3 D printed ribeye steak

[MillCreek]

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/raising-the-steaks-first-3d-printed-rib-eye-is-unveiled/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=owned_echobox_f&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1612921250

I would be interested to see a picture, especially of the fat marbling.

[Northwoods]

Ummm.  No.

[kgbsquirrel]

Gonna need to go there tech wise eventually anyways for long duration space travel and colonization.

Hmm, I wonder what the first food animal transported to mars will be.  Probably the fast maturing american chicken I think.

[230RN]

I'm wondering how this meshes or doesn't mesh with various religions' dietary laws.

...Seventy companies are now moving quickly to bring to market beef and other meat, poultry and seafood products derived from muscle tissue grown in a lab with cells harvested from a living animal. Last year was a landmark one for the industry, according to Caroline Bushnell, director of corporate...
Bolding mine.

I'm not clear on what "derived from cells harvested from a living animal" means in terms of dietary restrictions.  Is one cell multiplied a billion or trillion or a gazillion times OK to make a steak?  Or a pork chop?  Or lobster meat?

Will there be some ratio for the leaders of various religions to fight over?



Less seriously, will we finally be able to make a more realistic ballistic gel?

Terry, 230RN

[MechAg94]

A real meat target?   

I wonder if there is a finite life to the cells?  Do they need a living animal to provide new cells for the vats occasionally?

[MillCreek]

'Chicken Little' in the Space Merchants by Fred Pohl was ahead of its time.

[RoadKingLarry]

Heinlein had a lab grown chicken thing in Methuselah's Children.

[MillCreek]

^^^Spot on: http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=1002

[dogmush]

A real meat target?   

I wonder if there is a finite life to the cells?  Do they need a living animal to provide new cells for the vats occasionally?

HeLa cells were first collected in 1951, and are still available for purchase and research today.  Mrs. Lacks certainly hasn't donated any more.  My understanding is that some cells are better than others at dividing indefinitely, but if you have a good strain you can keep them going without refreshing the stock for a long time.

[230RN]

Well, has anyone dealt with the religious dietary laws yet?

The only s-f thing I remember is some writer used a dishwasher that stripped the top monolayer of molecules off the dishes and utensils so the next time they were used it didn't matter what food was put in them.  Thus, two sets of dishes were not needed to "keep kosher."  I don't remember who wrote it but it sure sounds like Heinlein.

So how many cell divisions away from the original pork muscle inoculation has to occur before it is no longer "pork?"

I'm not Jewish, by the way, but I am interested in the possible debate over this and other religions' dietary laws regarding this ersatz meat.

Terry, 230RN

ETA: HeLa cells are a new one on me:
https://www.thoughtco.com/hela-cells-4160415

Researchers believe the reason HeLa cells don't suffer programmed death is because they maintain a version of the enzyme telomerase that prevents gradual shortening of the telomeres of chromosomes. Telomere shortening is implicated in aging and death.

So.  Is He nrietta La cks' body still around in the form of cell clones and being manipulated and un-interred?  Seems to me that's the same as "the 'pork' question."

[cordex]

There are a lot of interpretations of dietary laws.

For instance, some people won’t eat products made with gelatin because some is made from pig. Others will simply avoid pork meat.

A Muslim I know said that there were some seafoods (lobster maybe?) he would prefer not to eat but wouldn’t consider it to be truly haram.

Some Jews will eat shrimp but not pork.

As someone who doesn’t eat pork (but doesn’t avoid gelatin) I probably would not choose to eat lab grown pork meat.

[WLJ]

CA will probably slap a Proposition 65 warning label on every steak. You think I'm joking don't you?

[Hawkmoon]

There are a lot of interpretations of dietary laws.

For instance, some people won’t eat products made with gelatin because some is made from pig. Others will simply avoid pork meat.

A Muslim I know said that there were some seafoods (lobster maybe?) he would prefer not to eat but wouldn’t consider it to be truly haram.

Some Jews will eat shrimp but not pork.

As someone who doesn’t eat pork (but doesn’t avoid gelatin) I probably would not choose to eat lab grown pork meat.

I thought the reason Muslims and Jews don't eat pork had something to do with cloven hooves. Lobsters and shrimp don't have hooves, so why would a Muslim avoid lobster? Do strict Jews avoid lobsters and shrimp?

[lupinus]

Fine by me, meat is meat.

[lupinus]

I thought the reason Muslims and Jews don't eat pork had something to do with cloven hooves. Lobsters and shrimp don't have hooves, so why would a Muslim avoid lobster? Do strict Jews avoid lobsters and shrimp?

There are also dietary restrictions regarding seafood having fins and scales as an adult. There may be some others regarding it, but I seem to recall that being the main one.

[WLJ]

Many won't eat any animal they consider a scavenger because they consider them unclean. Most shell fish fall into this category.

[Ron]

As an aside, nearly all of the food we buy in grocery stores is kosher.

That's assuming it's allowed initially.

[Northwoods]

As an aside, nearly all of the food we buy in grocery stores is kosher.

That's assuming it's allowed initially.

Nope.  Very, very few animals are slaughtered following kosher/halal methods, let alone with the required prayers or specially trained slaughtermen.  For one, USDA (and the European equivalent) require animals to be stunned before being bled out.  Kosher/halal forbids that.  And the way the bleed out cut is made also doesn’t comply in most cases.

[cordex]

There are also dietary restrictions regarding seafood having fins and scales as an adult. There may be some others regarding it, but I seem to recall that being the main one.

For people following Old Testament laws yes. I think the Muslims have a slightly different variation but that likewise nets out to lobster and shellfish being a gray area.

There are also restrictions on birds which as I understand it primarily require specific breeds be identified either biblically or through tradition. Whether turkey is acceptable has some debate among Jews.

So, whether a person or sect decides that lab grown meat originally sourced from a forbidden animal is acceptable is probably going to have a wide variety of responses.

If lab grown human meat were available would APS eat it?

[230RN]

For people following Old Testament laws yes. I think the Muslims have a slightly different variation but that likewise nets out to lobster and shellfish being a gray area.

There are also restrictions on birds which as I understand it primarily require specific breeds be identified either biblically or through tradition. Whether turkey is acceptable has some debate among Jews.

So, whether a person or sect decides that lab grown meat originally sourced from a forbidden animal is acceptable is probably going to have a wide variety of responses.

If lab grown human meat were available would APS eat it?

In fact the bolded part is what I was curious about.

And that's a good question about lab grown human meat. I don't know what market they'd be targeting, though.  In a sense, the answer might establish some boundaries about other lab grown products, which is why you asked it, of course:

"If lab grown human meat were available would APS eat it?"

Never?  After 100 cell divisions?  1000?  1,000,000?

'Tis a puzzlement.

Terry

[French G.]

Hey, as long as we're worried about ethics we can take a few cells from a researcher and clone those and come up with a Donner party recipe right? I mean it's not really human.

[Ron]

Nope.  Very, very few animals are slaughtered following kosher/halal methods, let alone with the required prayers or specially trained slaughtermen.  For one, USDA (and the European equivalent) require animals to be stunned before being bled out.  Kosher/halal forbids that.  And the way the bleed out cut is made also doesn’t comply in most cases.

Well "nearly all" was an overstatement.

There are symbols on the packaging of your canned goods, dry goods, frozen food and veggies as well as a lot of the meat indicating kosher. I just looked and all the ground beef I purchased and stuck in the freezer has a kosher symbol.

Go through your pantry and refrigerator and you will be amazed at how much has been certified kosher.

There are a bunch of different outfits that certify so you need to know what to look for, here is a site that shows some of them. You can just do a goo gle image search also.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ask-the-expert-kosher-symbols/

[kgbsquirrel]

For people following Old Testament laws yes. I think the Muslims have a slightly different variation but that likewise nets out to lobster and shellfish being a gray area.

There are also restrictions on birds which as I understand it primarily require specific breeds be identified either biblically or through tradition. Whether turkey is acceptable has some debate among Jews.

So, whether a person or sect decides that lab grown meat originally sourced from a forbidden animal is acceptable is probably going to have a wide variety of responses.

If lab grown human meat were available would APS eat it?

For nonhuman lab meat:
Only out of necessity.  There are likely other dietary and health aspects that come from consuming meat and fats from an animal with all its organs as opposed to exclusive muscle cells from one particular limb that have been strained from all else in a lab and as a practical physiological aspect I think that obviates the religious question a bit.
For human lab meat:
Eh, if I was trapped on mars with a bio printer and only myself to take a tissue sample, why not?  Same survival delineation as eating anything else human but with a much lower downside in that no one had to die to provide it.  As a normal thing?  Heck no.

[230RN]

kgbsquirrel commented:

There are likely other dietary and health aspects that come from consuming meat and fats from an animal with all its organs as opposed to exclusive muscle cells from one particular limb that have been strained from all else in a lab and as a practical physiological aspect I think that obviates the religious question a bit.

Good point,  similar to the question of how many cell divisions away from the original sample would obviate the religious question(s).

[kgbsquirrel]

kgbsquirrel commented:

Good point,  similar to the question of how many cell divisions away from the original sample would obviate the religious question.

That's still a bit of a theological and philosophical quandary, the Meat of Theseus if you will. *innuendo rimshot*

For the physiological aspect it simply goes "if it isn't a healthy substitute then you shouldn't be eating it, and if you are already not eating it then you don't have to even consider if it is kosher."