Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: K Frame on September 01, 2017, 08:42:57 AM
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About the potential legal ramifications of tarting up your gun and then shooting someone with it, justified or not.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27448-Punisher-Skull-on-a-Self-Defense-Firearm
I've got to ask though... who in the frick puts something like that on a defensive gun? Well, other than the dudes who thinks that it's a perfect compliment to their size 76 waist camo pants...
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Yeah, I've been watching that as well.
I get wanting a cosmetically appealing gun, they don't all have to be "srs bzness", but non-functional adjustments to carry guns should be carefully considered. Anything that implies "I have violent tendencies" or "I fantasize about killing" needs to be dropped. Too much of a liability...
Now, if you want to tart up your range toy, have at it.
Chris
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I 100% agree with Chris, tart up your range toy, but leave your defensive weapon alone.
The poster at the bottom of the first page hits the nail on the head: My take on it that humans are unpredictable, and there's no set answer - and it's more about probabilities and risk management. The best I can come up with is that there will be a % of a chance that it might affect prejudice of an investigator, DA or Jury - no definitive yes or no because everyone is different.
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Harumph. No advice about gold-plating, or bedazzling my firearms. Ain't they know I be pimpin?
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See, I'm not even inclined to tart up my range guns.
First off, that's not me, but secondly, I don't think I'd want something like that even appearing in photos of "my arsenal!" that might be shown to a jury.
"Sure, ladies and gentlemen, he might have used a plain jane .38 Special, but in his arsenal he has a TARTED UP HYPER SLAUGHTERAUGHTOR O'DEATH MACHINE!"
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If they start going through your safe at home, then the mere fact you have an "arsenal" is going to screw you.
They're going to have a hard time making the case that my "fabulously purple" kentucky pistol is indicative of violent tendencies. Maybe violence against good taste, but not against man. :D
Anyway, "tarting up" takes a variety of forms. It can be custom grips for your revolver, engraving, custom stock on a rifle, or Punisher logos on your AR. Have you seen some of the dedicated benchrest rigs?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrycountygunclub.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F08%2FDSCF0008.jpg&hash=37438a35d3592b35e1916f6ff369f9440d878ad3)
ZOMG! Flames, not only is he a gun murderer, but an arsonist as well! ;)
Chris
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"Anyway, "tarting up" takes a variety of forms."
REALLY?
I never knew! I thought waffle patterning your blue stock was a factory option...
:rofl:
"Tarting" infers "enhancements" that are done in poor taste.
Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but grips, engraving, things that actually become a part of the gun and which are by and large traditional, aren't tarting.
Painting the stock to your Ruger blue and when waffle patterning it?
Well, maybe not really tarting, but damn, you're starting to hang out on sketchy street corners at night when you do that *expletive deleted*it.
I don't do any of that.
I don't like stainless steel, I don't even like engraving.
Perhaps the most decorative stamp I have on any of my guns is the set of faux Ivory grips I have for my Model 28, and the deep red highlighted wood grips you gave me for my one J frame.
I guess you could call my guns Amish.
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"I guess you could call my guns Amish."
That's hilarious, Mike. All of my carry guns are either stock or decidedly old school. My 1911 is a 70 Series Colt government model. The only changes to it are a set of King-Tappan sights, a Pachmayr rubberized MSH, and cheap but very functional grip panels.
The way I see it, the downside of Punisher grips and the like is low probability but high consequence. There is no upside.
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The way I see it, the downside of Punisher grips and the like is low probability but high consequence. There is no upside.
I agree. I also carry a 1911. (I rotate among three 1911s.) Even the ones reserved for range duty aren't "tarted up." I may change grips, and I don't like arched mainspring housings so those get changed to the straight/flat type but, other than that, I keep 'em stock. I confess to liking photos of blued 1911s wearing stag stocks, but I just can't bring myself to buy a set. I know I'd like them for awhile, and then I'd have to go back to double diamond checkered Walnut or Rosewood.
But Punisher grips? Or skull and crossbones? Yeah -- low probability, but I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of the odds and have to sit there while my lawyer tries to explain to a jury that I'm not really a homicidal vigilante, I just play one in my fantasies -- errr, no, no, that's NOT what I meant, I meant, ummm, errr ... Punisher grips aren't "tarting up," they're stupid.
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I tarted up 2 of mine. One for accuracy and function:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2F10-45L_After.jpg&hash=8298f2a30248189b1ce4da0b6ec40a4f00b0bbb6)
and one for kicks:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2F2013070808.jpg&hash=8a78010ac81c5c6feceaa556f6a5569ece987f25)
Neither are "carry" guns although both will make an appearance should (https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2FHumor%2Fshtf.jpg&hash=f28fce453be31369c776c1e1c843005a526a7fdc) :rofl:
:old:
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Juries hate people who use un-pc guns.
Stupid, but absolutely true. If you shoot a criminal with an AR-15 it will bias a jury against you if it goes to trial. A fudd gun plays a lot better with a jury:
Here's a study about this topic:
http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2009/09/will-it-hurt-me-in-court-weapons-issues-and-the-fears-of-the-legally-armed-citizen/
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I, too, am one to go in for only minimalist modifications on carry guns. Talon rubber grips on my 2 XDS'. (Love 'em.) Different grips, and painting the front sight on my snubbies. Other guns, similar tweaks. My G19 got a little more, but I've never yet carried it, and the changes should be defensible, if necessary. And I'm not at all inclined to garish decoration.
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Don't forget your holster, BTW.
Found this in a link-wander from that pistol-forum thread:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmodernserviceweapons.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F03%2F10424576_200385616996290_685516295_n.jpg&hash=0525d0405a7ed2152aa21fb96e2393d479ea6d18)
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Juries hate people who use un-pc guns.
Stupid, but absolutely true. If you shoot a criminal with an AR-15 it will bias a jury against you if it goes to trial. A fudd gun plays a lot better with a jury:
Here's a study about this topic:
http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2009/09/will-it-hurt-me-in-court-weapons-issues-and-the-fears-of-the-legally-armed-citizen/
You know, that study makes my home defense arquebus look better and better all the time...
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I tarted up 2 of mine. One for accuracy and function:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2F10-45L_After.jpg&hash=8298f2a30248189b1ce4da0b6ec40a4f00b0bbb6)
and one for kicks:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2F2013070808.jpg&hash=8a78010ac81c5c6feceaa556f6a5569ece987f25)
Mighty proud thundersticks you have there, English...
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OK, no Punisher skull . . . how about this treatment?
(https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.snwxRA2DtNba7foJpscGJQEsC7&pid=15.1&P=0&w=288&h=181)
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2FHelloKittyAR.jpg&hash=73e5a2e84f5655b19ec20f3dacfbd03df9e506ef)
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.glamguns.com%2Fhk47.jpg&hash=eda0e222011903db32ede0451fd51d251188caf2)
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I have three carry guns.
A) 1911 only mods are thinner, rubberized grips with finger grooves that I purchased from Monkeyleg awhile back. Unless you're "of the gun" or know 1911's you wouldn't notice anything different. (No Zombies, Punisher Skulls, or Killdozers.)
B) P227 that is bone stock.
C) Ruger LCR in 38sp +p, (but I only carry non +p rounds. It's snappy enough with regular .38Spc rounds) For when the two larger pistols could become conspicuous. It has Crimson Trace grips. It was a gift and came that way.
I have thought about buying a "Killdozer" Lower every now and again. ;) ;)
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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you. Ezekiel 25:17.
So I guess I'll give up on having this engraved on the barrel of my 642.
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So I guess I'll give up on having this engraved on the barrel of my 642.
Nope, you're good... They'd need an electron microscope to read it.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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A) 1911 only mods are thinner, rubberized grips with finger grooves that I purchased from Monkeyleg awhile back. Unless your "of the gun" or know 1911's you wouldn't notice anything different. (No Zombies, Punisher Skulls, or Killdozers.)
Pearce Grips? That's my first choice for carry duty.
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I have three carry guns.
A) 1911 only mods are thinner, rubberized grips with finger grooves that I purchased from Monkeyleg awhile back. Unless your "of the gun" or know 1911's you wouldn't notice anything different. (No Zombies, Punisher Skulls, or Killdozers.)
Pearce Grips? That's my first choice for carry duty.
Pachmayr and Hogue also make that style, if I remember right. I don't care for the rubber w/ finger groove style (tried them on some other, non-1911, guns).
Still haven't settled on a just right grip for my 1911. I saw at Midway some WWII repro, full checkered plastic grips that I want to try.
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Sounds like the grips I ran on my 1911 Norinco
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2FNorinco45ACP.jpg&hash=58eac37d64e1fdc532ec9f8411b71ac39f3d49c6)
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I run Pachmayers on my Model 59 S&W
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2FS%26amp%3BW_Mod59.jpg&hash=57ac9d58fbac7dde1c49e19241bf98db06135b9d)
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Rogers Combat grips on Dad's (RIP) Model 10-8 S&W that he put on it
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2FModel10L.jpg&hash=e1fbfdfd1a7498afa8d793b77b07793faef8662b)
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OK, no Punisher skull . . . how about this treatment?
(https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.snwxRA2DtNba7foJpscGJQEsC7&pid=15.1&P=0&w=288&h=181)
Enables the Cochrane defense due to sheer cognitive dissonance in the jury.
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What happens if ya use this?
NSFW!
http://herohog.com/images/guns/wtfgun.jpg [popcorn]
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In San Francisco you'd get off.
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I opened this up at home and was able to see the link this time. IMO, if you have a self defense incident, it will go through stages (investigation, grand jury, trial, etc) and you hope it goes no further each time as it could cost you more money and time and stress. Even if you know you will be found not guilty, if something like this means the difference between getting no-billed by the grand jury and going to trial, it is certainly worth it to avoid the bling.
All that said, the odds of getting into a self defense shoot are slim. The odds of this stuff making a difference may also be slim (depends on where you live and maybe luck of the draw). The potential consequences are pretty bad. Sounds a lot like buying lottery tickets.
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On the serious nature of this discussion, I've been impressed by what people have done to their guns but when it comes to mine I've never had the desire to do anything except a re-blue or change the grips or sights.
So this sort of question would not come up. I do agree with one of the posters over there that while there's a chance that, say, a skull won't hurt you in court there is no chance it will help.
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In San Francisco you'd get off.
He was talking about dealing with legal consequences, sicko.
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I have the answer for mods that will HELP ya in court!
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2Fcrucifixrifle.jpg&hash=e2854ebf85b441b9a157c35c84296958c0f768ab)
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Virtually all of my guns wear Hogue rubber grips of one form or another.
A few still factory grips on them (S&W 4506, HK P7), because they're a pain to replace otherwise.
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I've changed most of my grips, too. I even had an M1917 I had to put a grip filler on. Can't understand why they put such awkward grips on DA guns.
Warren noted:
"I do agree with one of the posters over there that while there's a chance that, say, a skull won't hurt you in court there is no chance it will help."
I agree there, too, and I wonder about some of the aggressive stuff put on the inside of some AR dust covers and added to safety switches.
Terry
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I have the answer for mods that will HELP ya in court!
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2Fcrucifixrifle.jpg&hash=e2854ebf85b441b9a157c35c84296958c0f768ab)
"... which clearly shows that the shooting was a religiously motivated hate crime."
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I have the answer for mods that will HELP ya in court!
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2Fcrucifixrifle.jpg&hash=e2854ebf85b441b9a157c35c84296958c0f768ab)
"A CRUSADER!"
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2FHelloKittyAR.jpg&hash=73e5a2e84f5655b19ec20f3dacfbd03df9e506ef)
If you read the study I posted, Jurors are also biased against WOMEN who shoot someone in self-defense. It's appalling. :facepalm:
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If you read the study I posted, Jurors are also biased against WOMEN who shoot someone in self-defense. It's appalling. :facepalm:
Wait, WHAT?
I read it, and honestly, I was shocked. I shouldn't be, but I am. The studies confirm gender stereotype/discrimination in self-defense, but I fail to understand why. The vast majority of females are at a normal disadvantage in a physical confrontation. Why would people want to literally punish a woman for defending herself even harsher?
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Wait, WHAT?
I read it, and honestly, I was shocked. I shouldn't be, but I am. The studies confirm gender stereotype/discrimination in self-defense, but I fail to understand why. The vast majority of females are at a normal disadvantage in a physical confrontation. Why would people want to literally punish a woman for defending herself even harsher?
They're women. They get all excitable-like. Can't be trusted, you see. They get all hysterical.
I wonder when the surveys were done, given that killer chick chic is all the rage in entertainment recently.
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Plucked from the above:
They're going to have a hard time making the case that my "fabulously purple" kentucky pistol is indicative of violent tendencies.
...but I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of the odds and have to sit there while my lawyer tries to explain to a jury that I'm not really a homicidal vigilante...
At $350 / hr.
Accusations are cheap, defense is expensive.
And I had a set of nice hand-filling for my big hands stag grips for my 1911, but I put the laser grips on it instead.
Come to think of it.... laser grips.... obviously more efficient death-dealing device.
... Oh, drat....
Terry
REF (For the record, Jack Lord's gift from Elvis Presley):
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.juliensauctions.com%2Fimages%2Fauctions%2F2007%2Fsummer-sale%2Flots%2Flot-288.jpg&hash=60bf71c480ae44e1c2c88d7469fa0d999d9f0b47)
See also:
http://www.juliensauctions.com/auctions/2007/Summer-Sale/lot-288.html
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Wait, WHAT?
I read it, and honestly, I was shocked. I shouldn't be, but I am. The studies confirm gender stereotype/discrimination in self-defense, but I fail to understand why. The vast majority of females are at a normal disadvantage in a physical confrontation. Why would people want to literally punish a woman for defending herself even harsher?
Because many women (and there are often a lot of women on juries) are secretly afraid of empowered women, and a woman who has taken charge of her own personal security to the point of buying a [GASP!] gun and learning to use it forces them to confront their inner weakness and inability/unwillingness to take responsibility for their own security.
And some males are also consciously or subconsciously challenged by the notion of an empowered female. I doubt that applies to most of us here on APS (I doubt I'm the only one of us who teaches women to use guns), but they're out there.
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Time for the lawyer to chime in...
A friend of mine went through a home invasion. She was home alone when the bad guys kicked in the door. She fired on them. Smith Model 15, blued, with Hogue rubber grips,aftermarket sights, a reshaped hammer, and a trigger shoe, loaded with .38 Special +P 158 grain LSWHP ammo. All six shots, then she reloaded. It was one of three ready firearms in the safe. The other two were a Glock 17 and a Bushmaster AR. She grabbed it because she was comfortable with the revolver. The cops didn't seize all of the guns from the house, though that revolver was taken as evidence. It was returned about a month later. Of the six shots she fired, four bullets were recovered from the door and door frame. One hit the windshield of their car, and one was not recovered, but blood was found in the driveway and in the car. No arrests. Nothing presented to grand jury. It's all done. The firearm used was never an issue, nor were the modifications.
If she had pulled out a pink AR with the kitty painted on the stock, nothing would have changed. Why? The circumstances of the shoot were that clear. A mother home alone when the door is kicked in and five guys run into the house? Hell, she could have used a select fire SBR and likely had the same results. Security camera footage backed her version of events. It was completely justified.
If you want to modify a purely range gun, knock yourself out. Want to paint the Punisher skull on it? Have at it. But don't use this as a defensive firearm. Keep it locked up. Want to modify your defensive firearms to make them more accurate, or rather to make you a better shot with that firearm? Go right ahead. Just don't bother with the cute saying engraved on it. I figure it this way...it might not hurt you in court, but it surely isn't going to help you.