Author Topic: Inductor Question  (Read 2250 times)

Nick1911

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Inductor Question
« on: November 21, 2007, 09:02:19 AM »
Im working on ideas for a Flux Compression Generator, only (hopefully) non-destructive.

The setup:
Take an inductor with a movable metal (steel) core (hmm& solenoid?) and pass current through it while the metal core is in place.

The question:
What (if anything) happens electrically when the core is forcibly removed while the inductor is energized? What laws govern this?

What if the core was magnetized? It should act like a linear generator, but would having a pre-existing electromagnetic field change anything? If so, how in theory would it change?

The theory:
The inductor should resist the core being pulled out, much like a solenoid. Energy is conserved, so the mechanical energy of pulling the metal core out must end up somewhere, but does it end up in the electrical system?

Thanks for considering this question!

Werewolf

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2007, 09:21:26 AM »
The coil's core impacts the total inductance of the coil. Removing the core will (if I remember what they taught me in the Navy correctly) reduce the inductance thus the coil's ability to maintain the magnetic field around it will be reduced. The impedance of the coil will increase (again IIRC what I was taught in the Navy). My guess is that the increased impedance will result in the coil heating up. How much is a function of the math which I honestly don't remember anymore. Might be enough to open the coil, might not.

There will be effects on other components in the system since total circuit impedance will change; what that might be depends on the circuit in question.
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never_retreat

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2007, 10:07:16 AM »
Is someone trying to build their own rail gun?
I call the .gov .feds right now for you. police
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Nick1911

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2007, 10:10:15 AM »
Is someone trying to build their own rail gun?
I call the .gov .feds right now for you. police


It would probably end up dumping the pulse into a big LC circuit designed to resonate at some megahertz, matched to an antennae...

drewtam

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2007, 01:05:14 PM »
Is someone trying to build their own rail gun?
I call the .gov .feds right now for you. police


It would probably end up dumping the pulse into a big LC circuit designed to resonate at some megahertz, matched to an antennae...

I've thought about something similiar, as an anti cellphone IED killer.

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Nick1911

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2007, 02:00:16 PM »
Hmm...

I have a solenoid I can play with.  I'll grab my test equipment from my parents house this weekend and see what happens, if anything.

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2007, 10:05:24 PM »
I want one to use on the stereo systems of those drivers considerate enough to share their musical choices with the entire neighborhood.
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jeepmor

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2007, 12:27:18 AM »
If left unharnessed, the inductor will toss the iron core completely out, hence the railgun analogy. 

E=BLV

E=volts
B=Magnetic strength in Gauss
L=Length of conductor (your coil, proportional to the number of wraps)
V=Velocity of magnet through the coil

You usually know three and solve for the unknown.

More wraps on solenoid wire and the stronger the magnetic field, the higher the velocity of said core through the windings, and the greater the pulse, or voltage in this case.

The key is the explosion that creates the huge velocities of a magnet through a winding with mucho windings count. 

I recall this stuff from physics in college.  I remember thinking if you could load a gun with a strong magnet as a bullet instead of a typical lead projectile, this would provide your mucho velocity.  Then you just fashion a coil that attaches to the muzzle and send the magnet through with normal rifle casing. 

In this case, I'd choose a rifle and fashion my own bullets out of magnetic material or, use a shotgun slug, drill a hole in it and put a magnet inside the massive hollowpoint you just fashioned.  Or, you could machine the magnetic bullet under sized and wrap it with paper to engage the rifling adequately.

In a rifle that had screw on tip for a flash suppressor or silencer, you could fashion your coil out of something aluminum that you could wind with 1000s of wraps of magnet wire, the more the better.  This is the L portion of the equation.  Now, what kind of antenna do you connect it to direct such pulse, I don't know, that's beyond my field.  I was a mechanical engineering student, not an electronics guy.  However, were I attempting this, I suspect I'd use one round at a time.  The pulse might be intense enough to ignite any primers in a magazine.  I'm not sure, for they should be grounded, but I wouldn't chance it.  In the case of the firearm mounted model I just discussed, it would not be destroyed each time, so only your bullets would be consumable, everything else should survive.  If it created too much amperage, it could fry the wire, in which case, you'd need heavier gauge wire and need to try again.

Good luck.

I suppose some electronics gurus should be chiming in here.  I remember an electronics major buddy doing impulse calculations where they dumped the energy out of a capacitor at nearly zero time and it generated huge spikes in electrical energy.  I don't recall if it was current or voltage, but I suspect voltage.

Hope this helps.  Have fun and be safe.

jeepmor
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280plus

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2007, 03:22:55 AM »
You'll shoot your eye out!!  shocked

 laugh

The curious part in me begs a question though. Why?

I DO think it's interesting that you can compress a magnetic wave with what? Air pressure essentially?
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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2007, 11:00:31 PM »
Pfft.  Lose the idea for the fluxcompression generator, and build a capcitor on the same theory instead.  Far more potential for usefulness.






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Scout26

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2007, 05:18:13 AM »
and make sure you have your reservation at the emergency room.
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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2007, 05:47:11 AM »
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jeepmor

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2007, 04:48:26 AM »
Quote
Pfft.  Lose the idea for the fluxcompression generator, and build a capcitor on the same theory instead.  Far more potential for usefulness.

Care to provide any data on how?  The guy asks a legitimate physics question and everyone goes armchair never been to college but  "I can tell you how to make it better, but can't share data" stance.  That's real big of everyone.

Do any of you have any real input besides just mocking the guy for wanting to try something but belittling others?  So far, I think not.  It's always easier to be a smart ass than contribute.  As the saying goes.  Rather be a smart ass than a dumb ass.  But the person still misses the point, they're still an ass.

Any movement on your goal Nick1911, I'd be happy to see some pics of any contraptions you come up with.  Interesting stuff, although, I'm not sure you should really share in a forum like this with a bunch of armchair wannabe scientists debating without contributing squat in regard to actual physics.

I digress, this is a conservatives forum, not a science forum. Browbeat our OP as you were if it makes you feel better, considering the responses, your stances are obvious until you step up and CONTRIBUTE!

You're not compressing a magnetic wave, you're sending a magnet through a toroid coil so damn fast is generates a huge magnetic pulse.  E=BLV, ever take any math classes. 
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280plus

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2007, 05:52:45 AM »
Lighten up Francis...

There's a difference between mockery and cracking a little joke. If you ask me, what he's trying to create is, at the very least and from what I can tell, dangerous as hell, hence the legitimacy of my question.

Quote
E=BLV, ever take any math classes.
No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time...

You'll notice there were question marks at the end of my questions. That would indicate I was asking. Thanks for the answer, but not necessarily the 'tude...

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jeepmor

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2007, 06:38:44 PM »
Okay, rant over, Francis is a little lightened up as you put it. grin  I did not even consider your comments in my post, rather the people stating a capacitor would be more effective, yet no backing of the theory provided. 

I just get tired of seeing everyone chime in to be a wiseguy and not even trying to contribute to the guys goal.  I'm not saying everyone has to be right, but a reals stab at the problem instead of the old flux capacitor joke does not contribute to the question. 

Sorry all, I take myself a bit too seriously and often do the same wiseguy crap I denounce here. 
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.

"Oh, so now you're saying they don't have a right to whine about their First Amendment rights?  Fascist."  -fistul

280plus

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2007, 09:05:32 AM »
Not a problem, I'd help him if I could but would want to know what for first. That's one crazy instrument he's trying to build up right there.  grin
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280plus

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Re: Inductor Question
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2007, 11:17:14 AM »
Hmmm, that may make me a nanny,,,but I'm still not a state!  laugh
Avoid cliches like the plague!