Author Topic: Traffic engineering incompetence  (Read 3851 times)

Brad Johnson

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Traffic engineering incompetence
« on: February 20, 2007, 09:57:35 AM »
The Lubbock city council recently voted to install red-light cameras at several locations.  They did so in the face of a mountain of evidence unsupportive of the camera's effectivness as a traffic safety tool. 

Apparently they didn't think that their actions might place them under a microscope.  Imagine their surprise when a local TV station goes out to the 12 proposed locations, times the lights, and finds that 8 of them don't even meet the minimum standards for proper and safe traffic control.

They even had the unmitigated gall to act surprised!

Bull-hockey.  This goes beyond questionable and falls squarely into one of two categories. Its either a bold-faced lie or an outright example of complete and utter incompetence.

Don't know? Good grief, how can they NOT know!!?? The timing was the FIRST thing they would have checked if the intersections were becoming accident hot spots. It's Step One in the "Problem Intersection Analysis" playbook, for cryin' out loud!

The city knew full well these intersections were poorly timed. They were staying mute in the hopes of increased ticket revenue. That or they wanted the ability to play the Good Guy card by "discovering" the problem and retiming the lights some time in the future.

If they truly didn't know about the timing issue, well, I cant decide if that might not be worse than the lie. A lie can be fixed with proper application of truth. You can't fix stupid.

Brad
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2007, 10:11:19 AM »
We just got the cameras in Saint Louis this week. And there was much rejoicing.   rolleyes
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HankB

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2007, 10:42:43 AM »
In the Austin, TX area, the road mess isn't a case of mere incompetence on the part of local and TxDOT employees involved in roadbuilding . . . the only word that seems to properly explain their actions is malice. (I suppose under-the-table kickbacks may be a factor, as well.)
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280plus

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2007, 12:16:37 PM »
Won't they soon be needing cameras to watch THOSE cameras? And then cameras to watch the cameras that are watching the cameras? And then...  rolleyes

 grin
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2007, 12:23:01 PM »
Traffic cameras are a scam.  They have nothing to do with their stated purpose (public safety) and everything to do with control and reveneering.  They bear much in common with gun control measures.

crt360

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2007, 12:25:31 PM »
Do any of the auto GPS navigation systems map city cameras?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2007, 01:59:18 PM »
Won't they soon be needing cameras to watch THOSE cameras? And then cameras to watch the cameras that are watching the cameras? And then...  rolleyes

 grin

Why don't they just train the cameras on us dangerous subversives? 
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2007, 02:23:37 PM »
Won't they soon be needing cameras to watch THOSE cameras? And then cameras to watch the cameras that are watching the cameras? And then...  rolleyes

 grin

Why don't they just train the cameras on us dangerous subversives? 
Isn't that what they're doing now...?

Waitone

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2007, 02:38:13 PM »
One can make a safety argument for red light cameras.  But red lights is only the start.  Next up will be automated radar cameras which have no other purpose than to generate revenue mostly for the company installing and operating the camera.  Seems the way the game is play the city gets chump change while the contactor walks off the most of the revenue.  Fear not, the cameras are being removed just as fast as they are being installed.  It takes about a year before the public gets fed up.
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280plus

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2007, 02:38:56 PM »
What caliber for cameras?  grin
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Parker Dean

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2007, 03:28:40 PM »
There was some state legislator that introduced a bill to outlaw red light cameras. Can't remember exactly who.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2007, 03:29:52 PM »
What caliber for cameras?  grin
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BobR

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2007, 09:16:37 PM »
In England, where they have been disarmed, it seems fire works fairly well to render the cams inoperable!

bob

Art Eatman

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2007, 06:46:58 AM »
About a year ago I read the results of a study of these redlight cameras.  It was observed that people would remember the cameras, lock up their brakes, and get rear-ended.  The net result was an increase in whiplash injuries.

Or, lock up late and stop into the intersection.  Even if they didn't get T-boned, there would be some traffic snarl.

Art
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2007, 06:50:46 AM »
About a year ago I read the results of a study of these redlight cameras.  It was observed that people would remember the cameras, lock up their brakes, and get rear-ended.  The net result was an increase in whiplash injuries.

Or, lock up late and stop into the intersection.  Even if they didn't get T-boned, there would be some traffic snarl.

Art

Everything I was finding corroborates that.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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mtnbkr

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2007, 07:19:36 AM »
We wouldn't have this problem/plague if people wouldn't run red lights or if cops did their job and pulled folks over for running red lights (I've seen them sit idly by as folks in the next lane blatantly run the red light).  It's getting more and more common to see 1-4 people blow through a red light as if it weren't even there.  I'm not talking about the folks that get caught because they misjudged a yellow light, but the ones who hit the red before they even get to the intersection.  You have to wait a second or two before you can start moving on a fresh green.

I thought it was a metro area problem, but I've seen it happening more often in rural areas as well.

Chris

mtnbkr

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2007, 07:20:36 AM »
Oh, and while they had and later rejected the cameras in Northern Va, they're getting ready to be re-enabled. 

Chris

charby

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2007, 08:36:17 AM »
well in Iowa a district judge said traffic light camera are illegal

http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2007/01/03/news/local/doc459ac944623a9554725656.txt

Quote
Judge rules against traffic cameras
By Dustin Lemmon and Tory Brecht | Wednesday, January 03, 2007

Every motorist who has received a citation from Davenports red light and speed cameras may get a refund after a court ruling Tuesday that found the machines violate Iowa motor vehicle laws.

District Court Judge Gary McKenrick ruled in favor of plaintiffs Monique Rhoden, Rock Island, and Curt Canfield, Davenport, and found the city does not have the authority to issue an ordinance that conflicts with state motor vehicle code.

City officials said they plan to appeal the ruling.

The fact is these cameras are widespread throughout the country, and throughout the world for that matter,

Davenport Police Chief Mike Bladel said. So its hard for me to believe that this thing is over.

Richard Davidson, one of the Davenport attorneys representing the plaintiffs, said the judge agreed with a motion they filed for summary judgment. In that motion, the plaintiffs argued that because the ordinance imposes a civil infraction against the owner of the car it conflicts with the state motor vehicle code.

Davidson said he plans to file a motion in coming weeks to make the case a class-action suit, which if approved by a judge could refund everyone who has received a ticket from the cameras. He estimates that 14,000 people have received a ticket based on violations recorded by the cameras.

It looks pretty good for people getting a refund, he said.

Davidson expects it to take two months to get the class action filed and possibly as long as 12 months for the case to go through appeals.

Attorney Catherine Cartee, who also represents the plaintiffs, said when the class action is filed, it could fall under two categories, one of which would require those whove received tickets to take action to join the suit. If that happens, she and Davidson would have to find a way to make the public aware of the suit, and it would likely be another six months before that happens, she said. In the other scenario, those who received tickets would be contacted in some way.

If the class-action status is not approved, which Cartee thinks is unlikely, they could file a separate legal action on behalf of everyone who received a ticket, she said.

Cartee said the attorneys have not filed for an injunction that would bar the city from continuing to use the cameras. She said they will give the city time to make that decision before considering legal action.

I dont know why it would be financially wise to continue when they might have to give all of the money back, Cartee said.

Rhoden and Canfield won their cases and will receive a refund, but the attorneys said they dont know how the refund process would work for the thousands of other motorists who would be included in the class-action case.

Mary Thee, Davenports corporate counsel, said she plans to appeal the decision to the Iowa Supreme Court within the next 30 days.

She said the facts in the case were virtually identical to those of a previous case that the city won.

We received a favorable decision in the Seymour case, she said, referring to a suit filed by Thomas J. Seymour last spring that alleged his constitutional rights were violated because the city ordinance shifts the burden of proof to the accused. In that case, Scott County Magistrate Kyle Williamson ruled that the use of the cameras is within the authority granted to municipalities by the state.

What we have now is two different judges who have a different legal perspective on the same same legal issue with two different results, Thee said. So ultimately, the Iowa Supreme Court will make the decision.

Meantime, the city has decisions to make, including whether to keep the cameras operational and whether to continue collecting revenue. In addition, finance director Alan Guard and Bladel recently announced plans to use $470,000 in camera fine revenue to help fund a new police officer, create a juvenile crime unit, fund the Volunteers in Police Service program and increase neighborhood enforcement.

Thee and Bladel said city leaders will meet today to discuss options, adding that city administrator Craig Malin was out of town Tuesday and could not be reached.

Alderman Keith Meyer, 3rd Ward, wants to have all legal issues resolved before earmarking the money for the police department.

Because of the amount of revenue generated and the pace at which it continues, the city should omit camera revenue from the 2008 budget and create an immediate contingency in this years budget, he said.

Bladel said hes more concerned about the impact on public safety than any financial hit to the police department.

These systems are worth fighting for, he said. I personally believe  and there is growing empirical evidence that shows  they make our streets safer. People are paying more attention to our traffic laws, and (the cameras) are keeping people alive.

The first of the eight speed cameras was installed in January 2006, and the five red light cameras went up in 2004. Rhoden filed her lawsuit in August after a camera at the intersection of Kimberly Road and Harrison Street caught her speeding. Canfield was added as a plaintiff a few months later.

Davidson said the ruling also includes citations issued by Davenports mobile speed limit enforcement van, which has been in use since January 2006.

Dustin Lemmon can be contacted at (563) 383-2493 or dlemmon@qctimes.com.

What it means

Motorists who have received a traffic citation from Davenports speed and red light cameras will have to wait about two months for a  hearing that will determine whether the case becomes a class-action suit. A court date has not been set. If the case becomes a class-action suit, there could be a long delay while the ruling goes through the appeals process. Attorneys representing two plaintiffs who won their cases against the city Tuesday said its not clear yet how a refund process would work.
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Waitone

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2007, 02:58:45 AM »
When Greensboro installed the cameras rear enders increased and coincidently the yellow light cycle time decrease.  Wonder why?
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Lee

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2007, 03:31:39 AM »
Cameras are mostly a good idea gone bad. Two major problems with the idea (in addition to others mentioned):
1) They rarely identify who the driver actually is.
2) Many cities require that the fine (not always called a fine though) be paid in advance of an appeal or conviction, e.g. the court date is scheduled long after the  due date for paying the ticket.  In Columbus Ohio the non-refundable appeal process costs more than paying the fine, and must be payed in advance.  Hardly seems constitutional to me.

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2007, 07:21:54 AM »
  Hardly seems constitutional to me.
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Thor

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2007, 07:39:30 AM »
Minneapolis was forced to turn theirs off (or at least not prosecute for violations). The cameras failed to identify the actual driver. At least that was the premise. I've driven in Minneapolis quite a bit and it's not uncommon to see several vehicles to run the red lights. It also doesn't help that Minnesota gave pedestrians the absolute right of way, years ago. So, not only do we have drivers that run the red lights, but we have pedestrians that IGNORE the red lights. I don't know what the answer is as there aren't enough police to do effective traffic control. Of course, in some cities here, I see them hanging out at the local convenience stores, at the office, etc. It sure seems as if time management has gone asunder.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2007, 07:47:01 AM »
Texas law is very clear that moving violations may only be issued to the DRIVER of a vehicle.  When it comes to cameras the driver must be positively identified in the photo.  Lubbock, however, got around this by making red light running a violation if city ordinance, not a moving violation.  This way they can fine the owner of the vehicle that committed the infraction no matter who was driving.  In other words, your brother might have borrowed your truck and run the light, but you get stuck with the fine.  And there's nothing you can do about it because they have proof positive (the photo) that your truck was involved.

On the upside, it doesn't count as a moving violation and doesn't go on your driving record.  However, this - in a of itself - is absolute proof that safety is not the issue.  If it was, they would be taking extra steps to go after the driver.  It's nothing but a run for money and an appeasment to those ill-informed, but very vocal, busybodies who think that red light cameras will solve the world's traffic ills.

Brad
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MechAg94

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2007, 12:24:03 PM »
Houston has started doing this.  What people are finding out is that they don't get a ticket from the City of Houston, they get a bill from a company in New Mexico or somewhere.  Come to find out, it is only a "civil penalty" and has power as a criminal violation.  If you don't pay, they can't take criminal action against you.  They claim they can take civil action, but that is not likely.  Personally, I don't mind paying a fine to the City or State, but I wouldn't want to pay a fine to a 3rd party company.

I believe Texas state law says that a machine can't issue a traffic citation or something similar.  It was put into law some years ago regarding radar cameras for speeding. 

I am not sure how Lubbock has done it, but if they plan to carry non-payment over to criminal action, they would likely have a fight on their hands regarding that state law. 
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Car Knocker

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Re: Traffic engineering incompetence
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2007, 05:41:30 PM »
Far as I know, it's against the law for a DRIVER to operate a vehicle in excess of the posted speed - I've never heard of a law that makes it a crime for a VEHICLE to speed.  What is the basis for the fine?
Don