Author Topic: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of  (Read 2415 times)

Balog

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Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« on: September 29, 2012, 09:54:42 PM »
Let me preface this by saying I don't agree with everything the bloke says, so feel free to not quote snippets and indignantly ask if I support what was said. With that out of the way, he does make some fascinating points about capitalism and Marx's predictions on globalisation.

Quote
Marx’s fundamental error was to assume that there was such a thing as ‘capitalism’, that is to say that normal economic relations were a specific state of being, out of which humanity could escape by adopting a rather vague alternative known as ‘socialism’. I always object, these days, to the very idea of ‘capitalism’. It treats remorseless reality as a dogmatic choice. You might as well call weather ‘ rainism and sunism’, as if we had some way of creating and dwelling in an alternative atmosphere which dispensed with the earth’s climate as it is, and instead provided perpetual delight, warmth, fertility, plenty and joy (details unspecified, to be supplied after you’ve handed over state power to me).

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‘Utopia can only ever be approached across a sea of blood, and you never get there’.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2012/09/put-him-back-the-resurrection-men-dig-up-karl-marx-ive-always-liked-the-expression-resurrection-man-used-in-la.html
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roo_ster

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 01:39:59 AM »
Marx's fundamental error was that he was a lying piece of dog crap who distorted the UK gov't's own records of its disciplinary actions of factories that did not meet contemporary gov't standards.  He did this to "prove" his adolescent & masturbatory fantasies of a great collision of two great historical forces.  And then he claimed it was, like, all "scientific" & stuff.

What is incredible is that anyone with two brain cells to rub together might believe his Grand Tapestry of Bullshit.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 05:20:51 AM »
For all his flaws Marx was an epic titan of intellect as compared to most of his followers.

This is to such an extent that I start, and win, debates with graduate students who happen to be socialists merely by quoting Marx and Lenin at them.

The vast gap in intelligence and erudition is astounding.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 11:16:26 AM »
For all his flaws Marx was an epic titan of intellect as compared to most of his followers.

This is to such an extent that I start, and win, debates with graduate students who happen to be socialists merely by quoting Marx and Lenin at them.

The vast gap in intelligence and erudition is astounding.


may i quote that on face book?  yes i'm trolling and of course you will be invited to help reel em in.  >:D
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Hutch

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2012, 01:05:45 PM »
Can't claim this as original, but it's been so long, I also can't come up with a cite:

Capitalism is a natural order of things.  You can no more legislate it out of existence than you can gravity.
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Tallpine

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2012, 01:43:05 PM »
Can't claim this as original, but it's been so long, I also can't come up with a cite:

Capitalism is a natural order of things.  You can no more legislate it out of existence than you can gravity.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2012, 02:10:04 PM »

may i quote that on face book?  yes i'm trolling and of course you will be invited to help reel em in.  >:D

Sure
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TommyGunn

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2012, 04:30:40 PM »
I've heard another theory; "capitalism" was called that by the lefties in order to brand it as an "-ism."  Properly we should call it free enterprise but by calling it capitalism we automatically lump it with socialism and communism..... ??? [tinfoil]   Sorta makes sense..... in a way ..... really. [popcorn]
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2012, 06:50:24 PM »
I've heard another theory; "capitalism" was called that by the lefties in order to brand it as an "-ism."  Properly we should call it free enterprise but by calling it capitalism we automatically lump it with socialism and communism..... ??? [tinfoil]   Sorta makes sense..... in a way ..... really. [popcorn]

"Free Enterprise" sounds too much like a motivated pro-active personally successful citizen enjoying a life of liberty and plenty. Bit harder to denigrate that than "Capitalism," so I wouldn't be surprised if there was any truth to that.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2012, 07:02:27 PM »
Capitalism is a natural order of things.  You can no more legislate it out of existence than you can gravity.


I'd agree that it can't quite be legislated out of existence, since it is part of human nature. But capitalism can quite readily be legislated into the background, by nationalizing various industries and collectivizing farm land, and such. What can't be legislated away are the forces that make capitalism so prosperous. You can't legislate away the fact that things have value, or that those values change according to supply/demand. You can't legislate away the fact that people desire to own (control) the things they need to stay alive, keep their families alive, better their lot in life, etc. So you can outlaw capitalism to the point that you depress the economy (as Communists nations have done), but capitalist behavior continues on a thousand smaller scales, and economic laws that make capitalism work will go on, fighting your planned economy every step of the way.
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2012, 08:02:11 PM »

I'd agree that it can't quite be legislated out of existence, since it is part of human nature. But capitalism can quite readily be legislated into the background, by nationalizing various industries and collectivizing farm land, and such. What can't be legislated away are the forces that make capitalism so prosperous. You can't legislate away the fact that things have value, or that those values change according to supply/demand. You can't legislate away the fact that people desire to own (control) the things they need to stay alive, keep their families alive, better their lot in life, etc. So you can outlaw capitalism to the point that you depress the economy (as Communists nations have done), but capitalist behavior continues on a thousand smaller scales, and economic laws that make capitalism work will go on, fighting your planned economy every step of the way.

Well put.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2012, 08:46:48 AM »
The problem is, Marx - unlike his modern successors, defined capitalism and communism in a very specific way. In Marxism, not every system where people privately own means of production is 'capitalism'. Clearly he differentiated between that and, for example, the slavery-operated economics of the American South, and the economics as practiced by feudal Europe. Equally he did not define 'communism' as an ideology, but as the state of affairs that would be reached as the final stage of history. (This is why Communists claim the USSR was not Communist - it had practiced communism as an ideology, but had failed to actually achieve Communism).

Marxism has multiple philosophical and economic weaknesses. It's prime weakness is that it claim to possess a scientific-like process by which it can predict the major developments of history.

The secondary problem is that it believes that people have inherent interests, derived from their class status, which would lead them to pursue these interests. This would lead to inevitable class struggle. Of course, when men identified with men in other social classes (say, by becoming nationalists, racists, religious or political activists), this was a 'false consciousness' - Marxists know better than you who you should identify with!

The tertiary problem is that of economic calculation. Suppose we have eliminated the motivation problem and established a fair, honest, un-corrupt Communist society - something which has so far not been possibly beyond the scale of a small village, and even there it seems to only last with state subsidies. Without profits and price mechanisms, how will the Communist society know what needs to be produced? Are we making 9,000,000 pairs of blue jeans and 1,000,000 pairs of black jeans this year, or vice versa? Regular condoms or blueberry-flavored ones?

Then there's that pesky motivation issue.
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grampster

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2012, 08:55:21 AM »
Capitalism = Realityism

Communism = Fantasyism
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RevDisk

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2012, 08:59:55 AM »
Without profits and price mechanisms, how will the Communist society know what needs to be produced? Are we making 9,000,000 pairs of blue jeans and 1,000,000 pairs of black jeans this year, or vice versa? Regular condoms or blueberry-flavored ones?

Then there's that pesky motivation issue.

First one is easy to answer. "Centralized planning". Command economy.

Second one is also easy to answer. "Shoot folks that don't work hard enough for the collective."

Neither works particularly well in the long run.
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HankB

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2012, 09:20:07 AM »
Any economic and social system designed and guided by human beings will have its flaws, but free enterprise works better than communism or socialism simply because people work hardest when they work for themselves. When the Soviets - grudgingly - allowed kolkhozniks to work their own plots of land, the productivity per acre was several times that of the collectively owned land. People worked harder for what they thought of as their own, and worked only hard enough on the collectively owned land to keep their owner's whips off their backs.

Slaves - anyone, really - don't like working at gunpoint for the benefit of others. And that's the ultimate failure of communism and socialism; most of the people are effectively slaves.

As for the problems we've got . . . given all the regulatory alphabet agencies with armed agents and a government that sucks up more than a quarter of the country's gross national product, I'd argue we're abandoning the very free enterprise principles that have a history of actually working.
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longeyes

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2012, 11:52:54 AM »
Marxism is described as a materialistic ideology but, in fact, it appears to require a transcendentalist perspective to make sense.  Marx posits the ultimate disappearance of the State and the arising of a new Individual, but this "individual" resembles a Jungian Gnostic more than a real-world Communist.
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Scout26

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Re: Interesting piece on Marx, sort of
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2012, 03:15:37 PM »
And Marx got the whole surplus-value from the employment of labor thing completely wrong. 

(Here's a hint Karl, it's why employers hire employees....)
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