Author Topic: V for Vendetta  (Read 11025 times)

doczinn

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V for Vendetta
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2006, 08:41:37 PM »
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Just as the insurgents in Iraq are "patriots", to their fellow Iraqies...
Nope, sorry, you're wrong there.

SOMETIMES the difference is in who writes the history. Sometimes, on the other hand, it's a little more black-and-white.

There are legitimate targets and illegitimate ones. If the insurgents attacked only military and government targets (US or Iraqi), we'd still call them terrorists, but they wouldn't necessarily be. However, they've attacked schools, hospitals, ambulance, mosques, and even crowds of children. That is terrorism, no matter what side you're on.
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Strings

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« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2006, 08:55:52 PM »
>There are legitimate targets and illegitimate ones. If the insurgents attacked only military and government targets (US or Iraqi), we'd still call them terrorists, but they wouldn't necessarily be. However, they've attacked schools, hospitals, ambulance, mosques, and even crowds of children. That is terrorism, no matter what side you're on.<

and we showed such discrimination during our previous wars?

 I'm not condoning what they're doing over there. Nor am I talking about moral relativism. It's more a semantics discussion...

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2006, 09:37:14 PM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
Sam & John Adams, John Hancock, and all the rest were, to the British, terrorists.
OK, but would they have been right to call them such?  I don't claim to know too much about Revolutionary history, but I can't recall anything akin to modern terrorism in the actions of the leaders of the movement.  I'm sure some innocent loyalists were terrorized by "patriots," but were such things endorsed by the men you're talking about?  Even if you look at the mob violence that occurred, it seems to me that it was aimed at people like Thomas Hutchinson; i.e. govt. officials who didn't go along with anti-Parliament or anti-British resistance.  That is a far cry from blowing up a bus-full of civilians who had no say in the matter; or kidnapping and killing any Englishmen who happened to pass by.

As I said, just from my meager knowledge of the subject.
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doczinn

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« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2006, 10:00:41 PM »
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and we showed such discrimination during our previous wars?
We showed an apalling lack of concern for collateral damage, but hospitals, schools, and places of worship were never the targets. Yes, there is still a concrete difference between us and terrorists.
D. R. ZINN

RevDisk

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« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2006, 10:43:08 PM »
Quote from: doczinn
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and we showed such discrimination during our previous wars?
We showed an apalling lack of concern for collateral damage, but hospitals, schools, and places of worship were never the targets. Yes, there is still a concrete difference between us and terrorists.
Not always the case.  Hiroshima.

Note, I'm not arguing against the usage of nuclear weapons during WWII.  I do believe using nuclear weapons meant a ton of US soldiers came home alive.   I'm just pointing out that the US has targetted civilian populations, as Hiroshima was selected expressly as a civilian target.   It had only minor military value, and barely moderate industrial value.   Also note that I'm not saying the US goes after civvie targets every time. Usually it's pretty rare for the US military to entirely target civvies.
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Winston Smith

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« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2006, 05:07:39 AM »
Well this thread has been hijacked!

Regardless, I enjoyed it. A high b+ in my book. Uhh, the movie, not the thread.
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Antibubba

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« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2006, 12:10:02 PM »
I saw it yesterday, and I'll be seeing it again soon.  I think this is Miss Portman's best acting ever.  And Hugo Weaving!  It takes a special kind of actor to be able to portray the range and subtlety of emotions that he does in this movie, and he does it all from behind an immovable mask!  

There is violence, but I liked how most of it is incited, as a once-great people learn to stand up to what has been done to them.  First by being shamed, then by being able to laugh at their government, and finally being "mad as hell and...".  I don't want to spoil this for anyone, so I'll stop there.  

GO SEE IT!
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« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2006, 12:35:17 PM »
I want to amend a bit of my thought,  definatly gotta go see it again in the theatre though.  I loved how V hijacked the PA system and played the last movement of the 1812 overture, that was slick!

the only thing that bugged me (and not enough to ruin the movie) was how the bad guys rose from the conservative party, and not Labor (socialist).  when you toss that in, and then insinuate that them evil conservatives are in bed with catholics and out to get gays and muslims, it adds a political element that takes away from the flick (but not much!)



and the mention of "America's War" annoyed me.  I dunno who said it first,  but if 10 bloody years of vietnam didn't spell an end of western civilization,  i don't think a jaunt through the big litterbox would come close to being our end.

RevDisk

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« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2006, 01:46:06 PM »
Did anyone else expect Hugo Weaving to start one of his lines with "Mr Anderson..."


Great movie.  If nothing else, the amount of discussion shown in this thread means it's more inspiring than the usual drivel put out by Hollywood.   Wink
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xd9fan

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« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2006, 09:32:40 PM »
'Vendetta,' Violence, and the State

by Anthony Gregory

It's interesting how much focus has been placed on whether V, the title character in the new movie V for Vendetta, is portrayed in such a way as to cast a favorable light on terrorism. The more astute reviewers have discussed the movie's blurring of the line between freedom fighters and terrorists. But the most important questions raised in the film, while they do indeed center around terrorism, concern not so much the nature of V but rather that of the main instigator of terrorism, both in the film and real life  the state.

The ethical issues surrounding V's violence  which is directed at the state orchestrators of a harrowing past atrocity, as well as the totalitarian state itself, its régime, its top officials, and its symbols  are not unimportant. The cruelty of V is not a light matter. But his rampage is, for the most part, focused. He does at times, strictly speaking, aggress against the plot's heroine  criminality that she later forgives. He mostly attacks aggressors and those who get in his way.

V's violence, however, pales in comparison, and is secondary, to that of the state, and perhaps it is not so much the alleged glorification of his, but rather the portrayal of the state's, that irks so many people so much about this movie.

In aggrandizement and protection of its power, the state in Vendetta has taken the church under its fold, making it an arm of the government and thus corrupting it completely. It divides and conquers, making the people more afraid of peaceful differences among one another than of the coercive institution that threatens them all. It explores the wretched avenues of biological warfare, tests demonic weapons on its own subjects, and scapegoats others for whatever goes wrong. It forbids unapproved religious texts and anything else seen as challenging its authority. It targets civilians while disingenuously accusing the vigilante of doing so. It murders, rapes, and spies on its citizens without relent.

Any serious dissent from or ridicule of the state is forbidden: the government kills a TV personality for his controversial comedy bit that lambasts the régime's chancellor. (Anti-authoritarians should be glad that Hollywood, although restrained somewhat by law and regulation, remains mostly dominated by private enterprise. Only an uncensored market can allow dissent to come through, as it does in this gloriously un-PC, anti-establishment film. One wonders how much some might actually favor censoring movies this radical in our own time and country.)

The state in Vendetta uses its puppet media to bombard the public with lies, disinformation, and dishonest good news of progress or inflated warnings of perennial threats and worldly strife, depending on its tactical needs of the day. It demonizes the enemy, foreigners, and minorities, rules by force and relies on fear.

It is a crude and secular theocracy, a corporatist managerial dictatorship in which the majority of people are still allowed to live normal lives  albeit amidst economic turmoil caused by the state's policies  as they raise their families, go to work, drink in bars, and drown any potentially dissident thoughts in the distracting drone of state-approved television.

If the film's detractor's don't see any parallels between the dramatized political crisis and that of real life, why do they worry that the movie provides a cover or excuse for terrorism as it is defined in the real world? Were the current situation so tyrannical and desperate as in the movie, would any and all violence against the present state be viewed as terrorism? (Notably, few people seem to similarly see terrorism in the brutalities of other comic book heroes who lash out mercilessly against common, rather than political, thugs.)

I cannot endorse all of V's violent methods. But that is not really the point. As for blowing up empty government buildings, while it may sometimes be arguably defensible in the context of a just revolution, such destruction rarely achieves any improvement. The right to revolution against tyranny, however, is itself an idea at least as old as the United States.

The movie is about such ideas. V considers himself the personification of the idea of retributive justice. He characterizes himself as an "equal and opposing reaction" to the "monstrous" state violence that created him, a monster. To dislike his methods, one must also dislike the brutality that spawned his reactive violence. A difference between him and the state is that the latter practices much more expansive violence against countless innocent people. V's retaliatory violence is met and overshadowed by the state's own, which is far more encompassing. Another difference is that the state's violence enjoys legal privilege; it is obscured and enabled by the concept, held by most its subjects, that the state should be allowed to do what private actors are not.

And that's the real important point to be found in the movie. When a single man does something criminal, he is generally perceived as an anti-social element. When the state practices criminality on a much grander scale, it is considered security. The double standard, taken to an extreme, is the ideology of totalitarianism, the ideology adopted tacitly by the populace in the film.

In response to the statist ideology, V offers his proposed corrective: "People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should by afraid of their people." Coming from a masked avenger intent on blowing up Parliament, this might sound like extremism. But it's not too far from that adage attributed to Thomas Jefferson, who purportedly said, "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." The quotation, often invoked by conservatives, at least when the Democrats are in power, continues into the more radical: "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Was Thomas Jefferson defending terrorism?

Actually, the American Revolution, widely seen as a just overthrow of a state, was far more violent against the innocent and guilty than the revolution portrayed in Vendetta. The belligerent detonation of Parliament is merely "symbolic," as V calls it, of a quieter revolution in social conscience. Ultimately, it is not V's onslaught that unravels the government. What really do the state in are its own precarious foundation and the refusal of people to follow its orders. The mass resistance at the end is non-violent  thousands of denizens refuse to back down as they walk right past the hundreds of troops armed with battle rifles. The military refuses to fire on the people, and lets the outnumbering masses through peacefully. The high-ranking detective charged with apprehending V also refuses to keep playing the game, once he learns the truth about the institution he works for. As in the demise of the Soviet Union, non-compliance and lost faith in the régime are what kill the state in Vendetta.

Thus does a total state meet its maker, having spent massive resources and dedicated legions of people to catch the uncatchable one-man insurgency. The incompetence and inner conflict of bureaucracy come through elegantly in the film. Its curfews, its NSA-style surveillance of every home, its mass arrests do nothing to defeat its elusive and ubiquitous adversary. Instead, both the state and the reactive belligerent it incited fall in concert, as freedom becomes reclaimed by the people.

In the end we see that only fear and passive acquiescence have allowed the oppression to persist. When the people finally realize they far outnumber the state's minions and can stand up to repression, they do so and the despotic charade crumbles. What must happen first is that they must admit to themselves that something has gone terribly wrong with their country. Once they all see the tyranny for what it is and are willing to confront it, it doesn't stand a chance.

When we consider the movie's treatment of government, and for a second look beyond the rogue antics of the horrifying hero it has begotten, then we can perhaps see why some people hate the movie so much. We wouldn't want people to understand the immorality and transience of the state, now would we? If we would, we can only cheer on the popularity of the film, for rarely has the corrupt essence of the state been so compellingly vivified on the silver screen.

March 20, 2006

Anthony Gregory [send him mail] is a writer and musician who lives in Berkeley, California. He is a research analyst at the Independent Institute. See his webpage for more articles and personal information.

TarpleyG

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« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2006, 04:54:39 AM »
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When a single man does something criminal, he is generally perceived as an anti-social element. When the state practices criminality on a much grander scale, it is considered security.
Sound familiar???

I saw the movie on Saturday and loved it.  I think every one should see it and take away from it what they will.  What I have noticed is that the more conservative amonst us tend not to like it while the more liberal amongst us do seem to like it.  Interesting how that works, isn't it.

Greg

xd9fan

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« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2006, 05:08:54 AM »
Tyranny could just as well come from the right with equal help from the neocons and the judical.......because....its for your security!!......with the "war on terror"

Both Pro-Govt parties have equal chance of throwing this country into a legal dictatorship. They just go about it in two differant ways.......warfare and welfare.

The GOP better wake up and calm this "its for your security" crap down.

I have always felt that legal Conceal carry holders should have been adressed by the President to help keep your eyes and ears open.  If a President calls on free Citizens to stay sharp, I have no problem with that.  After all we are armed to protect ourselves, our famlies....and our streets if we have to.  Instead the Admin tells us to look for the rainbow color warning system and to go buy socks(to keep the economy going...like good little drones)........some "war on terror".

The GOP better learn that War does not justifiy limiting our Civil Rights.  I think that is why "V" hits home for me.

doczinn

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« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2006, 06:29:40 AM »
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Usually it's pretty rare for the US military to entirely target civvies.
So rare then as to be the eception that proves the rule, and the word you're looking for in the present day is "never."
D. R. ZINN

Headless Thompson Gunner

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« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2006, 07:56:41 AM »
Quote from: TarpleyG
Sound familiar???

I saw the movie on Saturday and loved it.  I think every one should see it and take away from it what they will.  What I have noticed is that the more conservative amonst us tend not to like it while the more liberal amongst us do seem to like it.  Interesting how that works, isn't it.

Greg
Not very interesting at all, actually.  A big part  of the movie is a thinly disguised hatchet job against conservative views and values.  Would you expect the conservatives to enjoy that as much as the loony fringe leftists?

The movie advances the absurd notion that conservatives want to send homosexuals off to concentration camps.  It supports the equally absurd notion that the war in Iraq will lead naturally towards a civil war in the US, and that this was the war's secret purpose all along.  The heroes of the film are all people victimized by this straw-man depiction of conservative Hitler-wannabes.

As long as you accept it for what it is, a piece fantasy and fiction, "V for Vendetta" is entertaining enough.  But it would have been much better without the kooky Michael Moore politics.

TarpleyG

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« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2006, 09:01:59 AM »
I find myself leaning slightly right of the middle for most issues, however, I feel the .gov does not have my, nor anyone else's, best interest in mind.  I used to believe otherwise but the last 12 years or so has had some influence on my thinking.  Oh, and I voted for Bush too so what does that make me?

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It supports the equally absurd notion that the war in Iraq will lead naturally towards a civil war in the US,
This, I do believe, or at least believe that it is the catalyst, perhaps not the sole reason.


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and that this was the war's secret purpose all along
I don't believe it was engineered as such.

Gregiguessi'makookTarpley

Firethorn

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« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2006, 09:59:41 AM »
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
Not very interesting at all, actually.  A big part  of the movie is a thinly disguised hatchet job against conservative views and values.  Would you expect the conservatives to enjoy that as much as the loony fringe leftists?
Call it strange, but I felt that the government wasn't so much conservative, as taking 'conservative' twist on the actions of Hitler and the Nazi party.

Given that the liberals are currently in charge of the government, the dictator wanna-be took the side of a 'reform' party.  Instigate a crisis where peole loose faith in their current leaders and look towards the other side for leadership.

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The movie advances the absurd notion that conservatives want to send homosexuals off to concentration camps.  It supports the equally absurd notion that the war in Iraq will lead naturally towards a civil war in the US, and that this was the war's secret purpose all along.  The heroes of the film are all people victimized by this straw-man depiction of conservative Hitler-wannabes.
And the Nazis took some mild dislikes and turned them into death camps.  It wasn't just the Jews that went there.  Many 'undesirable' races such as the gypsies were also sent there.

Quote
As long as you accept it for what it is, a piece fantasy and fiction, "V for Vendetta" is entertaining enough.  But it would have been much better without the kooky Michael Moore politics.
Personally, I felt that the very over the topness of it robbed it of such a political message.

RevDisk

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« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2006, 11:06:42 AM »
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
The movie advances the absurd notion that conservatives want to send homosexuals off to concentration camps.  It supports the equally absurd notion that the war in Iraq will lead naturally towards a civil war in the US, and that this was the war's secret purpose all along.  The heroes of the film are all people victimized by this straw-man depiction of conservative Hitler-wannabes.
Yes, because no conservative political movement has sent homosexuals off to concentration camps in relatively recent history, right?  


As for "The Iraqi War causing a civil war in the US", remember this comes from the state TV in the movie.  The same state TV which reports how much false news throughout the movie?
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2006, 02:37:30 PM »
From Anthony Gregory's review:
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its NSA-style surveillance of every home
Please.

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And the Nazis took some mild dislikes and turned them into death camps.
Mild dislikes?  Are you joking, or do you just ignore Europe's long history of anti-Semitism?  Were there not ghettos for Jews, and an inquisition against Jews?  I am told that Passion plays often led to anti-Jewish violence.  All I'm trying to say is that Nazism, I think, was acting on a history of deep-seated and often violent anti-Semitism, not a "mild dislike."
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2006, 02:58:42 PM »
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Yes, because no conservative political movement has sent homosexuals off to concentration camps in relatively recent history, right?
I don't know which regime you're referring to, but what resemblance did they bear to modern American conservatism?  The issue being discussed in this regard is whether the govt. in the film is meant to be a stand-in for a fully-developed American conservative govt. - Bush unleashed, if you will.  Even if American conservatives could resurrect statutes against sodomy, they are far too libertarian for any kind of concentration camp nonsense.  Come to think of it, American conservatism is too libertarian too outlaw sodomy.  Do we seek to keep government from recognizing homosexual marriage?  Yes, but that is a far cry from concentration camps - the two are in no way ideologically linked.

For the record, homosexual marriage is an extension of government power, but we've beat that horse to death on this forum.



Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
It supports the equally absurd notion that the war in Iraq will lead naturally towards a civil war in the US,
Quote from: TarpleyG
This, I do believe, or at least believe that it is the catalyst, perhaps not the sole reason.
Ya think?  TarpleyG, perhaps you are a young fellow like me, and didn't see what went during the Vietnam war.  From the impression that I get, the opposition to that war dwarfed anything we have today.  If civil war erupts in this country, it will take much more of a catalyst than a very small, but successful war with few casualties, followed by a turbulent occupation with a few more casualties.  Few casualties?  Yes.  Putting things in perspective, a few thousand is a blessedly small amount.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2006, 08:23:19 PM »
Quote from: Blackburn
The closest thing to terrorism I can possibly think of would be the Boston Tea Party....

Calling the men of the Revolution 'terrorists' is beyond semantics, it's a misuse of verbage.
It's beyond that; it's a slander.  I would really like to know of the terrorism comitted or condoned by the leadership of the American Revolution.

I don't deny that some acts committed against loyalist families may have amounted to terrorism, but let us define the word.  It refers to violence against non-military targets in order to make a political point.  The actual war against Britain was not terrorism, it was...war.  Mob violence against civilians could be called terrorism, but if so it was extremely mild form, especially when many of these civilians were govt. officials and not innocent bystanders.  Milder still, if the leadership did not celebrate and demand it as do Bin Laden and his ilk.  

Had the American revolutionaries wished to blow people up, they had no shortage of gunpowder and fuses.  Sniping was certainly an option.  I don't recall that such things happened.  Instead, destruction of houses and property were common, and in some cases tarring and feathering.  This last was painful, no doubt, but nothing to compare to the mass slaughter of modern terrorism.

The Boston Tea Party?  Destruction of property, pure and simple.  Direct action, maybe, but not terrorism.  According to the two Oxford histories I consulted, (Morison and Middlekauf), no one was hurt.  A padlock broken by mistake was replaced by the perpatrators.  Yeah, that sounds just like Osama, don't it?
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« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2006, 08:23:23 PM »
hmmm... the war in Iraq spawning a civil war in the US? Has someone being playing with the kool aid again?

 Haven't seen the movie yet. However, the fact that a movie with an anti-government message made it to the screen is somewhat amazing to me...

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2006, 08:29:13 PM »
Oh, wait, am I the only one still posting?
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Strings

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« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2006, 08:30:42 PM »
lemmie guess... you have me on ignore?

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2006, 08:42:45 PM »
Rosie, old pal, why would I do that?  I like you, man.  You posted while I was writing that one, then I let it sit before submitting.  

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You must wait 60 seconds between posts.
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« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2006, 09:29:53 AM »
oh... just checking...

"Rosie"?!?!!?