Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: vaskidmark on March 31, 2015, 02:13:05 PM
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2015/03/30/a-revolt-is-growing-as-more-people-refuse-to-pay-back-student-loans/
TL/DR version -
Students picked for-profit private school that lied about job placement, attendance, fudged grades. Graduates told by employers that their diploma is not worth the paper it is printed on. They admit they took out the loans but say they should not have to pay them back.
They may have a chance.
An attorney working with the Collective is helping the strikers file what’s known as a defense to repayment claim, an appeal to the Education Department to discharge the federal loans on the grounds that the for-profit school broke the law. Organizers posted the claim form on their Web site last week and had received 300 applications from Corinthian students as of Monday morning, according to Luke Herrine, a Debt Collective organizer.
The department has broad authority to cancel federal student loans when colleges violate students’ rights and state law. There is even a clause in federal student loan agreements that says: “In some cases, you may assert, as a defense against collection of your loan, that the school did something wrong or failed to do something that it should have done.”
Meanwhile, because they did not use due diligance John/Jane Q. Taxpayer is going to get stuck with the bill. And they did not get taken out to dinner and plied with drinks first.
stay safe.
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^^^I have read of similar issues involving recent law school graduates suing their law schools over fudged placement numbers.
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It’s a tough call for the government. State attorneys general and the CFPB lawsuits against Corinthian present strong evidence of years of misconduct that could strengthen the students’ cases. But granting the discharges could mean the loss of billions of dollars in taxpayer money and set a precedent for future requests for loan forgiveness.
Well, golly gee. Hint to .gov: If you didn’t want students to ask for loan discharges when they get defrauded, perhaps you shouldn’t have opened the door to such requests in your loan agreements.
The department has broad authority to cancel federal student loans when colleges violate students’ rights and state law. There is even a clause in federal student loan agreements that says: “In some cases, you may assert, as a defense against collection of your loan, that the school did something wrong or failed to do something that it should have done.”
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Provider failed to deliver, and or misrepresented product.
Customer refuses payment.
Sounds like they learned something about contract law.
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the morons that run up thousands of dollars in student debt are the ones that are going to break the bank. As usual, liberals and their hair brained schemes are the ones that cause these mega financial disruptions.
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All schools paint a rosy picture of their graduates' futures. You wouldn't expect them to do otherwise. It's up to the prospective students to figure out what the schooling is really worth to them.
It’s a dicey move because students who default can lose their paychecks, tax refunds or even a portion of their Social Security. Not paying back debt can also ruin someone’s credit, making it difficult to buy a house or car, or to get a job.
But organizers say most of the strikers are already in default. Anyone willing to join the movement must attend a financial literacy workshop on the consequences of not repaying their debt, according to the organizers.
Uh huh. It's not a protest, it's an excuse.
I'm tired of whiny people blaming others for their own bad decisions. Paying tens of thousands of dollars for schooling anything without fully investigating its value is a bad decision.
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If it turns out that a court determines the "school" did defraud students, then the loan underwriter (the Feds?) ought to be able to obtain reimbursement from the "school" in the full amount of the loans - plus interest.
And isn't fraud generally a crime? IANAL, but it seems that if a crime was knowingly committed by employees of the institution, those employees ought to have some personal exposure to criminal charges. I know - from working for a LARGE company - that if I committed some crime on behalf of the company (e.g., money laundering, bribery of foreign officials, etc.) I could be looking at some time in the slammer myself; why not "school" officials?
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I don't know specifically about Corinthian College, but in most of these cases it isn't outright fraud. It's more that the school takes the rosiest possible interpretation of murky data.
Even if the school did wrong the students in some way, the solution is for the students to seek recompense from the school. The loan providers didn't defraud anyone, and shafting them isn't fair or just. Granted, the way the loans are written opens a door to this kind of foolishness, but that still doesn't make it right.
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All schools paint a rosy picture of their graduates' futures. You wouldn't expect them to do otherwise. It's up to the prospective students to figure out what the schooling is really worth to them.
Uh huh. It's not a protest, it's an excuse.
I'm tired of whiny people blaming others for their own bad decisions. Paying tens of thousands of dollars for schooling anything without fully investigating its value is a bad decision.
I'd like to point out that it's probably not the ones who managed to get jobs despite their expensive degree that are protesting, it's the ones that took the loans in anticipation of being able to pay for them with their nice new high paying job they got with the degree. Instead they're stuck with the loans, often with family, working a near-minimum wage job, if that.
To put it another way - while yes, we can probably find something that each protesting student did 'wrong', at least for the vast majority of them, but the fact of the matter is that the school is a scam artist and committing fraud.
Forgive the student's loans. Take the money out of the school. When they protest they're bankrupt, seize everything, including the assets of the CEO and such. Decertify the school, IE it doesn't get any federal money anymore -grants, loans, etc...
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I'm all for paying your student loans and if it just a case of *expletive deleted*it happens, you were dumb enough to get a degree in underwater basket weaving, you are an unemployable moron, etc. refer back to the first reason.
But there's plenty of schools lying to folks to varying degrees, some of which IMO crosses the line into outright fraud. In which case they dang well should have their loans discharged and the school should be held liable for the balance.
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What about fraud on the students' part? A lot of these so-called 'students' took out huge loans to live high off the hog for years without any intention of getting a degree. FSA types have been getting a wink and a nod from their patron president for several years now that forgiveness of student loans is going to be in the works. Whether the schools were legitimate or scams matters less than the fed.gov handing out free money to anyone who asks.
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All schools paint a rosy picture of their graduates' futures. You wouldn't expect them to do otherwise. It's up to the prospective students to figure out what the schooling is really worth to them.
You mean someone actually believed advertising? And here I didn't think that just using Axe bodywash would get me hot chicks.
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You mean someone actually believed advertising? And here I didn't think that just using Axe bodywash would get me hot chicks.
Axe will totally get you hot chicks. I saw it on a commercial, so I know it must be true.
And if it doesn't, well, just go ahead and skip a credit card payment or two. :laugh:
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What about fraud on the students' part? A lot of these so-called 'students' took out huge loans to live high off the hog for years without any intention of getting a degree. FSA types have been getting a wink and a nod from their patron president for several years now that forgiveness of student loans is going to be in the works. Whether the schools were legitimate or scams matters less than the fed.gov handing out free money to anyone who asks.
Citation? Per the attached article it implies that they have degrees - degrees the employers told them are worse than worthless. Most of these schools charge the *maximum* most students can get via loans for tuition alone. They might be in 'nice' classrooms, but a massive amount of their money is being taken as profit and advertising expenses(to get the next generation of suckers).
As long as the federal government is going to be subsidizing education, it needs to step up and set standards, which it has, but it looks like they need to be tightened. To wit, allow students to 'petition' for loan forgiveness if they figure out that their degree isn't worth what the university said. However, any university that gets too many successful petitions against it loses eligibility for federal programs. Especially if it's charging the maximum allowed amount per student. So the money pool dries up. The 'for profit' university becomes, while still not 'cheap', at least extremely dedicated to keeping it's eligibility and thus not allowing students to take degrees in 'underwater basket weaving'. We might even see intense cooperation with other businesses to produce graduates targeted at their requirements for maximum employability.
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Citation?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-04/what-student-loans-are-really-used-depressing-case-studies
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2013/07/24/undergrads-blow-it-with-student-loan-refunds
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304585004579415022664472930
As long as the federal government is going to be subsidizing education, it needs to step up and set standards, which it has, but it looks like they need to be tightened. To wit, allow students to 'petition' for loan forgiveness if they figure out that their degree isn't worth what the university said. However, any university that gets too many successful petitions against it loses eligibility for federal programs. Especially if it's charging the maximum allowed amount per student. So the money pool dries up. The 'for profit' university becomes, while still not 'cheap', at least extremely dedicated to keeping it's eligibility and thus not allowing students to take degrees in 'underwater basket weaving'. We might even see intense cooperation with other businesses to produce graduates targeted at their requirements for maximum employability.
That goes double for State universities. People like to single out 'for profit' because 'profit' is an evil, loaded word- as if making a 'profit' is morally wrong....State universities have turned into degree mills that churn out diplomas for various flavors of useless marxist studies.
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And here I didn't think that just using Axe bodywash would get me hot chicks.
It didn't? You must be using it wrong.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2F8i5uylpgt%2Fimage.jpg&hash=ac4a6a6ec5b22b92e037e8e825377f6e2d694c06) (http://postimg.org/image/8i5uylpgt/)
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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-04/what-student-loans-are-really-used-depressing-case-studies
http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2013/07/24/undergrads-blow-it-with-student-loan-refunds
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304585004579415022664472930
That goes double for State universities. People like to single out 'for profit' because 'profit' is an evil, loaded word- as if making a 'profit' is morally wrong....State universities have turned into degree mills that churn out diplomas for various flavors of useless marxist studies.
The thing about State Universities is not entirely true. Of course, I'm attending the University of Alaska - Fairbanks right now for a STEM degree, so I'm probably biased.
But yeah, it'd be universal.
Reviewing your links -
First: Outright fraud, 'paying rent to mother, pay cellphone bill, and catch occasional movie' fails to raise my ire all that much. Let's face it, cellphones are practically a requirement anymore, an adult should be paying 'rent', and we don't know mom's financial situation otherwise. 'Occasional movie', well, some entertainment is to be expected. Other than that, I see examples, anecdotes, not data on abuse. A man using the loans to 'stock the freezer' so his family doesn't have to worry about food for a bit longer? The loans are supposed to help cover living expenses. Said anecdotes show that tightening the rules for 'part time' students would be good. They should pro-rate the loans on the basis of how close to 'full time' you are.
"About 25% took loans that exceeded tuition, after grants, by $2,500" - No mention of living expenses. Here at UAF, if you live in student housing, you have to buy a 'Meal Plan', the cheapest of which is around $1.5k per semester. Would that be included in 'Tuition'? It's not on the documents they give you...
Second: Some abuse stories, not much different than teens with their first credit card often get into. I'm sorry but debt consolidation and lower interest rates only makes sense. I actually applaud the family that started a business and are actually making money.
Third: WGJ link wants me to subscribe. Sorry, nope.
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The thing about State Universities is not entirely true. Of course, I'm attending the University of Alaska - Fairbanks right now for a STEM degree, so I'm probably biased
I'm not going to knock the STEM programs...have degrees in chemistry and biology myself, never a waste of money. Otoh, as a taxpayer, I don't want to pick up the tab for the loacal barista who has a degree in afrocentric gay womyn victimhood literature.
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I'm not going to knock the STEM programs...have degrees in chemistry and biology myself, never a waste of money. Otoh, as a taxpayer, I don't want to pick up the tab for the loacal barista who has a degree in afrocentric gay womyn victimhood literature.
Before you'd have to 'pick up the tab', remember that:
1. She's still on the hook for the payments. Unless she can express how the university misled her about the employment prospects for a degree in 'afrocentric gay womyn victimhood literature', she's stuck paying even when working as a barista.
2. There's still a fair amount of call for degrees in the 'liberal arts'.
3. If you start making it so that a college is dinged whenever a student defaults/has his debt written off, primarily due to inability to find a job that pays well enough to pay them off, I think that you'd see colleges going even further to place students, and might just tighten the degree requirements, or jettison those with the lowest employment prospects.
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It didn't? You must be using it wrong.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2F8i5uylpgt%2Fimage.jpg&hash=ac4a6a6ec5b22b92e037e8e825377f6e2d694c06) (http://postimg.org/image/8i5uylpgt/)
Well, welcome to the "goofy looking bastard with a hot wife" club.
I'm also a member
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IF they defrauded her, then it seems to me that's between her and the school. The loans were given, and why should the lender "eat" the cost?
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IF they defrauded her, then it seems to me that's between her and the school. The loans were given, and why should the lender "eat" the cost?
Think of it like secured debt. The used car a guy bought, and you gave a loan for, turns out to be a fraudulently worthless piece of junk and the dealer's gone(bankrupt). The guy who bought the car, in good faith, just doesn't have the resources to support debt payments on TWO cars, and he really needs a car, so he stops paying YOUR note. It's probably cheaper for you to simply eat the cost than to try to sue him, he'll just let you have the car.
Consider it somewhere between the cost of doing business and the need for you, the lender, to be careful not only who you lend to, but for what.
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Think of it like secured debt. The used car a guy bought, and you gave a loan for, turns out to be a fraudulently worthless piece of junk and the dealer's gone(bankrupt). The guy who bought the car, in good faith, just doesn't have the resources to support debt payments on TWO cars, and he really needs a car, so he stops paying YOUR note. It's probably cheaper for you to simply eat the cost than to try to sue him, he'll just let you have the car.
Consider it somewhere between the cost of doing business and the need for you, the lender, to be careful not only who you lend to, but for what.
Except the dealer HASNT gone bankrupt, he's still actively taking money for others.
Sorry, the "cost" of doing business as a moneylender isn't negotiating between the buyer and seller of the goods. This isn't secured debt. There is no collateral.
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Except the dealer HASNT gone bankrupt, he's still actively taking money for others.
See how long that lasts when you start demanding money back for 'failed' educations.
And I was making an analogy.
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See how long that lasts when you start demanding money back for 'failed' educations.
And I was making an analogy.
Analogies are useless when there are crucial differences.
I borrow 20 bucks from you for a bunch of Axe. It doesn't get me hot women.
I'm mad because Axe said it did.
Your fault? Do i suddenly not owe you the 20 bucks anymore?
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I borrow 20 bucks from you for a bunch of Axe. It doesn't get me hot women.
I'm mad because Axe said it did.
Your fault? Do i suddenly not owe you the 20 bucks anymore?
Your analogy fails because, of critical differences:
1. Axe doesn't promise 'hot women' to the point of it counting as fraud.
2. The amounts of money involved differ by orders of magnitude.
Like I said before, I'm not giving these people a free ride. In order for me to 'write off' their debt, I'd require them to essentially declare bankruptcy AND show evidence of fraud/failure on the part of the college or university.
Declaring bankruptcy is a traditional way to declare that you can't pay our debts. In this case, it'd be showing that despite your shiny new degree, you can't find employment befitting of somebody with such a degree. Such as the graduates of a nursing college that found out that their degree wasn't worth crap because the university lost it's accreditation. That the course of instruction didn't cover what the hospitals required.
A degree in nursing isn't supposed to be a 'worthless' one. It's supposed to be an 'up and coming' career field.
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Due diligence? You try to ascertain if a car or a house is worth what you are paying before you sign up right? Do you buy your house based on what you make now, or expect to make? The concept of professional student is dubious at best. If you can't pay your bills, don't go to school. If you can't ever expect to pay your loan bills, don't sign the line. If you do sign, honor your contract. If you saw an ad for Corinthian schools and still signed my buddy P.T. wants to talk to you. Stupid should hurt.
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Due diligence? You try to ascertain if a car or a house is worth what you are paying before you sign up right? Do you buy your house based on what you make now, or expect to make? The concept of professional student is dubious at best. If you can't pay your bills, don't go to school. If you can't ever expect to pay your loan bills, don't sign the line. If you do sign, honor your contract. If you saw an ad for Corinthian schools and still signed my buddy P.T. wants to talk to you. Stupid should hurt.
1. Due diligence isn't 100%, especially against dedicated fraud.
2. Sometimes things happen. I paid for a home inspector when I bought my place. I went through it carefully, read the report. Due diligence, right? Didn't prevent me from having to replace the boiler because of a leak the first winter. There have been people who bought a place only to find out that the soil was toxic and they couldn't live there. Another I read about is looking to sell, not 3 months after purchasing, because he can't get internet there, and he works from home as a programmer. He had assurances from two different ISPs - Cable and Telephone, that they could provide service before he bought.
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Analogies are useless when there are crucial differences.
I borrow 20 bucks from you for a bunch of Axe. It doesn't get me hot women.
I'm mad because Axe said it did.
Your fault? Do i suddenly not owe you the 20 bucks anymore?
Or when that golden 2x4 don't get me past the pearly gates.
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Due diligence? You try to ascertain if a car or a house is worth what you are paying before you sign up right? Do you buy your house based on what you make now, or expect to make? The concept of professional student is dubious at best. If you can't pay your bills, don't go to school. If you can't ever expect to pay your loan bills, don't sign the line. If you do sign, honor your contract. If you saw an ad for Corinthian schools and still signed my buddy P.T. wants to talk to you. Stupid should hurt.
So an 18 year old kid should pay for a school on the minimum wage they make flipping burgers, instead of what their profession is going to pay? Good luck with that when a semester of school costs almost as much as they'll make in a year at McDonalds.
We're not talking about someone who perpetually goes to school until the loans run out, but folks whose school committed fraud. Key word there. So either discharge their loan and let the school pay it directly, let the school be sued for all the damages (loan, living expenses, etc.) incurred as a result of the schools fraud, or if nothing else let it be discharged under normal bankruptcy conditions like anyone else who was defrauded and can not collect/pay their bills as a result of that.
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Well, welcome to the "goofy looking bastard with a hot wife" club.
That was just the third date. She's not off the potentials list, but there are some things in her life that she needs to deal with before it's even a consideration.
She's got a bit over a year before this one's back in the country so she might need to hurry a bit:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2F3vdasxf71%2Fimage.jpg&hash=eb0c1586627ca376a262ddf795f3fea618d65551) (http://postimg.org/image/3vdasxf71/)
I think this one just goes to the movies with me for the popcorn:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2F4lqx0un59%2Fimage.jpg&hash=30da5c53cbeb0b0b3d6473fd030f50183609b5a9) (http://postimg.org/image/4lqx0un59/)
Planning to see this one tomorrow, though unfortunately without the Corvette.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2Fx6lofagh9%2FWendy_Vette.jpg&hash=1d4b2235a0670062b8cb7ad71c9bcb2921746210) (http://postimg.org/image/x6lofagh9/)
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So they're decent on the hot scale. But where are they on the crazy scale? Remember, if they're a 9 or 10 hot, and less than a 3 or 4 crazy you're in the tranny zone.
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That was just the third date. She's not off the potentials list, but there are some things in her life that she needs to deal with before it's even a consideration.
She's got a bit over a year before this one's back in the country so she might need to hurry a bit:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2F3vdasxf71%2Fimage.jpg&hash=eb0c1586627ca376a262ddf795f3fea618d65551) (http://postimg.org/image/3vdasxf71/)
I think this one just goes to the movies with me for the popcorn:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2F4lqx0un59%2Fimage.jpg&hash=30da5c53cbeb0b0b3d6473fd030f50183609b5a9) (http://postimg.org/image/4lqx0un59/)
Planning to see this one tomorrow, though unfortunately without the Corvette.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2Fx6lofagh9%2FWendy_Vette.jpg&hash=1d4b2235a0670062b8cb7ad71c9bcb2921746210) (http://postimg.org/image/x6lofagh9/)
Danger!!!! This post is on a public forum! Do you have a death wish?
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Analogies are useless when there are crucial differences.
I borrow 20 bucks from you for a bunch of Axe. It doesn't get me hot women.
I'm mad because Axe said it did.
Your fault? Do i suddenly not owe you the 20 bucks anymore?
It is my liability when Axe and I have arranged for you to contact me for loans to purchase their product;
It is my liability when I have a manned office at the Axe sales location to process your loan application;
It is my liability when I have full disclosure as to the intended use of the money (in effect, a secured loan);
It is my liability when, after the above, Axe took my money from you and then sold you a bottle of piss with a squirt of dish soap.
Look, I'm not suggesting that defrauding financial institutions is fair or right. I am suggesting that this situation may be justifiable if it (fat chance) results in more rigorous underwriting or risk/payback analysis. After all, this is our money that's being jacked.
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That was just the third date. She's not off the potentials list, but there are some things in her life that she needs to deal with before it's even a consideration.
She's got a bit over a year before this one's back in the country so she might need to hurry a bit:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2F3vdasxf71%2Fimage.jpg&hash=eb0c1586627ca376a262ddf795f3fea618d65551) (http://postimg.org/image/3vdasxf71/)
I think this one just goes to the movies with me for the popcorn:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2F4lqx0un59%2Fimage.jpg&hash=30da5c53cbeb0b0b3d6473fd030f50183609b5a9) (http://postimg.org/image/4lqx0un59/)
Planning to see this one tomorrow, though unfortunately without the Corvette.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2Fx6lofagh9%2FWendy_Vette.jpg&hash=1d4b2235a0670062b8cb7ad71c9bcb2921746210) (http://postimg.org/image/x6lofagh9/)
#2 and #3 both have some serious crazy eye going on, run.
=D
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When I transferred into a college they decided, after 2 semesters, to no longer accept the credits I brought with me from a previous (much higher ranked) college. I had it in writing, I relied on it, but then after I had already sunk a year into the institution they required me to take additional classes of no meaningful value that costs me over ten thousand dollars and a goodly chunk of my time.
When I went to law school, there was a change of administration that wasn't announced until the year started; and with it came an overhaul of their programs. What I got was a very significant departure from what I was promised. But, law school credits don't transfer at all; and they aren't keen on letting a student get away. Their financial aid dept. was so kind as to rewrite and resubmit my loan application for me for the higher amounts later on too.
When student debt is discussed there is always plenty of talk of how important it is to pay ones' owns debts ect. Often lacking is the mindfulness that by act of Congress Student Loans have no consumer protections; no appeal to the protection of state laws, and fraud at a multitude of levels is rampant. They get you before, during, and after. There is plenty more to express on the subject, but, yah, I am not a fan of the status quo.
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The loan program is meant to send everyone possible to college - this is a classic case of "market principles" gone awry in government policy. The government chose to make cheap loans available in huge quantities for education. Naturally, a significant proportion of the education sector's response has been a scramble for the cash. The system is now oriented around trapping the billions flowing through the stream.
Setting aside whether we should be using public incentives for college, a much more reliable way to achieve an educated populace is to simply spend the funds on public education, and make it cheaper to go. It's a subsidy all the same, but it doesn't create a feeding frenzy for dollars. It also gives the public some control over what subjects and disciplines get priority. So, if we don't like liberal arts, we can administer our public schools to favour sciences, etc.
If you want profit seeking, flooding the market with cash is a good idea. If you want some other outcome, it is almost always better to just spend the cash directly to buy it. This goes for housing, education, and health just the same.
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If you want profit seeking, flooding the market with cash is a good idea. If you want some other outcome, it is almost always better to just spend the cash directly to buy it. This goes for housing, education, and health just the same.
I've actually said before - the best way to 'correct' the problem of students graduating with too much debt and being forced to take minimum wage jobs that require a ridiculously high degree for it's skill level(like the business that wanted a Master's degree to be a mail clerk) is to stop giving out so much money for college educations.
With less money available to go to college with, we'd see fewer people going to college. As you may know, in economics the higher the price goes, the more people are willing to offer that good/service. Drop the price people are willing/able to pay, businesses tend to offer less of it.
With fewer people going to and graduating from college, Jobs that offer low wages for 'college degree required' jobs will find themselves unable to fulfill the slot, on average. Some jobs like charities might attract some workers, but unless your job is really 'fulfilling' and 'fun' outside of pure pay, you're not going to get anybody. Ergo, wages for college graduates rise, and high school graduates become more employable again.
When I transferred into a college they decided, after 2 semesters, to no longer accept the credits I brought with me from a previous (much higher ranked) college. I had it in writing, I relied on it, but then after I had already sunk a year into the institution they required me to take additional classes of no meaningful value that costs me over ten thousand dollars and a goodly chunk of my time.
If you had it in writing, you probably could have sued over them deciding to not take the credits.
It is my liability when Axe and I have arranged for you to contact me for loans to purchase their product;
It is my liability when I have a manned office at the Axe sales location to process your loan application;
It is my liability when I have full disclosure as to the intended use of the money (in effect, a secured loan);
It is my liability when, after the above, Axe took my money from you and then sold you a bottle of piss with a squirt of dish soap.
Look, I'm not suggesting that defrauding financial institutions is fair or right. I am suggesting that this situation may be justifiable if it (fat chance) results in more rigorous underwriting or risk/payback analysis. After all, this is our money that's being jacked.
You said what I was trying to say better than I could. Thank you.
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The loan program is meant to send everyone possible to college - this is a classic case of "market principles" gone awry in government policy. The government chose to make cheap loans available in huge quantities for education. Naturally, a significant proportion of the education sector's response has been a scramble for the cash. The system is now oriented around trapping the billions flowing through the stream.
Setting aside whether we should be using public incentives for college, a much more reliable way to achieve an educated populace is to simply spend the funds on public education, and make it cheaper to go. It's a subsidy all the same, but it doesn't create a feeding frenzy for dollars. It also gives the public some control over what subjects and disciplines get priority. So, if we don't like liberal arts, we can administer our public schools to favour sciences, etc.
If you want profit seeking, flooding the market with cash is a good idea. If you want some other outcome, it is almost always better to just spend the cash directly to buy it. This goes for housing, education, and health just the same.
My only nit to pick is that government has shown an ineptitude at social engineering, therefore I doubt that we could expect a subsidy to fix the problem.
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I've actually said before - the best way to 'correct' the problem of students graduating with too much debt and being forced to take minimum wage jobs that require a ridiculously high degree for it's skill level(like the business that wanted a Master's degree to be a mail clerk) is to stop giving out so much money for college educations.
FWIW, now that I'm in a position to write job reqs for positions I want to fill (and interview the candidates found by the recruiters), I don't require a college degree, nor do I give priority to an applicant just because he/she has a degree (unless it comes with a high level of experience and the degree is specific to the work they'll be doing).
Chris
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FWIW, now that I'm in a position to write job reqs for positions I want to fill (and interview the candidates found by the recruiters), I don't require a college degree, nor do I give priority to an applicant just because he/she has a degree (unless it comes with a high level of experience and the degree is specific to the work they'll be doing).
Chris
You're unusual though.
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You're unusual though.
Yep. The trend at hospitals around here is to require bachelors degree registered nurses for some silly reason over straight up rn nurses. They add zero to actual nursing skill and patient care for the extra year of fluff coursework.
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You're unusual though.
Well yeah, we already knew that.
As usual, the government has managed to squeeze out some extra feel goodz and *expletive deleted*ck up an already *expletive deleted*ed up system to even greater levels of fuckery than it had been experiencing. Throw on some massive doses of "YOU NEEDZ A DEGREE 11TY!!!" and fools that have elevated certification base lines while lowering the value of experience for decades and it's hardly surprising the flood gates have been opened and outright fraud is rampant.
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You're unusual though.
In this area (Northern VA and DC) and industry (IT Security), not so much. I can't remember the last time I saw a hiring manager give a crap about a degree. They wanted to know about experience and certs, with experience trumping all.
Chris
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#2 and #3 both have some serious crazy eye going on, run.
Yeah, and? Not marrying them, just having some fun. Crazy is good for fun, as long as you keep them away from sharp objects.
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Crazy is good for fun, as long as you keep them away from sharp objects.
Fun indeed. Until they find a sharp object. >:D
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In this area (Northern VA and DC) and industry (IT Security), not so much. I can't remember the last time I saw a hiring manager give a crap about a degree. They wanted to know about experience and certs, with experience trumping all.
Chris
I think IT in general is one of the last non-trade fields where that is the case.
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You're probably correct. Other than a year or two as a business analyst when I first graduated, I've spent my entire career in IT. I've lost count of the number of people who not only did NOT have college degrees, but didn't even have high school diplomas. The industry is almost entirely a meritocracy. I think part of it is that, until recently, much of IT learning and ability was self-taught and inherent to the type of people attracted to the field. Also, few school programs can keep up with the pace of change in the IT world. At best, you teach concepts and processes and encourage students to maintain their curiosity and willingness to self-teach throughout their career. So, being dogmatic about degrees isn't very productive.
Chris
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Yep... the only time I've ever really seen folks care about a degree in IT is when they're pushing someone into management... and even then it's most definitely not a pre-req.
I"m not finishing my master's because i feel it's necessary for my career progression, that's for sure.
As much as I bitch about the IT industry, it REALLY is a place where you make your own way. People rise in this field based entirely on their work ethic and merit.
For instance.
I did some light IT work in high school. Went into the Army as an infantryman but still played around with computers. Then I got out, and decided to go to college... which was mostly me making middlin' grades and partying a lot because I was an idiot. Then I got called back to Iraq.
Iraq mob 2005-2007. During IRAQ, finished almost all of my degree. Then about two years on a helpdesk. First REAL full time IT job. This was in 2007ish
2009, army mobilization, had just finished my B.S. Another year of non-IT experience.
2010-, help desk. Begged for more responsibility because I was learning extremely fast, particularly virtualization/storage stuff. Started M.S. because I wanted to get more into the PM and soft side of things
2011-2013 - Started as a mid tier server/storage/virt. guy. Had to learn fast because the project moved fast. Sucked up knowledge like a *expletive deleted*ing vacuum. After the "lead" quit and they searched for a replacement for 6 months, I was made the lead and I hired some folks under me. THIS was the very FIRST time that the IT world cared about my college or my military leadership experience
End of 2013 to the present: Infrastructure engineer for the second largest cloud services provider in the world, above 6 figure income, frequently get brought in on major infrastructure and design changes, and about to get converted from a contractor to a full time employee, with 2-3 engineers under me in the coming months.
So, from help desk lackey helping Mrs So-and-So "find that icon thingy that brings up the internets", to here, in a bit under 8 years. And that includes three years of *expletive deleted*in off with the army, not doing IT work.
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You're probably correct. Other than a year or two as a business analyst when I first graduated, I've spent my entire career in IT. I've lost count of the number of people who not only did NOT have college degrees, but didn't even have high school diplomas. The industry is almost entirely a meritocracy. I think part of it is that, until recently, much of IT learning and ability was self-taught and inherent to the type of people attracted to the field. Also, few school programs can keep up with the pace of change in the IT world. At best, you teach concepts and processes and encourage students to maintain their curiosity and willingness to self-teach throughout their career. So, being dogmatic about degrees isn't very productive.
Chris
A friend of mine who does hiring for a smaller tech company tends to view a degree as a negative that must be overcome when he's hiring folks.
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Also, I think it was roo_ster on here who proposed an easy solution to this, assuming that just getting the feds out of the student loan game entirely is not an option right now. Keep the debt non-dischargeable, but make the college co-sign for the loan with an agreement that repaying it will be done solely with non-federal or state generated funds.
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I can't remember the last time I saw a hiring manager give a crap about a degree.
Chris
Unfortunately, sometimes to get to the manager you have to get past the HR first. And they have a degree on the list of requirements, and if you don't have it, your resume can be round-filed. They know jack about the work and can't really judge experience.
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Unfortunately, sometimes to get to the manager you have to get past the HR first. And they have a degree on the list of requirements, and if you don't have it, your resume can be round-filed. They know jack about the work and can't really judge experience.
When I need to hire someone, I tell my recruiters what I need. I write the the job req, I tell them what skills I want, what level of experience, etc. They find candidates and send the resumes to me.
Then there are the times where I simply submit a candidate I know from previous experience and have that person hired. :)
Chris
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If you had it in writing, you probably could have sued over them deciding to not take the credits.
I can also sue Dell to uphold the terms of the service contract on laptop repair. But at the end of the day, the suit costs more than the damages and the time is gone forever.
Like most big businesses they can steamroll on by with the bury the little guy practice and as long as they don't get so outrageous it is a sure enough win to be taken on contingency by a mass tort firm; the status quo is stable.
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Unfortunately, sometimes to get to the manager you have to get past the HR first. And they have a degree on the list of requirements, and if you don't have it, your resume can be round-filed. They know jack about the work and can't really judge experience.
Seems to be pretty much how it works outside of IT... =|
I wouldn't have gotten hired as a park ranger without my bachelors degree. Did I actually use the degree, despite being required? No, it was all OTJ training and experience that ruled the day in that. I also witnessed many of my coworkers (who had been hired on as "temporary" assistant rangers and gained several years of experience) always get passed over for the entry level slots as a permanent employee because they did not have degrees, but a fresh out of school, no experience at all noob would get that job. It's a screwed up system, and it needs to be fixed.
Even some of the trades are getting bad about it. You gotta go to school to break into some of this stuff, despite not actually learning much in school other than the basics.