Author Topic: is national reciprocity just a dream?  (Read 1426 times)

gunsmith

  • I forgot to get vaccinated!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,181
  • I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
is national reciprocity just a dream?
« on: December 06, 2018, 11:53:04 PM »
https://dailycaller.com/2018/12/01/ccw-weekend-so-long-national-reciprocity-and-thanks-for-all-the-fish/

really feeling let down by the R's - this was our best chance in a long time to get national reciprocity.

i didn't notice any progress on gun rights - am i wrong?
The R's here in NV seem like they're all D operatives.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

zxcvbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,246
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2018, 12:15:37 AM »
https://dailycaller.com/2018/12/01/ccw-weekend-so-long-national-reciprocity-and-thanks-for-all-the-fish/

really feeling let down by the R's - this was our best chance in a long time to get national reciprocity.

i didn't notice any progress on gun rights - am i wrong?
The R's here in NV seem like they're all D operatives.


Didn't read the article, but R's hate gun owners almost as much as D's do.  They just pander to us but never do anything meaningful.  It all comes down the the phrase "consent of the governed" that all statists hate so much.  An armed populace can withdraw that consent -- that's what the 2A is all about, and why it immediately follow the part of the 1A about petitioning the Government for a redress of grievances.  Notice that clause in 1A doesn't use the word "peaceably" like the one before it.  Read 1A and 2A together as one paragraph instead of unrelated items in a list and it makes a lot of sense.
"It's good, though..."

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,290
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2018, 03:05:27 AM »
That ship has sailed.

You can thank Paul Ryan.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

griz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,050
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2018, 07:33:33 AM »
We'll get reciprocity after the wall is finished.
Sent from a stone age computer via an ordinary keyboard.

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2018, 08:24:24 AM »
Those who rule over us have a different agenda.

Is there any other area other than second amendment issues where we haven’t lost freedom over the last couple decades?

Is there any other aspect of society/culture that has been “conserved” other than the right to bear arms?





For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,975
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2018, 11:45:21 AM »
I promise you, gunsmith, the last thing you want is "national" "reciprocity."

The only reciprocity you're going to get out of it is Dick Durbin and Chuck Schumer and Dianne Feinstein and their ilk having influence over firearms policy in Nevada, Utah, and Arizona.  It'll be nothing more than a way for California and New York to continue to *expletive deleted*it on fly-over country. 

Think about ALL THE WAYS it can go wrong.  Want to see 10rd mags become a de facto market induced standard?  They won't do an AWB again at the national level... they'll use lowest common denominator bullshit via national reciprocity or "symmetry" of law... national reciprocity will only apply to people carrying firearms on a list eerily similar to the CA DOJ "approved" firearms list. 

And once the Feds can "approve" something, they can take away that "approval" since they now have legislative history on the issue.

No.  Fugging.  Way.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2018, 12:09:18 PM »
I agree ^ decentralization  of power.

Federalism - https://infogalactic.com/info/Federalism

Subsidiarity - https://infogalactic.com/info/subsidiarity
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

gunsmith

  • I forgot to get vaccinated!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,181
  • I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2018, 12:52:46 AM »
i get the opposition you guys have, why can't it be treated like a drivers license?
national reciprocity doesn't mean federal reciprocity.
in CA my license allows me to split lanes riding a bike/illegal in other states but all states recognize my DL
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,975
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2018, 12:52:34 PM »
i get the opposition you guys have, why can't it be treated like a drivers license?
national reciprocity doesn't mean federal reciprocity.
in CA my license allows me to split lanes riding a bike/illegal in other states but all states recognize my DL

Driver's licenses aren't (or at least weren't) handled federally, as far as reciprocity works.  It's an interstate compact.  At least up until authoritarian patriot act garbage forced federalized standards on the States, or else a particular State's DL isn't usable for ID for airline boarding.

That's a classic example of what happens when the feds get involved.  They ruin it.  There was no indication that Real ID would have made any impact on September 2001 events had it been implemented earlier.  But under security theater that went into effect after the lemmings all panicked post-9/11, the Feds put their noses into State-level ID schemes.

With a National CCW or federal coercion involved (whether it's flyover-biased coercion of CA and NY, or CA/NY coercion of flyover territory) all that happens is the feds get more powerful.  And the ineffectiveness of FOPA-86 in NY's La Guardia airport shows you exactly how effective fed coercion of CA/NY is, when we try to coerce in "our" direction.

https://iapp.org/news/a/why-some-states-wont-comply-with-real-id-requirements/

With the electronic records keeping requirements of Real ID, I guarantee you gun owners will end up getting hacked, attacked, threatened, stalked, politically targeted and all manner of other drawbacks from a federally centralized accessible database of concealed license holders.  CCW holders are the most vocal, most politically active, most passionate and most economically active segment of any other way to slice up the general gun owning population.  With the ATF/NICS being prohibited from creating a gun owner database, any effort to create a Real ID parallel to CCW reciprocity at the national level will be eagerly sought after by anti-gun forces and the ATF and the Swamp in general.

Can you imagine the potential targeting for harassment that would be possible with DMV licensing and CCW licensing merged into a federally accessible database?  How many more 4-S codes would be printed on airline tickets of CCW holders?  How much more stinkeye CCW holders would get coming through customs? 
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,896
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2018, 07:23:15 AM »
I promise you, gunsmith, the last thing you want is "national" "reciprocity."

The only reciprocity you're going to get out of it is Dick Durbin and Chuck Schumer and Dianne Feinstein and their ilk having influence over firearms policy in Nevada, Utah, and Arizona.  It'll be nothing more than a way for California and New York to continue to *expletive deleted*it on fly-over country.  

Think about ALL THE WAYS it can go wrong.  Want to see 10rd mags become a de facto market induced standard?  They won't do an AWB again at the national level... they'll use lowest common denominator bullshit via national reciprocity or "symmetry" of law... national reciprocity will only apply to people carrying firearms on a list eerily similar to the CA DOJ "approved" firearms list.  

And once the Feds can "approve" something, they can take away that "approval" since they now have legislative history on the issue.

No.  Fugging.  Way.

Agreed.  Been saying that and similar since the issue came  up, but was hooted down by the "Driver's License-ers" and those who want to stuff it to the New Yorker-type States by packing in Times Square.

You do not want the Feds messing around with concealed carry, and brother, that ain't paranoia.

. < that's a period.

Terry

WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,324
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2018, 07:38:58 AM »
Even not counting the anti gun issues, the feds *expletive deleted*ck everything they touch up. Currently I can carry in most states that offer shall issue permits with my SC and Utah permits. Believe me you don’t want the feds to “help” in any way
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

gunsmith

  • I forgot to get vaccinated!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,181
  • I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2018, 09:43:41 PM »
unless i somehow get police credentials, like if i win the lottery and can pay off some small town badge mill, i will never be able to legally carry in NYC.
I'm not scared of packing illegally, i prefer packing legally - but i have family in NYC, i have to visit someday.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

zxcvbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,246
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2018, 11:32:00 PM »
unless i somehow get police credentials, like if i win the lottery and can pay off some small town badge mill, i will never be able to legally carry in NYC.
I'm not scared of packing illegally, i prefer packing legally - but i have family in NYC, i have to visit someday.

Run for sheriff :)
"It's good, though..."

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,778
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2018, 09:16:40 AM »
First:  It doesn't take a genius to see that not all Republicans are pro-gun rights.  If you actually thought that, you weren't paying attention.  They are just on average more pro-gun (or less anti-gun) than Democrats who seem to be completely anti-gun these days.

Second:  No law is automatic just because the party supporting it is in the majority.  You can't just snap your fingers and pass new laws (or we would have a whole lot more bad laws to deal with).  Pro-gun laws are going to take a bigger fight at the federal level than we have seen from gun owners.  I honestly don't think the NRA is really up for doing that.   

“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,896
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2018, 11:04:27 AM »
unless i somehow get police credentials, like if i win the lottery and can pay off some small town badge mill, i will never be able to legally carry in NYC.
I'm not scared of packing illegally, i prefer packing legally - but i have family in NYC, i have to visit someday.

Your problem is not unique, but the solution is not national reciprocity (which is loaded with pitfalls for the rest of us), but to try (ha!) to get New Yorkers, et alia, to change their minds about firearms.

Since that is well nigh impossible, don't mess up concealed carry for the rest of us by getting the feds involved.

I note that most of the reciprocity folks seem to have business or family interests in those places.

I do, too, back in New York, but my solution is to either stay the hell out of there, or, as the saying goes, "when in New York (or Rome) do as the New Yorkers (Romans) do."

In other words, observe their laws, stupid as they are.

Terry

* et alia
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,778
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2018, 11:24:46 AM »
The issue I was concerned about with national reciprocity is that we would see a bunch of people get arrested/convicted because they didn't understand the self defense laws in other states. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,896
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2018, 02:21:05 PM »
No, the problem, as was mentioned above, is the opening of the legislative door.  For, as I have said before, what was passed as law today, can be changed tomorrow.

A year later...

Senator Nooyawker:  "We can't have your yahoos from the middle of Nevada running around New York without training.  We should have everybody go through a uniform training... say, 100 rounds at 100 yards within a 6 inch group."

Then starts the "compromising" and Senator Nevoody says, "You make that 50 yards and 50 rounds and a 12" circle and I'll vote for it if you'll vote for my pet water bill."

And Senator Nooyawker says, "Well, I won't vote for it, but I'll help sponsor it."

Senator Nevoody says, "Done and done. That makes my water bill 'bipartisan.'  Got time for nine holes?"

An hyperbolic example, but meant to show how those things work.  Before long, as someone said, you'll be operating under 50% California laws, and before much longer, 100% California laws.  "They're in it for the long haul."

Beside, it strikes me, as a dyed in the wool strict constructionist, all laws pertaining to concealed carry should be declared unconstitutional if put to the test.

Frankly, it's neither Colorado's nor the Fed's business if I choose to bear my arms under my MAGA hat.

Well, that's pretty hyperbolic too, I reckon.  At least with a .45.

Terry, 230RN
Edited for spelling error
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 01:34:44 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

gunsmith

  • I forgot to get vaccinated!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,181
  • I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2018, 10:08:18 PM »
"whatabout"
the abortion people, they are not enumerated in the bill of rights, yet they can totally travel and kill their progeny.
gay marriage, legal everywhere.

is "strict scrutiny" scotus decision something to aim for?
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,896
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2018, 04:15:14 AM »
I, personally, would like to see "strict scrutiny" for just about everything.  I think those guys we call Founders, who were well-experienced, well-educated, and well aware of the trends of governments in the long run, would not have laboriously written that stuff down if they didn't mean it in the first place. That's my personal worthless opinion.

And the Second Amendment is about the shortest declaration of a right in the Constitution.

Terry, 230RN
Edited to correct typo.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 08:10:33 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,778
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2018, 11:28:03 AM »
I, personally, would like to see "strict scrutiny" for just about everything.  I think those guys we call Founders, who were well-experienced, well-educated, and well aware of the trends of governments in the long run, would not have laboriously written that stuff down if they didn't mean it in the first place. That's my personal worthless opinion.

And the Second Amendment is about the shortest declaration of a right in the the Constitution.

Terry, 230RN


It seems that anything short of scrict scrutiny is pretty much a "do what you want" ruling.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2018, 11:35:07 AM »
I promise you, gunsmith, the last thing you want is "national" "reciprocity."

The only reciprocity you're going to get out of it is Dick Durbin and Chuck Schumer and Dianne Feinstein and their ilk having influence over firearms policy in Nevada, Utah, and Arizona.  It'll be nothing more than a way for California and New York to continue to *expletive deleted*it on fly-over country. 

Think about ALL THE WAYS it can go wrong.  Want to see 10rd mags become a de facto market induced standard?  They won't do an AWB again at the national level... they'll use lowest common denominator bullshit via national reciprocity or "symmetry" of law... national reciprocity will only apply to people carrying firearms on a list eerily similar to the CA DOJ "approved" firearms list. 

And once the Feds can "approve" something, they can take away that "approval" since they now have legislative history on the issue.

No.  Fugging.  Way.

Yes. I'd rather have to abide my home state rules than those made in coastal states.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2018, 11:38:35 AM »
i get the opposition you guys have, why can't it be treated like a drivers license?
national reciprocity doesn't mean federal reciprocity.
in CA my license allows me to split lanes riding a bike/illegal in other states but all states recognize my DL

...or a marriage license?

"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,896
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: is national reciprocity just a dream?
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2018, 11:50:27 AM »
Yes. I'd rather have to abide my home state rules than those made in coastal states.

Damned good way of putting it.


Terry
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 12:09:02 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.