsmithing and got terrible skin infections after sanding the stocks - one ended up in the hospital. (No idea if they were working on Type 38s or Type 99s - the latter allegedly used urushi more than the former.) This "poison wood" also helped the Jap rifles to fall out of favor with the post-war "sporterizing" craze . . . along with the cheap Mauser 98s that were available.

[MikeB]

Gaming guns. IDPA now allows 15 rounds in SSP. 2011's are popular in USPSA/Multigun as well.

I love a good 2011 in theory, at least in my opinion there is almost no semi-auto trigger that beats a good 1911 trigger; however the grip width on a 2011 not so much.

[Ben]

I love a good 2011 in theory, at least in my opinion there is almost no semi-auto trigger that beats a good 1911 trigger; however the grip width on a 2011 not so much.

I've never handled one. Is the grip width that much fatter than say a Walther PDP or an FNX45? My FNX45 (15+1 of .45acp) is certainly large, but not overly large for my hand. In fact it feels quite comfortable. Though so does the skinny grip on my 1911s. 

[Hawkmoon]

I've never handled one. Is the grip width that much fatter than say a Walther PDP or an FNX45? My FNX45 (15+1 of .45acp) is certainly large, but not overly large for my hand. In fact it feels quite comfortable. Though so does the skinny grip on my 1911s. 

I can't speak for the polymer "2011s," but I own a Para P14.45 and a P13.45. The thickness of the grip is essentially identical to that of a Colt 1911 with factory wood grips. The difference is that a 1911 grip frame is basically an oval in profile, whereas the Para is shaped (especially at the front) more like a 2x4 with rounded corners. So the thickness is about the same but the circumference is greater. If you want, I can dig 'em out and give you exact measurements, but I don't have those numbers readily at hand.

My hands are not particularly large for a male -- I can't palm a basketball, for example -- but I have no trouble holding and shooting Para-Ordnance double stacks. A good friend and shooting buddy, whose hands are about the same size as mine, finds the double stack paras to be too big for him to shoot. It seems to be a very personal perception.

However, I'm pretty certain the polymer "2011s" are even bigger than the double-stack Paras, which are all metal.

[lee n. field]

I started a thread kinda on this subject a while back. It looks like maybe more people than Wilson Combat are starting to come out with double stack 9MM 1911s. Though this Springfield isn't all that much cheaper than the Wilson Combat pistols. If it was ~$500 cheaper, I'd consider it. It's exactly a size that I like for carry.

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting-gear-gun-supplies/handguns/springfield-armory-1911-ds-prodigy-aos-9mm-luger-425in-black-cerakote-pistol-201-rounds/p/1772128

I assume it's a gun gamer thing. 

[Hawkmoon]

The new Springfield looks suspiciously like the SPS Pantera:

http://topgun-firearms.com/product/sps-eagle-imports-pantera-semi-auto-hangun-40sw-16rd-bc/

https://www.impactguns.com/semi-auto-handguns/sps-pantera-9mm-5-barrel-hard-chrome-black-18rd-728028322378-spp9c

[K Frame]

"It turns out the Japs didn't always use plain linseed or tung oil to preserve the wood, they also used an extract of the sumac plant called "urushi" which was toxic and has strong vesicant properties."

I'd forgotten about the issues with the stock finish on Japanese guns.

I'm surprised that no one ever tried to claim that it was a Jap plot to keep killing Americans after the war!

[WLJ]

Tim at MAC calls his a $1,500 fixer upper   

Just started watching the video but so far it's FTE, FTF, FTF, FTF.......

Springfield Armory 1911 DS Prodigy - The $1500 Fixer Upper Pistol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fc2npce5tE

Edit: Further in and lots of poorly fitted MIM parts. He's not knocking the fact the parts are MIM, if they're made right they're fine, but the poor fitment.

[MechAg94]

Listened to that last night.  Said they didn't do any parts fitting which is necessary with the 1911 platform. 

I am not in the market for one, but interesting to watch.  He did suggest anyone wanting one should look at all the reviews they can and don't just go off his review.

How much are Stacatto frames and slides?  I know you used to be able to build one.

[WLJ]

Far too many reviewers get hand pick guns directly from the manufacturer. MAC appears to review off the shelf guns. I don't always agree with his opinions and he can get nitpickly over trivial things from time to time but at least he will point out negatives unlike some who seem to never have anything bad to say about any gun *cough* Sootch00 *cough*.

That said I would expect a $1,500 gun especially one based on a 100+ year old design to work perfectly out of the box .

[Hawkmoon]

Looks like it fell off the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.  And at that price, it will still tell you it's your fault for being brought up in a world with regular 1911s.

I agree -- that is one ugly pistol.