Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: myrockfight on December 26, 2009, 01:03:49 PM
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In my city, we have what most people describe as a homeless "problem". At the least, it is an issue. I've been badgered, harassed, asked politely, chased, and helped (pulling car out in traffic), for the sole purpose of securing a buck or two by the the homeless folk running around here.
They sleep on benches, under them, in parks, on sidewalks, in/around bushes, and everywhere else. They are, at a minimum, an awful eyesore in an otherwise attractive downtown area. They populate all the exits to the highway and many of the stoplights around town. I have even seen two or three of them operate in shifts on one particular exit and they hide their stuff/each other behind the shrubbery about 50 meters from the exit next to a wall.
The homeless badger every third person or so walking down the street for money. Many of which I have seen walk right into a convenience store and spend said money on alcohol. Which has led me to think that giving them any money only exacerbates their alcohol/drug problems. So I have refrained from giving them money at all. This got me thinking that if everyone did the same, the homeless would stop congregating downtown or lessen their activities significantly.
Then to take that a step further - their are homeless shelters and groups of people that "help" the homeless giving by feeding them, passing out tents/blankets, etc.
There is no doubt that the homeless put a damper on our downtown businesses. When you have homeless people coming up to you, while you're eating outside, and asking for money and then "if you are going to eat that," there is definitely a problem. That happened to my friend last year. My friend owns a restaurant downtown and is constantly running off those that badger clients or sit at the outside tables running off potential clients (in some cases literally). This has led to loud arguments and an assault charge/arrest against a homeless man. All of the incidents run-off clients who obviously wouldn't want to deal with an incident where yelling/cussing/assault is involved.
Anyway. I have decided not to give them any of my money anymore. And I know for some of the homeless, they are mentally handicapped. Although, someone could argue that most of them are based on different criteria. But, and this may not be very Christian of me, I was thinking that many of them wouldn't make the choice to be homeless if it wasn't so "easy" to do so. They can always get a free meal, at least twice a day anyway. They are also provided an number of beds to populate.
Those that don't get a bed are provided sleeping bags, blankets, and a tent to set up in a particular spot they use under an overpass. This has been a point of contention and the "tent city" was literally cut down by fire officials because it was a "fire hazard." I think it was an excuse by city officials who are fed up with the problem but largely have their hands tied.
Now thinking like an economist, if you increased the "cost" of being homeless in the area, there should be less homeless around. Right? I stopped giving them money. If everyone stopped doing it - that is one less perk, therefore increasing the cost of being homeless. Taking that a step further - if they stopped feeding/clothing/housing homeless people, most of those people (those that make the choice to be homeless, not the mentally ill) would not choose to be homeless. Personally, I am starting to believe this is the most ideal situation. Increase the cost of being homeless. While you will not eradicate the homeless problem, you can make it a lot less appealing to most of them.
Is that a poor attitude to have or does it make sense?
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To be perfectly blunt, many beggars I've come across over the years aren't homeless. They've got issues (PTSD, schizophrenia, addictions, or just plain laziness) and that's the way their life has gone toward dealing with it. Some are genuinely in need, and can't do much to change their situation - these folks are very much only a tiny minority of the total amount of beggars you will see.
In Columbus, Ohio and Denver, Colorado both, I was able to have very honest answers given to me by some of these people. One beggar I met that worked Denver near a parking structure entrance made over $500, cash, a day. He got dropped off there in the morning by a van, picked up at night. He got to keep a share of the money, and in return had transportation, lived in an apartment with a handful of other people (all doing the same routine of begging) and made a comfortable, if unorthodox, living.
I file most beggars in with people who go to the hospital emergency medicine department for three hots and a cot. =|
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The Greater Seattle area has a significant homeless population. Some of them are there due to psychiatric or substance issues, some of them are there due to economic upheaval and some of them are there due to a lifestyle choice. I do not know how the percentages break down. Almost every freeway exit has someone with a sign up soliciting money.
I am no longer able to distinguish which homeless person is there for what reason, so I no longer make donations to individuals. I have no problem paying taxes, taking in friends or relatives who have lost their job and subsequently their home, making charitable donations or donating my time through church or work for persons who are homeless due to psychiatric/substance/economic reasons. In recent years the governmental and charitable safety net have become increasingly frayed and I do what I can to help. I sincerely believe that a society is in part measured by how well it is able to assist the vulnerable and people who need help.
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My wife is sympathetic...her heartstrings are easily tugged. Me on the other had...she has lots of choice words for me when I refuse to help.
Tucson was bad....on every corner due to the favorable weather. W. Texas is too cold for 'em and I don't miss them a bit.
Ed
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I rarely give to the "homeless". Where I live its become increasingly difficult to tell the difference between the truly temporarily down on their luck, those who choose it as a lifestyle, and those who choose to hold up a sign for food only to go and buy alcohol.
I've chosen to give a good sum of money annually to the local Salvation Army. I give enough to provide food and shelter for two people for a year. I believe I'm doing my share by providing funds to an organization where I know the money I give will be put to good use versus potentially going to purchasing goods that may prolong someone's condition.
I can only speak for what I've seen where I live. The homeless were officially "welcomed" here around 10 years ago, I suppose as part of the rich liberal guilt in the area. Being welcomed turned into "we're in control". After about a year, there were regular incidents of things like people asking for money but who were denied spitting on the people who didn't give them anything and/or threatening them with violence. Finally the city got enough complaints that they reigned in the welcome a bit. We still have a good number of homeless, most of whom inhabit a couple of local parks, a couple of beach areas. and several downtown corners adjacent to liquor stores.
Most of them are friendly enough now, and don't seem to care one way or another if you give them anything. They just sit in their spots with a sign out. There's one guy that's been doing it in the harbor where my office is for as long as I've been there. Frankly I think he makes a decent living at it. I watch him sometimes and he spends a lot of time taking donations out of his can and putting them in his pocket to make the can look empty.
Most of the current homeless people in my city don't really bother me. As long as they don't harass people and are content with how they're dealing with their situation, it's okay by me. Though as I said I won't give them money, though I do refer them to the Salvation Army.
The only ones that really bother me around here are the 30-40 year old guys with the "Vietnam Vet" signs, and the people that try and ambush me for "a couple of dollars for gas so I can look for work". My favorite response to the latter is to tell them to bring me a gas can or pull their car up to my pump, and I'll gladly give them some gas. Never had a taker yet.
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What happened to the word "bum?"
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It's been many, many years since I gave anyone begging money. The last guy I gave money to told me his story about losing his job and family because he was a drunk. He told me that he'd be taking any money he got to go get drunk. I gave him money just for being honest about it.
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AFAIK, there are no homeless, nor beggars in my town (probably too small for them to be able to live on it). OTOH, I see quite a lot of Eastern european/balkanese gypsies whenever I'm in Stockholm or Göteborg. Funny how all of them have a small child with some horrible disease, and how all of them have these laminated cards they hand out asking for money, and how all of these cards, handed out by different persons, have the same kid(s) on them, with only the diseases being different ;/. Nope, not cynical at all ;/. Then there's the ones playing some instrument, usually accordion, an instrument that I hate more than anything else. They get nothing just because of the sound pollution. I do give to some of the guitar players occasionally, as long as I don't get the suspicion that they are part of the organized begging crews...
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Call me crazy, but I somehow doubt that someone who has lost their home due to job loss would respond by becoming a beggar.
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As has been noted in this thread and in others, some folks are homeless, some are between homes, and others have found a source of income that trades standing for 8 - 10 hours for tax-free cash at what may be a very good clip. Some are suffering from mental illnesses, some have "social problems" and others are just more comfortable with an alternative lifestyle.
If a municipality wanted to clear them out of certain areas there are existing legislative models that have already passed scrutiny by SCOTUS (yes, "the homeless" can and have paid for lawyers to take their cases all the way up the ladder of appeals). If a municipality does not take the time & effort to do so, a reasonable inferrence is that they do not want to.
As for personal responses to "Will Work For Food" or other indications of soliciting independent charity - there are a multitude of potential responses ranging from outright throwing money at them as you whizz by in your steel chariot, to stopping to offer actual (usually unskilled) employment at or below the mionimum wage, to offering to take them to a restaurant where you will buy them all the food they can consume in a single sitting. Option #1 usually, as the OP has noted, often results in the exchange of that cash for alcoholic beverage or drugs. Option #2 often results in a verbal chastisement (to put an extremely pretty face on it) from the object of your offer. Option#3 may get you either a heartfelt "Thanks" or a chastisement as noted in option #2.
Depending on your personal religious understandings, beggars may either be put on earth to give those more fortunate the opportunity to provide charity (go look up the history of schnorer - a Yiddish term for one who espouses this outlook and schnorring - the actual begging process of the schnorrer) or beggars may be the last remnants of proof that capitalism fails to provide for all elements of society. [personal note: No s**t, Sherlock!] Once you start with the rationalizations you begin getting hybrids of the two extremes (IMHO).
Personally I prefer to operate along the lines of option #3 above. I expect no actual gratitude, but I do expect to see at least two (2) of the largest combo meals on the menu consumed a claim to be sated is uttered. I also hope to get a decent story of the individual's circumstances and history. It does not have to contain a whit of truth, but it ought to be entertaining. My experience is that those who appear the most in need of a bath, laundering of clothing, and a refill of some antipsychotic med are the ones who are both the most in need of this route of charitable giving and the most appreciative of this sort of charity. My experience is that there are few restaurants, even the fast-food window service only sort, who are happy to see me bringing these folks to them for a meal.
My bottom line is that if one does not like seeing or dealing with "the homeless" one ought to not look at them and pass on by. Someone else will, in some manner, deal with them. If you want to go on record as advocating for legislating them out of your back yard and into someone else's, knock yourself out. Just be aware of the fact that until and unless Utopia is achieved they are going to be among us, so learn to deal with them in a way that reduces the amount of emotional discomfort you inflict on yourself regarding them.
stay safe.
skidmark
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or beggars may be the last remnants of proof that capitalism fails to provide for all elements of society. [personal note: No s**t, Sherlock!]
As opposed to what?
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I don't give to the homeless because of the reasons outlines above. From my experience, the ones who I want to help (the mentally ill and those who really want to get off the street) won't ask for the help from people on the street. The people spanging you on the streets are mostly just punk street people who want heroin or alcohol. I find that the ones who really want to help themselves have resources available to them.
I do like the idea of donating to organizations like the Salvation Army though, as they can offer some help to those who really do want to get themselves out of the bad situation.
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One beggar I met that worked Denver near a parking structure entrance made over $500, cash, a day.
This.
It is more the norm than the exception (I think actually figures are probably just south of $400). I've lived plenty of places, including New York city, and in all of these cities, I could find a month of food, a rather comfortable warm apartment, and a suit for only a week of work at those rates. I've only ever concluded that for those that are not mentally ill, it must be a choice, either to keep doing drugs or to make more money than they'd make at a normal job. I haven't checked lately but I don't think there are many jobs paying $400/day for unskilled labor where you stand in one spot and don't do any lifting.
The mentally ill thing is always disturbing because of the political pawns that the mentally ill have become. Budget short-fall? Cut school buses and public mental health facilities. Put the sick people out in public. People don't want the mentally ill running in the streets, they'll go for the tax increase.
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Now thinking like an economist, if you increased the "cost" of being homeless in the area, there should be less homeless around.
This might apply to beggars, but for individuals and families that have lost everything, for whatever reason, you'll see an increase in problems. If the bums (those who bum change) can't get it from the working citizens, they'll turn on the weak among their own even more.
I'm in an area with a lot of homelessness, and I was getting fairly close to joining them a few weeks ago (I'm good now). While I have a great deal of sympathy, giving them change is a no-no. If they seem to be coherent and truly down on their luck I have been known to buy one or two of them a meal.
If a municipality wanted to clear them out of certain areas there are existing legislative models that have already passed scrutiny by SCOTUS (yes, "the homeless" can and have paid for lawyers to take their cases all the way up the ladder of appeals). If a municipality does not take the time & effort to do so, a reasonable inference is that they do not want to.
I don't know where you live, but "clearing them out" takes money--a lot of money--which most municipalities are hurting for. And many more people are on the street because most of that money, which might have gone into the social network of rehabilitation, retraining, and the like, is gone.
I'm very much an "up by your bootstraps" kind of guy, but I see too many who don't have boots or even know where their feet are. I had to borrow money from my folks to pay last month's rent (because my UI hadn't kicked in after more than 2 months), and I felt like slime for going to family. The apprehension I had with the thought of "couch surfing" and toting my stuff everywhere was almost overwhelming. Homelessness is a cutthroat field nowadays. I thank G-d that this won't happen. But there's little work in my field--which tells me that I'm in the wrong field--and I'm looking at getting state money to train in a new field, and collecting unemployment for some time....
Call it karma or fate or whatever, but that guy pushing the cart could very well be me, and I know it every time I walk by. I wish I could help more of them.
I wish there were easy answers to all this. I wish I were smart enough to present a free market, libertarian solution, but I'm not. Maybe there isn't one-maybe the moral compunction of "I am my brother's keeper" will prevent US from ever exercising system-wide "tough love".
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My bottom line is that if one does not like seeing or dealing with "the homeless" one ought to not look at them and pass on by. Someone else will, in some manner, deal with them. If you want to go on record as advocating for legislating them out of your back yard and into someone else's, knock yourself out. Just be aware of the fact that until and unless Utopia is achieved they are going to be among us, so learn to deal with them in a way that reduces the amount of emotional discomfort you inflict on yourself regarding them.
stay safe.
skidmark
Don't get me wrong. I operate in a realistic world. It doesn't "pain" me to see these people roaming around. I'm not even saying I'm about "legislating them out of" my back yard therefore forcing them into someone else's. I'm saying there are certain incentives for them currently in our city. Take away those incentives and you will by function take away the reason for them being there.
If another person's back yard is more appealing to those people for some reason then that is the way it is. We can't and shouldn't be able to change the laws and legislation in someone else's back yard. If that is more appealing for any reason to nefarious characters, then it is up to the citizen's of that area to make it less appealing to them. I hope you aren't trying to throw a guilt trip in with your comment in the last paragraph. No offense, but it sure does smell like it.
"My bottom line is that if one does not like seeing or dealing with "the homeless" one ought to not look at them and pass on by. Someone else will, in some manner, deal with them."
Don't you see a problem with this? While I think I understand at what you're getting at, there are also people who don't really have a choice. For example, my friend, who has a restaurant doesn't have the luxury of ignoring them and passing by. He owns a restaurant where the guests are frequently harassed by bums. Or the bums sit at his outside tables, keeping them from being used by paying customers and, more likely, deterring clents from sitting altogether. He doesn't have the luxury of simply ignoring them. If he does, he loses income - more economic stimulation lost due to homeless simply occupying an area. He has to run them off.
He and other busness owners are understandably frustrated with the issue. They are losing money directly and indirectly simply because those people are there. Quite frankly, I'm amazed they aren't more motivated than they are to solve the problem. If I owned a business, I'd be actively leading a campaign to find some kind of solution.
*side note - I found out today that the place on the corner from my buddy's restaurant, a convenience store, is accepting food stamps for alcohol. I couldn't guess at how many laws are being broken there, but it sure explains why the bums are in there every day of the week and have a line waiting for them to open in the morning. Geez.
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Just when I think that my assumption of someone's personal situation is accurate, someone proves me wrong. I don't like homeless people and especially beggars/panhandlers, but I am not going to foist my assumptions of their situation upon them.
I avoid them because desperate people may make desperate decisions.
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Most of the beggars I have seen around Houston seem to be the type that you really don't need to be giving money to. About the only part I like to see if the Houston Chronicle hands out newspapers to some of them to sell on all the street corners. I'd much rather see that than just the panhandling. I know the city does have some rules they follow. They aren't allowed to go out into the streets. Most places with outdoor dining have it on their own property with fences.
I also give money to the Salvation Army. I figure they do a better job distributing the help to people who need it than I could.
I have also recently built up the 6 months saving mark that Dave Ramsey recommends. I don't plan on being in that position.
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or beggars may be the last remnants of proof that capitalism fails to provide for all elements of society. [personal note: No s**t, Sherlock!]
As opposed to what?
As opposed to I have no idea. The point I was struggling for is that capitalism never intended to provide for them. If anything, capitalism is the incentive to bootstrap your self up that ohers have suggested ought to be in operation.
Don't you see a problem with this? While I think I understand at what you're getting at, there are also people who don't really have a choice. For example, my friend, who has a restaurant doesn't have the luxury of ignoring them and passing by. He owns a restaurant where the guests are frequently harassed by bums. Or the bums sit at his outside tables, keeping them from being used by paying customers and, more likely, deterring clents from sitting altogether. He doesn't have the luxury of simply ignoring them.
Anybody who owns/leases property has certain "rights" to the control of that property. Were I a restaurant operator who had panhandlerrs sitting in my oudoor seats at my outdoor tables I would be telling them to order something or clear out. If they ordered but annoyed my other clients I'd tell them to leave because they were disruptive. In either case I have the option of calling the police for enforcing my decision to "evict" them. Let them deal with the cops!
For those who wish to give to private charities like the Sally Army, I say "Fine." For those that care to give nothing, I say "Fine." For those who want to avoid all of the homeless because "desperate people may make desperate decisions" I say "Fine" even though you seem to be lumping all of the rest of them in with what seems to be a minority. Just remember that some of those folks are never going to give up the lifestyle so we - you & me - are going to have to figure out how to get through life with them being around.
My solution -- if indeed it is one -- is to afflict those who are scammers, hypes and schemers; support those who I believe might benefit from what little I'm willing to do/give; and to try to act human-ly to those who are most dehumanized by the world at large. I take my risks with a knowing and willing mind. If I screw up I will not be blaming anyone but myself. YMMV.
Let me close with one bit of personal advice: a mere 6 months' worth of income is not a cushion against catastophe at all. Figure out how much you will need to support yourself and everyone else dependent on you for 6 months while you are laid up in an ICU or otherwise hemmoraging expenses like a drunken lord.
stay safe.
skidmark
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One's life is full of choices. I say do as the spirit moves you at the moment if you are not homeless, mentally ill, alcoholically or drug addled, employed or shall we say for the sake of brevity, a normal American and you encounter one of the above who is not a normal American.
If we are any or all of the above, then I say we go were it's warm and there are a lot of tourists. If we are in a colder clime, if we start walking about the middle of September, we could be in a warmer clime in a couple months at 20 miles a day. A good pair of shoes, a nice fairly large, legal folding knife, extra socks and a change of clothers rolled into a couple of blankets, rope, along with some large trash bags will do fine. Offering to do a bit of work for food would probably still get one by enroute.
I think if I were single I'd give it a try.
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What happened to the word "bum?"
Same thing that happened to words like vagrant, tramp, doper, drunk, wino, and hobo.
I WISH there was a way to identify good people who who are genuinely down on their luck, but IMHO most of the panhandlers on the streets locally are scammers; Austin, TX has more than their fair share of these. Thinking back, my "favorite" was a woman who was about 8 1/2 months pregnant . . . for at least two straight years. :O Runner-up was a guy holding up a sign that said "Why lie? I need a beer.!"
My least favorite was a bum who accosted us when I was walking with my mother and just wouldn't leave us alone. When he tried to grab my mother's shoulder (after we'd repeatedly rebuffed his aggressive panhandling) a shot of pepper spray in his face finally dissuaded him. :mad:
These panhandlers are like pigeons - quit feeding them, and they'll go elsewhere.
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Thinking back, my "favorite" was a woman who was about 8 1/2 months pregnant . . . for at least two straight years.
My favorite is in Kettleman City, CA. For fellow Californians, look for them if you ever pass through that way. Kettleman City is basically a food and gas stop at the intersection of Interstate 5 and HWY 41 -- gets a lot of traveler traffic.
I pass through there at least once or twice a month. At the gas station across from the McDonald's, there has been an old beater car parked out front with people holding a sign saying, "need gas to get home". I've seen the car for about the last 4-5 months. The "people needing help" have rotated between a Redneck couple that look like Louann and her husband from "King of the Hill", a single old lady, a bummish looking father with a teenage daughter dressed less than appropriately, and a Mexican couple.
It's like a panhandler clown car. I'm driving through there tomorrow and can't wait to see who pops out next.
There's a Sheriff's substation just down the road from where they park and I can't believe a deputy hasn't run them out of town yet.
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For example, my friend, who has a restaurant doesn't have the luxury of ignoring them and passing by. He owns a restaurant where the guests are frequently harassed by bums. Or the bums sit at his outside tables, keeping them from being used by paying customers and, more likely, deterring clents from sitting altogether. He doesn't have the luxury of simply ignoring them. If he does, he loses income - more economic stimulation lost due to homeless simply occupying an area. He has to run them off.
He and other busness owners are understandably frustrated with the issue. They are losing money directly and indirectly simply because those people are there. Quite frankly, I'm amazed they aren't more motivated than they are to solve the problem. If I owned a business, I'd be actively leading a campaign to find some kind of solution.
You know what really pisses me off? Your friend really can't help them with meals or leftovers, because any one of them could claim food poisoning and sue him out of business. This is not conjecture--this has happened. Good Samaritan laws do not protect him. The only way a food establishment can give away prepared food is to either leave it on top of the other garbage in the dumpster, or to sort of leave it on a corner anonymously. Or he can donate unprepared food to a soup kitchen--but with the economy the way it is restaurant owners are operating on the margins anyway.
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This.
It is more the norm than the exception (I think actually figures are probably just south of $400). I've lived plenty of places, including New York city, and in all of these cities, I could find a month of food, a rather comfortable warm apartment, and a suit for only a week of work at those rates. I've only ever concluded that for those that are not mentally ill, it must be a choice, either to keep doing drugs or to make more money than they'd make at a normal job. I haven't checked lately but I don't think there are many jobs paying $400/day for unskilled labor where you stand in one spot and don't do any lifting.
The mentally ill thing is always disturbing because of the political pawns that the mentally ill have become. Budget short-fall? Cut school buses and public mental health facilities. Put the sick people out in public. People don't want the mentally ill running in the streets, they'll go for the tax increase.
We should all keep in mind that, for the most part, these people do not keep that cash. As previously noted it'll go to whatever illicit organization that runs the panhandling in that city. At best a long-time independent panhandler will be paying "protection" money, at worst they'll no more than slaves. I even wonder if some instances of aggressive panhandling may not be the result of an underperforming individual that seriously needs to get some money before his handler shows up.
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Let me close with one bit of personal advice: a mere 6 months' worth of income is not a cushion against catastophe at all. Figure out how much you will need to support yourself and everyone else dependent on you for 6 months while you are laid up in an ICU or otherwise hemmoraging expenses like a drunken lord.
Not my sole means of help, just some extra insurance against loss of job or other stuff. 6 months cushion is just a cushion and isn't meant to cover any and every circumstance. That is why people like Ramsey just call it a rainy day fund. You can't prepare for every possible thing that could happen, you just do what you can with what you have.
To truly cover what you mention would require 6 or 7 figures or more which is really not possible for me or most anyone else. If you go crazy worrying about that stuff, you won't ever start with the smaller and more likely possibilities. 6 months if far, far better than 1 week or in debt to credit cards.
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I generally prefer to give my money and any time to organizations which help the homeless or those down on their luck. They have the policy, procedure, and resources to screen people and determine those in need from those who figure it is the easiest way for a couple of bucks. I do not have these resources and would rather my money be used wisely and to do the most good. I will occasionally give directly to beggars but it is seldom.
In general if you ask me and give a prepared sob story, pester me, bother me, or are walking around blocking traffic going window to window, you wont get a penny from me. These are the types most likely to be simply out for an easy meal ticket and are doing it by choice, not by need, IME. If they are truly in need there are plenty of food banks and charities that can help them should I be wrong.
But the man who sits quietly in the median or off to the side of the sidewalk, holding his sign and not bothering a soul and happy for whatever he should happen to recieve? Him I am happy to hand a few bucks.
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I generally don't give to the homeless or homeless associations. I have specific charities to which I donate. NRA, EFF, etc. I'm not opposed to kicking a couple bucks to the Salvation Army, but I won't lie, it's not my first priority.
Unfortunately, a large number of homeless people are either addicts (alcohol or drugs) or mentally unstable. Neither particularly want actual help in improving their situation. There are a large number of legitimately down on their luck folks that really do just need a helping hand. Problem is, I don't know how to effectively help those people and not the previous two groups. If a friend or associate needs help, I can, have and will help them as much as I possibly can. Heck, if it's anyone that I reasonably know is not conning me, I'll lend a hand to varying degrees. I just don't like tossing my money down a hole where it will not be doing any good. It is not only a waste, but it's actively taking from folks that can do good. When I donate to a specific group, I know what I'm getting for my money. I'm hesitant to give money to groups where I can't somewhat accurately gauge the impact.
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I'll donate to the Salvation Army, or a church if I think they've got a worthy charity. Going straight to the end user? Nah.
I have done the "At least he's honest" donation before to a bum with a sign that stated he needed the money to get drunk. Truth in advertising :lol:
Besides, this thread comes at the perfect time of year to get my Scrooge on:
``If they would rather die,'' said Scrooge, ``they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population!"
Wife and I just watched the Muppet version, Awesome :cool:
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Topic: What is your take on the homeless?
They taste like chicken.
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My take on the homeless is that they shouldn't be called "homeless". Homelessness does not describe their problem. Back during B41's administration, since the Berlin Wall hadn't fallen, and we hadn't invented AGW, the MSM (all there was, at the time) ginned up the "Homeless" crisis. Tens of gazillions of Dickensian noble poor, roaming the street, y'understand. I asked by (then) bleeding heart sister, a career bureaucrat (sp?) at HUD, whe we didn't just GIVE these people houses or condos. Her response was illuminating. "We can't do that. They don't have the skills needed to manage a home". Upon probing this thought, she reported that there were public housing tenants that didn't understand that the beds go in the small rooms, clothes go in a the closet, and you cook in that room with the stove and sink.
The problem with many, if not most, folks on the street is not homelessness. It's a lack of life skills, whether due to mental illness or substance abuse, poor childhood/pre-natal nutrition, or what have you. You could give every one of them a 3BR, 2BA house tomorrow, and the problem would reappear and persist within a month.
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Her response was illuminating. "We can't do that. They don't have the skills needed to manage a home". Upon probing this thought, she reported that there were public housing tenants that didn't understand that the beds go in the small rooms, clothes go in a the closet, and you cook in that room with the stove and sink.
This seems very odd to me...can you shed any light on it for us?
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They don't have the skills needed to manage a home". Upon probing this thought, she reported that there were public housing tenants that didn't understand that the beds go in the small rooms, clothes go in a the closet, and you cook in that room with the stove and sink.
The problem with many, if not most, folks on the street is not homelessness. It's a lack of life skills, whether due to mental illness or substance abuse, poor childhood/pre-natal nutrition, or what have you. You could give every one of them a 3BR, 2BA house tomorrow, and the problem would reappear and persist within a month.
I agree with this^^^
Not too long ago the local news featured a segment on getting homeless people on their feet; they were being taught how to do mundane tasks such as filling out a check, setting an alarm clock, using a calendar, etc. It's mind-boggling to those of us who grew up with literate and responsible parents (semi-responsible in my case) that these skills aren't universal, but they're not. =|
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I ignore them. I have never given a dime to them. They choose to be what they are and probably make more money than I do panhandling. I am not a liberal so I don't feel guilty for what they made of themselves.
Will I ever end up in that situation, no. My home is paid for and I don't owe anyone a dime. I start collecting social security next month. I retire in March, hopefully. I will be moving out of the city to a small town close to my camp about 125 miles away. I may live at my camp but the wife says no. She wants a regular house to live in. chris3
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I agree with this^^^
Not too long ago the local news featured a segment on getting homeless people on their feet; they were being taught how to do mundane tasks such as filling out a check, setting an alarm clock, using a calendar, etc. It's mind-boggling to those of us who grew up with literate and responsible parents (semi-responsible in my case) that these skills aren't universal, but they're not. =|
I don't think it is a matter of skills. It is a complete inability or more likely a refusal to learn.
Do you think all young adults are taught everything they need to know to live on their own? Most kids lack one thing or another, but they figure it out and learn to get by. Skills are learned by those who want to learn. Even animals learn what they need to do to get by.
I refuse to believe that ALL or even most of those "homeless" are in that situation because the can't learn those skills. They just don't want to. They live a life completely without responsibility and they don't have to. Those who want to learn or want to get out of that situation don't stay homeless very long. I seen and heard of too many of them who just don't want to do anything else.
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I don't give money. Somebody already mentioned that beggars are like pigeons - the more you give them, the more they come back. They likely won't spend much of it on food anyway. If you want to help people in need, donate food and clothes to Salvation Army. The money you give directly to beggars likely goes to local handlers and/or drug dealers.
On a related note, the aggressive beggars are the ones that really piss me off. I am a big guy, so when I say no, they take off, but I can see how older women would be half-scared /half-guilted into giving money. That is not right. There is a dangerously gray area there between begging and robbery.
Finally, if you still feel bad enough to help, but don't want them in your area, why not donate to a kitchen or a Salvation Army post in an adjacent area? That way, the word would spread that the adjacent area has more resources, and the beggars might move there.
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What is your take on the homeless?
I generally try not to take anything from the homeless, but some days they make more than I do in a day. =D
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Call me crazy, but I somehow doubt that someone who has lost their home due to job loss would respond by becoming a beggar.
yup, 2 or 3 months ago, my motorcycle got towed at the same time my messenger bag got stolen with about 75 bucks. I currently am a motorcycle messenger and my company paid the fee and rescued my bike but took the entire thing ( near 400$ for 2 1/2 days ) out of my check. I was paying rent by the week in a SRO and had to vacate I spent 2 days "homeless" which consisted of hanging around till 4am, then nursing a cup of coffee at an all night diner and napping after work at one of the many AA mtngs around SF. it was hell. I hated even letting people know because I was so embarrassed...gotta go, on a borrowed laptop.
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I generally try not to take anything from the homeless, but some days they make more than I do in a day. =D
Really, I think this might be a stretch. The most successful bum I've ever come across (the guy outside wisie's sandwich/grocery in Georgetown for you NoVa/DC people) made about $10 an hour, and that's with hordes of rich and sympathetic/drunk students passing by every day and not wanting to bother with change in their pockets.
Homeless people get robbed/beaten/sick/dead far more frequently than the rest of us. The people who end up on the streets normally have some kind of mental illness that prevents them from crashing with anyone who is normal enough to pay rent.
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Really, I think this might be a stretch. The most successful bum I've ever come across (the guy outside wisie's sandwich/grocery in Georgetown for you NoVa/DC people) made about $10 an hour, and that's with hordes of rich and sympathetic/drunk students passing by every day and not wanting to bother with change in their pockets.
Homeless people get robbed/beaten/sick/dead far more frequently than the rest of us. The people who end up on the streets normally have some kind of mental illness that prevents them from crashing with anyone who is normal enough to pay rent.
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_3_panhandling.html
People’s generosity encourages the begging. About four out of ten Denver residents gave to panhandlers, city officials determined several years ago, anteing up an estimated $4.6 million a year. Anecdotal surveys by journalists and police, and even testimony by panhandlers themselves, suggest that begging can yield anywhere from $20 to $100 a day—though police in Coos Bay, Oregon, found that local panhandlers were taking in as much as $300 a day in a Wal-Mart parking lot. “A panhandler could make thirty to forty thousand dollars a year, tax-free money,” Baker says. In Memphis, a local FOX News reporter, Jason Carter, donned old clothes and hit the streets earlier this year, earning about $10 an hour. “Just the quasi-appearance of being homeless filled my cup,” Carter observed. That all the money is beyond the tax man’s clutches adds to the allure of professional panhandling.
Keep in mind that while they're making all this tax free money, they're also sponging tens of millions in public aid, free medical care etc. Try walking in a neighborhood with bad panhandling as a small woman: the aggressive tactics you'll see are basically robbery, but because they're "just asking" it's hard to prosecute them. I'm also thinking of the memorable time a bum threatened to kill me for refusing to buy him booze...
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Ooh poor babies, my heart bleeds for them. Just reg'lar folk who (through no fault, bad planning, or lack of preparation on their part) are forced to be beggars. Reminds me of all the people making excuses for urban youths and their crimes...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008968918_webbeggarsbash01m.html
Oregon man seriously injured in panhandler assault in Pioneer Square
An Oregon man was hospitalized with a serious head injury this week after he was assaulted trying to retrieve a necklace a panhandler snatched from him in Pioneer Square.
By Christine Clarridge
Seattle Times staff reporter
An out-of-town visitor was sent to the hospital with a serious head injury this week after he was assaulted while trying to retrieve a necklace that had been snatched off his body by a panhandler in Pioneer Square.
According to Seattle police, the 25-year-old Oregon man was near the intersection of Occidental Avenue South and Yesler Way around 1:40 a.m. on Tuesday when he was approached by a panhandler asking for money.
The panhandler grabbed the chain from the victim's neck and assaulted the victim when he tried to retrieve it, according to police.
When police arrived, they found the victim unconscious and bleeding on the ground. He was taken to Harborview Medical Center.
His assailant remains at large. Police describe him as a black male who is about 5-feet-7 and 175 pounds and who was last seen in a puffy black jacket, dark pants and white shoes. They ask anybody who saw the assault or has information about it to call 206-684-5550.
The incident is not the first of its kind.
Late last month, a man called police to say that he had been punched in the back of the head when he refused to give money to a beggar.
According to the March 20 police report, the victim was on Blanchard Avenue in Belltown at around 2 a.m. when he was approached by a panhandler.
When the victim refused to give, "he was pushed to the ground by the male and then punched in the back of the head," according to police.
That man was transported to Virginia Mason Hospital with abrasions and a "large lump" on his head.
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Yeah, bums have definitely been known to commit crimes. But that doesn't mean when they're sitting out on the streets they're getting rich and living an easy life. That part of the story, about the bum who gets rich with his coffee mug, is mainly fantasy.
Violent and unpredictable behaviour can come along with many types of mental illness and especially with drug problems. Not too surprising.
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Yeah, bums have definitely been known to commit crimes. But that doesn't mean when they're sitting out on the streets they're getting rich and living an easy life. That part of the story, about the bum who gets rich with his coffee mug, is mainly fantasy.
Violent and unpredictable behaviour can come along with many types of mental illness and especially with drug problems. Not too surprising.
Still needs to be dealt with. Problem is, it's harder to track bums who commit crimes as they don't have nearly as much to lose as most folks. No job, permanent address or whatnot. And they know this. Nothing to lose means less consequences for their actions. Which is why bums or crazies get a hair more attention from me when I'm within their doughnut of attention (roughly 25m out). I keep a hand free and near whatever makes a handy weapon. My CCW, a pen, whatever.
I'm a relatively big and ugly guy, so I rarely have issues. Which doesn't make me feel warm and squishy, it's annoying. The scum of the earth prefer to prey on the weak, the small and the timid.
My main annoyance is often not direct costs of "petty crime" but the secondary costs. Stealing some CD's or change from a car has a 'direct cost' of a couple bucks to maybe $50. But it can cost ten times that amount to replace a broken window, repair any interior damage, vacuum out the interior of glass, etc. Plus the emotional costs, which I very much consider quite real.
I agree with Oleg. The least of my property is worth more than a criminal's life. I understand and respect that the law disagrees. I fully intend to follow the laws of my state on usage of force. Doesn't mean I have to philosophically like it.
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from Cmdr GraveOz(sp?)
This seems very odd to me...can you shed any light on it for us?
Did the intervening posts describe it? If you're a teenaged mother, who was raised by someone who didn't actually "keep house" as we say, never saw a meal actually cooked or saw a load of laundry done, never spent time with "normal" families that did this, have an IQ one or two standard deviations below average, then yeah, you might not realize that clothes go in the closet, that people rise before they would prefer, regularly show up at the appointed hour in the appointed place to perform tasks that others will direct them in and pay them for, et endless cetera.
Sad, sad, sad.
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Those types of assaults are what worry me. In my first post, I mentioned that I had been chased. I was with three other people and we had refused to give a bum a handout. That guy chased us, cussing, for a block and a half. It had me worrying enough to put everyone else in front of me and I was getting ready to go with this guy. Thankfully, he finally let off and turned around. But it was getting ridiculous there for a minute. I was thinking, "This bum is really going to assault us for not giving him money."
No one made any jokes or made fun of him or provoked him in any way. But this kind of thing happens, and you need to be ready to deal with it in some way.
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I was actually "homeless" a few times, never ever begged.
I would find some place to sleep for the night or more likely stay up all night and nap during the day.It happened because I was just plain smoking to much weed and drinking to much.
That was long long ago, and have been clean and sober for over 14 years now.
Very recently it happened a for two days, as soon as the holidays are over I will A:
looking for a second job B: think real hard about learning some new skills to apply to a new job.
edited to add, I was living in a run down hotel in SF and saw my neighbor on the street. He asked for "spare change because he was homeless" I told him he wasn't homeless and he became quite indignant, insisting he was homeless . I told hime he lived at the Golden Eagle hotel on Broadway room 41 and he was shocked....I told him I asked him to be quiet one night because I worked in the morning and then he wanted spare change because "I had a job" welfare paid for his room, work paid for mine right next door.
A co worker at a security job I had after 9/11 told me he panhandled a bus ticket to SF, went to a homeless shelter and they got him the same security gig I interviewed for PLUS they paid 50% of his rent, he had a nicer place then I did! All because I hate the social services system and he didn't mind staying in a shelter.
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Some of you need this sign. Some of you need to relax a bit. Some of you ......
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi176.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw186%2Fvaskidmark%2Ffun%2520pictures%2Fa321.gif&hash=8f689587adcbfef2ffa1a78e169b881bd9b4cdd5)
stay safe.
skidmark
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In the town where I work, I have complained to the manager of the Walmart store about the always-long lines at the registers. He informed me that the problem is not that Walmart wants to keep the lines long; it is that they cannot get enough employees. All that they ask is that the employees have a relatively clean criminal record and pass a drug test. The store doesn't even get to see the applications of those who don't pass those two requirements. They don't see enough applications at this particular store to fill their open positions.
I suspect that McDonald's hiring requirements are even less stringent.
I have given way too much money to homeless in my life. 20 dollars to a family standing on the side of the road begging for gas money to get home from Oklahoma to Michigan only to find the same family on a different corner just a few months later. I'm sure the 20 dollars just bought some meth or that is one stupid family. I succumb to my own feelings of guilt for my limited success in life and give when it is clearly not necessary. In fact, it is almost never necessary.
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I used to allocate $5 per year to beggars. After reading this thread, it is now $0.
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I used to allocate $5 per year to beggars. After reading this thread, it is now $0.
Just doin' my part to make the world go 'round. Just doin' my part. :P
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I succumb to my own feelings of guilt for my limited success in life and give when it is clearly not necessary. In fact, it is almost never necessary.
My friend, rest assured that it isn't necessary. Ever. To be honest. Few things are.
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I'm trying to help the homeless by not being one of them =|