Author Topic: So should we all move to Montana?  (Read 12056 times)

RaspberrySurprise

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So should we all move to Montana?
« on: May 30, 2008, 10:44:10 PM »
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Several dozen Montana politicians, including Secretary of State Brad Johnson, have adopted an unconventional take on the Second Amendment case currently before the U.S. Supreme Court: Theyve threatened secession. D.C. v. Heller, the first substantive Second Amendment case the Court has heard in nearly 70 years, could definitively settle whether the right to bear arms is an individual right or a collective right.

In a joint resolution, the Montana politicians argue that when Washington approved the state constitution, including a clause granting any person the right to bear arms, upon the Treasure States entry into the Union in 1889, the federal government recognized that clause as consistent with the Second Amendment. If the Court comes down on the side of a collective right, they argue, it would breach the compact for statehood between Montana and the federal government.

Some speak of a living constitution, the meaning of which may evolve and change over time, supporters of the resolution explain on their website. However, the concept of a living contract, one to be disregarded or revised at the whim of one party thereto, is unknown. Therefore, they argue, A collective rights holding in Heller would not only open the Pandoras box of unilaterally morphing contracts, it would also poise Montana to claim appropriate and historically entrenched remedies for contract violation. Said remedies include opting out of its breached compact with the federal governmentin other words, seceding from the Union.

From http://www.reason.com/news/show/126063.html
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Manedwolf

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2008, 11:02:23 PM »
If it wasn't so far from the sea and so COLD...

RaspberrySurprise

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2008, 11:36:20 PM »
I all ready live in the U.P. of Michigan so the cold part doesn't bother me, also less water means less lake effect snow which is good for me. Of course the over all snow fall is probably higher but I suppose you could allow me this one delusion to keep me happy
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MicroBalrog

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2008, 02:34:25 AM »
Of course they're never going to actually secede.
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Manedwolf

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2008, 05:51:44 AM »
Secession makes no sense at all unless you can have a seaport. Otherwise, the surrounding states could just tax you 500% for land shipments crossing your borders.

Perd Hapley

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2008, 05:55:42 AM »
Talk of secession again.  Ho-hum.  The CSA were a geographically juxtaposed block of states with similar grievances against the national government.  The gun issue ain't like that.  Ain't like that at all. 
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zahc

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2008, 08:24:14 AM »
Montana is severely awesome in all respect political. It's paradise. Of course, I was only there for a summer.
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41magsnub

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2008, 10:42:13 AM »
Hell no, stay out.  Too many new people already.  Maybe if you can arrange a 1 for 1 trade for the California folks we can talk...

Manedwolf

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2008, 12:30:15 PM »
Hell no, stay out.  Too many new people already.  Maybe if you can arrange a 1 for 1 trade for the California folks we can talk...

You will be assimilated. You will wake up to see endless new McMansion suburbs. You will have the HomeDepotLowesBestBuyCircuitCityTargetWalMartApplebeesFridaysChilisCVSWalgreensRiteAid sprawl. It Is Inevitable.


nico

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2008, 12:39:40 PM »
Given the politics, recreation, and population density, I'm pretty sure living driving distance from Big Sky would be about as cool a place as I could hope to live.  Unfortunately, reality makes that pretty unlikely undecided

El Tejon

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2008, 01:50:00 PM »
No, we should not move there as we are not all crazy? grin
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41magsnub

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2008, 02:38:46 PM »
Hell no, stay out.  Too many new people already.  Maybe if you can arrange a 1 for 1 trade for the California folks we can talk...

You will be assimilated. You will wake up to see endless new McMansion suburbs. You will have the HomeDepotLowesBestBuyCircuitCityTargetWalMartApplebeesFridaysChilisCVSWalgreensRiteAid sprawl. It Is Inevitable.



I hate you so much.

MechAg94

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2008, 05:28:11 PM »
So if their original statehood agreement is null, would that mean they secede or just revert back to a federal territory? 
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RaspberrySurprise

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2008, 06:42:58 PM »
I'm pretty sure it would just make them a territory again.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2008, 09:43:04 PM »
So if their original statehood agreement is null, would that mean they secede or just revert back to a federal territory? 


Ooh, burn!   laugh
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MicroBalrog

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2008, 11:52:18 PM »
Hell no, stay out.  Too many new people already.  Maybe if you can arrange a 1 for 1 trade for the California folks we can talk...

You will be assimilated. You will wake up to see endless new McMansion suburbs. You will have the HomeDepotLowesBestBuyCircuitCityTargetWalMartApplebeesFridaysChilisCVSWalgreensRiteAid sprawl. It Is Inevitable.



And wht, precisely, is wrong with that?

I find this picture BEAUTIFUL.
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Bigjake

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2008, 06:20:19 AM »
cookie cutter housing, Micro.  It's a pox on any place otherwise beautiful

Manedwolf

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2008, 06:34:45 AM »
cookie cutter housing, Micro.  It's a pox on any place otherwise beautiful

The universally same businesses as well. It's become less and less worthwhile to travel anywhere, because everywhere is becoming the same as everywhere else. California is Texas is Ohio is Florida is Massachusetts is Washington is Virginia is Kansas. You can literally stand outside one of these big-box blight areas of six-lane treeless streets, with cookie cutter housing beyond, and have absolutely no idea where in the country you are. Because they're all the same. So are the same restaurants with the same menus and the same decor, wherever you go, there you are in the same place you left. Add to that the big box stores are built for a specific purpose, so if they close, they're not suited to any other purpose and tend to remain as a blight of vacant boxes. A lot of people don't like it at all.

The ironic thing is that people flee from it, then demand the conveniences, it all arrives again nearly overnight, and they flee again. I wish they'd figure out what they're running from.

Perd Hapley

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2008, 06:45:07 AM »
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the same restaurants with the same menus and the same decor,


But ApplebeesTGIFridaysChilis has all those quaint, unique little bits of retro Americana.   laugh   Is that stuff even real, or just made in China and antiqued? 
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Manedwolf

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2008, 06:53:23 AM »
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the same restaurants with the same menus and the same decor,


But ApplebeesTGIFridaysChilis has all those quaint, unique little bits of retro Americana.   laugh   Is that stuff even real, or just made in China and antiqued? 

They have purchasers who get retro stuff from salvage and antique dealers, they have warehouses of it, and ship it to new restaurants being built with an arranger to fasten it to shelves. Some things are old and easily available like old lanterns and appliances, others are mass-produced reproductions, and the posters and stuff come from corporate, there was an article about that a while back. Cracker Barrel does the same, there's over 500 of those now, and they have a whole warehouse of farm tools, reproduction retro ads, tin signs, and deactivated shotguns to put above the mantlepiece. Applebees, for their faux neighborhood marketing, also does a standard "local" thing where the waiting lobby area has some images obtained from the local library or hall of records of the area's history, and there might be a few pennants from local teams.

I went in a Home Goods for something a while back, and saw a nonworking, Chinese-made antiqued replica of a 1930's American fan meant as shelf decor. So yeah, even the antiques up where you can't see them that closely are often nonfunctional props now.

Hugh Damright

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2008, 07:09:07 AM »
If the SCOTUS says that the Second Amendment regards a select ("collective") right, how would that impact Montana? Would the US suddenly have gun control powers and disarm people in Montana? Would the Montana State Constitution "granting any person the right to bear arms" be null and void? I believe in secession, but I think Montana is just having a hissy fit.

When I think of the things that the feds have done to the South, even in my lifetime ... for these folks in Montana to threaten secession over a ruling on DC gun laws makes me question their judgement. And if the day should come when Montana is really abused, with the feds sticking their nose into their intrastate affairs, legislating from the bench, and the NG and even the military is sent in to Montana to dominate them ... then welcome to the club.

MicroBalrog

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2008, 08:11:58 AM »
cookie cutter housing, Micro.  It's a pox on any place otherwise beautiful

They're HOUSES.

With LAWNS.

That don't cost a goddamn fortune.

People in these houses can enjoy some real, actual privacy,not living in some deranged hive of an appartment building.

Every single one of these people enjoys, for an otherwise numerically insignificant amont, luxuries that, down here, are only affordable to the awesomely rich.
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El Tejon

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2008, 09:00:46 AM »
Micro, look, Mane is on rant.  Don't interrupt him in one his carpet chewing sessions about "cookie cutter" housing with comparisons to the rest of world that desparately wants to live in said "cookie cutter" housing. grin

Next, he'll start frothing at the mouth about transfats.
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41magsnub

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2008, 09:08:04 AM »
cookie cutter housing, Micro.  It's a pox on any place otherwise beautiful

They're HOUSES.

With LAWNS.

That don't cost a goddamn fortune.

People in these houses can enjoy some real, actual privacy,not living in some deranged hive of an appartment building.

Every single one of these people enjoys, for an otherwise numerically insignificant amont, luxuries that, down here, are only affordable to the awesomely rich.

USA =/= Israel

The big complaint is the unrestricted growth and the soulless nature of these areas.  The box stores kill the small stores which used to be part of the character of a town.  Nobody who lived here before urbanization thinks it is a good thing.  The neighborhood hardware store is gone, the corner grocery store is gone, the small sporting goods store is gone, the unique neighborhoods with character of their own are gone. 

There is a way to do growth and keep some character, building square miles of identical houses is not it.

For housing costs, they were a lot less than before the flood of folks came in with their higher incomes from CA jacking up the prices on land here.  Do they have a right to do that?  Sure, does not mean we have to like it. 

RevDisk

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Re: So should we all move to Montana?
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2008, 10:54:36 AM »

Montana isn't going to pull out of the union.  Just rattle the saber a bit.  Still, it's a good showing of support.  My state's constitution has a very strongly worded right to bear arms clause.  PSP generally ignores it when possible.  Philly routinely tries to violate the state and federal constitution, as well as the UFA.


They're HOUSES.

With LAWNS.

That don't cost a goddamn fortune.

People in these houses can enjoy some real, actual privacy,not living in some deranged hive of an appartment building.

Every single one of these people enjoys, for an otherwise numerically insignificant amont, luxuries that, down here, are only affordable to the awesomely rich.

The per capita income for Israel is $33,299, which is pretty respectable.  What is the limiting factor on housing?   Water scarcity?  Taxation?  Government management of property?


Quote
The big complaint is the unrestricted growth and the soulless nature of these areas.  The box stores kill the small stores which used to be part of the character of a town.  Nobody who lived here before urbanization thinks it is a good thing.  The neighborhood hardware store is gone, the corner grocery store is gone, the small sporting goods store is gone, the unique neighborhoods with character of their own are gone.
 

Thing is, no one puts a gun to folks heads to make them buy from big box stores.  I generally avoid them if possible.  Not for any reason besides quality concerns and bad service. 
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