Author Topic: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.  (Read 13116 times)

longeyes

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2010, 07:46:53 PM »
Yeah, losing illegals is bad for business, bad for the teachers and adminstrators.  Uh-huh.  Imagine how bad for business losing the drug trade would be.  And think of the all the lost jobs in the welfare establishment.  Yes, when you build a society on a false foundation things do get complicated.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2010, 07:57:31 PM »
5% of 23.1 Billion is $1.16 Billion.

Your numbers estimate they made $3.33 Billion. So half of everything they earned goes to Mexico. (minimum estimate)


even allowing your basic numbers as good that math is beyond fuzzy    how does 1.16 become 1/2 of 3.33?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2010, 09:27:45 PM »
Now do you understand why Bush and other Republicans had no problem with illegal immigration? Because some businesses make money off of them. Good money.

Quote
"We work outside under the sun during the really hot weather," said Sanchez, who made $9.80 an hour. "This work doesn't pay very well"
(Arizona minimum wage is 7.25)
 :lol:
No worries about this guy not accepting our culture. He'll be striking for higher wages before you know it.  =D

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2010, 10:27:18 PM »
so you feel working in the arizona sun is a minimum wage job?  is it air conditioned in your office?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Balog

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2010, 10:36:31 PM »
so you feel working in the arizona sun is a minimum wage job?  is it air conditioned in your office?

I made minimum wage ($5.25/hour at the time iirc) working in the Arizona sun, and I didn't feel the need to whine like a little girl. I also didn't need to steal anyone's ID (ever wonder why AZ is the ID theft capital of America?) or avoid taxes on it. But, you know, if the poor baby doesn't like it, I suggest he go right the hell back to Mexico.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2010, 10:51:08 PM »
so you feel working in the arizona sun is a minimum wage job?  is it air conditioned in your office?

I bucked hay bales, and inspected pea crops for aphids, in eastern Washington summer temps of 90-100 degree weather at higher elevation than AZ farmland.  At anything from minimum wage ($5.15 back in the mid 90's in WA, I think) up to about $7 an hour.

And paid taxes on it.

He's overpaid at $9.80.

Especially since he doesn't pay taxes, and the farmer doesn't pay the payroll tax either.

One other thing:

I used to work in the same industry as migrant workers:  Agriculture.  See above note about bucking hay bales and inspecting pea crops.  I worked in a vegetable cannery, I drove a pea combine, I did all sorts of ag jobs during my HS and college summers.

They pick up and move ALL THE TIME.  They have a migratory cycle they follow that is as predictable as the crop harvest schedule.  They come up through CA and the various farm valleys there, up through OR, and peak in WA or BC, then come back south with the potato crops in ID, down to AZ for lettuce/pecans/walnuts/cotton, and back home when the cycle hits a down spell.

I have no empathy for these people, because the article is inherently sensational.  These illegals, if they work in ag, have been involved in this migratory cycle for their entire work criminal lives.  You can't work ag and stay in one place, and make a living.

Maybe we do need to make it easier for peasant Mexicans to come here to do ag work.  Tax 'em, only allow the people ACTUALLY DOING THE AG WORK TO COME (no wives or kids, no pregnant women to lay anchor babies, etc), and make sure they GTFO when their SHORT TERM ag work visa expires.  Ag work visas should only be good for a month or so under such a plan, with no extensions, and applications for a new one must be made outside of the US.  No drivers' licenses, no vehicle registrations.  Operate it like a farm work camp.
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makattak

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2010, 10:54:01 PM »
5% of 23.1 Billion is $1.16 Billion.

Your numbers estimate they made $3.33 Billion. So half of everything they earned goes to Mexico. (minimum estimate)


even allowing your basic numbers as good that math is beyond fuzzy    how does 1.16 become 1/2 of 3.33?

Woops, good catch. 1/3. I will so amend.
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Grandpa Shooter

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2010, 10:59:22 PM »
I have the feeling that a lot of non Hispanic folks are going to have to do their own laundry, cut their own grass, clean their own pools and some non Hispanic folks will be working at fast food outlets, in local hotels and resorts, and cooking in Chinese restaurants.

I don't see a big change coming for Az with the flight of the ILLEGALS. If anything the LEGAL immigrants won't be competing with the illegals for jobs and their standard of living will go up.  Maybe just maybe we won't have entire neighborhoods of slums with music blasting at all hours, chairs in a circle in the front yard with a cooler next to it, and a half dozen vehicles up on blocks on what used to be the front yard.  Wouldn't that be nice?

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2010, 11:27:28 PM »
so you feel working in the arizona sun is a minimum wage job?  is it air conditioned in your office?
Whining about pay that is significantly better than minimum wage when you have no skills amuses me greatly.

MillCreek

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2010, 11:36:49 PM »
AZ, did you go to Wazzu?
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2010, 12:53:43 AM »
AZ, did you go to Wazzu?

Nope.  UPS in Tacoma.  I'm a Wa-Hi graduate from Walla Walla, though.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2010, 02:36:52 AM »
if hes getting 9.80 its cause the farmer can't get the locals to work for that or less.

he the farmer and the apparent unwillingness of "natives"folks to work for less, or in most cases at all,  determine payscale. and the ac works good?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2010, 10:00:11 AM »
1. The "Working Class Hero" drek and "so's you work in an office with AC" baloney is a rather poor argument.  The reason folks work outside and get low wages is because they bring few/no skills to the table(0). 

2. Anyone who was in the infantry or likely most other specialties in the armed forces has worked as hard or harder as any illegal alien working outside.  Likely for less per hour.  And the illegal alien can quit with few repercussions.  The enlisted man is essentially an indentured servant and will be tossed in federal pound-'em-in-the-*expletive deleted*ss prison if they leave their job prematurely.

3. Some who now work in the luxury of AC have paid their dues, working some of those outside jobs(1) and then going on and obtaining education, training,or credentials that employers want to pay better $$$ for and keep them happy in a workplace with AC.  The whining of those who did not sacrifice and did not practice self-discipline in the past to reap greater rewards in the future is not something many are particularly sympathetic to. 






(0) Note: low wages and working outside are not inextricably linked.  Landscape architect and fast-food slinger are two that don't fit.

(1) Or inside!  Inside a warehouse, inside a trailer outside the warehouse, with cardboard dust filling the air...makes one wish for a nice landsaping job.
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HankB

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2010, 10:05:34 AM »
I have the feeling that a lot of non Hispanic folks are going to have to do their own laundry, cut their own grass . . . 
Uhhh . . . I'm not Hispanic, and I'm doing that now . . . along with washing & waxing my own cars, cleaning my own bathrooms, vacuuming my own carpets, washing my own dishes, and a host of other things that don't require any particular skill set.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2010, 10:22:14 AM »
the latino guy still doesn't set his payscale  its set by the market. and some of you gotta make up your mind.  is he making too much?  or driving down the payscale of the natives? if the farmer could get folk for less he would   but the texting generation doesn't roll like that
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2010, 10:32:12 AM »
the latino guy still doesn't set his payscale  its set by the market. and some of you gotta make up your mind.  is he making too much?  or driving down the payscale of the natives? if the farmer could get folk for less he would   but the texting generation doesn't roll like that

Oh, my mind is quite made up.

Just because his pay is above minimum wage, doesn't mean that he's getting paid according to market forces.

This farmer is offsetting the hidden costs of a worker by neglecting to pay payroll tax or withholding the employee's income tax.  The worker is hitting the ER for free healthcare on my dime.  He ain't paying for roads and infrastructure.  His $9.80 would actually cost the farmer about $15 if he hired a legitimate worker.  His $9.80 would cost the farmer about $15 even if we had a program for farm work camps that bussed in Mexican ag workers for month-long stays and collected proper taxes to reflect the drain they have on our infrastructure.

The farmer is cheating.

The Mexican is cheating.

I despise 'em both equally.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2010, 10:39:50 AM »
can the farmer get "natives" to do the work?  apparently not  hence we have supply and demand working  there is a demand for labor
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2010, 10:43:18 AM »
can the farmer get "natives" to do the work?  apparently not  hence we have supply and demand working  there is a demand for labor

You just don't get it, do you?

The farmer is cheating the system of the infrastructure costs of ANY PERSON living in the US.  It's the same thing that pisses people off about Wall Street and Big Auto bail-outs:  Privatize gain, socialize loss.

The loss being socialized is the cost of police, roads, hospitals, education, auto insurance, etc.
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Balog

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2010, 10:44:44 AM »
can the farmer get "natives" to do the work?  apparently not  hence we have supply and demand working  there is a demand for labor

Bullsh*t. The farmer could, but then he'd have to pay taxes, have insurance etc. You realize you're basically arguing that farmers cheating on their taxes is a good thing, right?
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2010, 10:47:42 AM »
Hell, if I was jobless right now I'd pack up my truck with camping gear to stay out somewhere a week at a time, bring my dog with me, and go work 12 hour days at some farmer's field wherever I could get a gig.  Stay for a week or so, come home and pay bills and rest for a day, re-stock the truck and head back out for another week.

I know ag work pretty well for a city boy, and I'm fairly certain I could get more than the $9.80 mentioned above once I proved myself.
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Tallpine

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2010, 10:52:09 AM »
Some of those jobs aren't exactly "no skill".

True, it's not the sort of thing you go to school for - you just have to learn as you go.

Geeze, in Billings you can't even get a job mowing grass unless you have documented "experience."   Taking care of your own yard or your parents' for the last 45 years doesn't count  ;/

Sheepherder jobs in MT are going begging because you have to have "experience."
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Tallpine

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2010, 10:54:38 AM »
Hell, if I was jobless right now I'd pack up my truck with camping gear to stay out somewhere a week at a time, bring my dog with me, and go work 12 hour days at some farmer's field wherever I could get a gig.  Stay for a week or so, come home and pay bills and rest for a day, re-stock the truck and head back out for another week.

I know ag work pretty well for a city boy, and I'm fairly certain I could get more than the $9.80 mentioned above once I proved myself.

If we lose our place, I'm seriously thinking of becoming a "saddle tramp."   =|

At least my horses can eat alongside the road, but you have to buy gas for the pickup.

If you were a farmer/rancher, who would you hire - the guy in the shiny pickup or the guy riding a horse and leading a pack horse  ???
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richyoung

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2010, 02:41:14 PM »
^^^^ I'm sorry, I don't see your quoted data to support your assumptions.  

People pay sales tax, gas tax, excise taxes on goods and services and property tax is factored into your rent or mortgage.  I note that the illegal immigrant quoted in the article paid income tax.

I have no idea how much income is personally consumed and spent in the US as opposed to remittances back to their native country.  Clearly at least some portion is spent in the US.

As to your final point, I would expand that to include probably most of the population on welfare.  Based solely on my own limited and anecdotal observations here in Washington, the illegal immigrant population seems to work more and harder than many of the native-born population who rely upon welfare.

Perhaps without illegals working at artificially low wages, the pay rate will rise to the point that the welfare leeches will get off their butts and work the jobs - especially if we cut off the welfare checks....
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Firethorn

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2010, 03:11:34 PM »
Perhaps without illegals working at artificially low wages, the pay rate will rise to the point that the welfare leeches will get off their butts and work the jobs - especially if we cut off the welfare checks....

Just what my thought was.  Fast food joints up here were having to bust $14/hour to get workers at one point.  Haven't seen the ads lately, so maybe that's changed.


longeyes

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Re: Arizona losing illegals and business and school are whining.
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2010, 04:02:33 PM »
The issue isn't wages, it's the rule of law, along with sovereignty, citizenship, and culture.  I'm not interested in whether illegals are paid "fairly" if they are working illegally.

This is a problem largely created by the white upper-middle class, the ones that love their nannies, gardeners, yard diggers, and wall-builders.  They have traded America's future for their careers and "quality time."  Do they care if their kids grew up listening to Spanish rather than English, or if the country goes broke paying the ancillary bills of illegal laborers?  Apparently not.
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