Author Topic: We're doomed  (Read 14522 times)

Euclidean

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2007, 07:51:29 PM »
Euclidean, the area is zoned for development.  We have a Master plan that's been in place for years.  As long as the proposed development conforms with the Master plan, it will be welcomed and approved.  Walmart doesn't want to have to conform, they want special treatment, an exception, to build a store that is larger than the plan allows.  The plan allows 150,000 sq ft., they are welcome build a store that size, but no, Walmart wants to build 350,000 sq ft.  They knew that when they bought the property.  Why should they get special treatment?  Because they're Walmart?



Well if the plan is really that good they want to stick to it, it's still a loss for the city from my angle.  The part I bolded is to emphasize that it's Wal Mart and another developer, and it sounds like to me they just want to put several business together in the same area.  I am at a loss as to what's so bad about that.

The 350k square feet from my understanding of the article is not just for the Wal Mart but also the other development that they want to go with it.  We're talking about an area smaller than 600x600 square feet, or a square roughly 2 football fields long on each side, which is really not that much at all when you're talking about a commercial property.  I am making an assumption here that developer wants to build commercial space on the apron of the Wal Mart.  If this other development includes 2 other businesses (which I bet it does, there's at least that many or more on the apron of every Wal Mart I've ever seen, my local store has ten small businesses on its outlying lots), that'd be 3 businesses with less than the town's allotment for space each, if you wanted to think of it that way.

I also sincerely question how a 150k square foot allotment works.  That'd be a square smaller than 400 feet on a side.  As I said before, the small business I worked for years ago had a facility bigger than that, so I wonder just exactly what they're hoping to build up there.  I realize you can still build a lot on a lot that size, but that also excludes a lot of potentially good stuff.

What I'm reading in here is that Wal Mart may have been dumb for going ahead and buying the land, but my gut tells me if it were any company but Wal Mart requesting the very exception they are asking for (which is reasonable when you look at the 350k square feet as possibly room for several businesses and not just the Wal Mart) they would have looked at the numbers and probably said "Sure go ahead."  I have a feeling that's probably what's going to happen anyway, once the council gets them some Wal Mart money or some kind of concessions they probably wouldn't ask of anyone else because they know Wal Mart has deep pockets.

Zoning rules in every city everywhere are broken all the time by all sorts of people for good reasons.  If I lived in your town I'd just point out that if pressed, Wal Mart will just eventually sell the property after several years has passed and it's worth a lot more.  Heck, around here, they'd probably realize they can buy a piece of property the same size as the one they're taking a bath on for a fifth of the amount if it was just another 5-15 miles out of town, build it there, and then watch the city grow in the direction of the Wal Mart over the next 3 or 4 years (making the values of the homes and properties that aren't near the Wal Mart not increase nearly so much the way), leaving long time residents jawing about how this bustling new neighborhood used to be out in the sticks not too long ago.

I just don't see how Wal Mart is bullying anyone or asking for anything someone else might not ask for.  They are asking for something that doesn't sound crazy to me, and I think what the city gets in exchange for that concession is probably going to be worth it.  Now if the city runs the numbers and has reason to believe it's a losing proposition, okay yeah tell Wal Mart no thanks.  I just highly, highly doubt that the numbers will say that.

Werewolf

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2007, 11:22:21 AM »
...Walmart wants to build 350,000 sq ft.  They knew that when they bought the property.  Why should they get special treatment?  Because they're Walmart?

Certainly because when the DAY comes if your town didn't roll over Walmart's Chinese masters will MAKE - YOU - PAY!

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2007, 07:52:41 PM »
Euclidean, I could go point-counterpoint with all your square footage arguments and post links to the chronology of events and Walmart's (somewhat deceitful) antics since this thing began, but I don't think I will.

Instead, I'll ask why you (seemingly) have a problem with our little towns desire and ability to regulate what businesses we want and don't want.

You see, back in the mid '70's we (the people in this area) began to talk about incorporation, cityhood.  We discussed it and debated and argued for a couple of years then we took a vote.  We overwhelmingly decided we wanted cityhood.  We wanted our parks, roads, and wastewater systems managed and maintained. We wanted local police and fire departments. We wanted standards set for our area in the form of building and municipal codes. We wanted a coherent plan for future growth.  So we formed our city.  We elect our  five city council members every four years and they represent our interests.

The majority of us don't want a Walmart Supercenter in our town.  That's it.  We have no duty to anyone to present our reasons. You're a big free market guy.  How much more free market do you want? l

Len Budney

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2007, 10:09:34 PM »
The majority of us don't want a Walmart Supercenter in our town.  That's it.  We have no duty to anyone to present our reasons. You're a big free market guy.  How much more free market do you want? l

Yow. You realize that what you're describing is the opposite of a free market, right? A free market is when a lady sells her apples if she wants to sell them. In what you're describing, when enough neighbors don't want the lady selling her own apples, they can confiscate her apples and/or kidnap her and stick her in a cage. Do you not see the difference there?

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Paddy

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2007, 06:04:30 AM »
Actually, we have a lady in town who sells not apples, but local honey.  AFAIK, no one has confiscated her apples and/or kidnapped her or stuck her in a cage.  A woman selling apples honey is not a 195,000 sq ft Walmart Supercenter.  Do you not see the difference there?

Len Budney

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2007, 10:35:46 AM »
Actually, we have a lady in town who sells not apples, but local honey.  AFAIK, no one has confiscated her apples and/or kidnapped her or stuck her in a cage.  A woman selling apples honey is not a 195,000 sq ft Walmart Supercenter.  Do you not see the difference there?

Absolutely. You're using the fact that you didn't inflict your violence on Mrs. Honey somehow to justify your infliction of violence on Mr. Walton. You're hoping the fact that lots of people hate Mr. Walton will make us turn a blind eye to your injustice. Unfortunately, you're probably right. It will.

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Paddy

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2007, 11:12:02 AM »
About 20 years ago, we (the people in this community) voluntarily decided to incorporate as a city.  We established a coherent organizational structure for our mutual benefit.  We elect (hire) city councilmen (and women) to represent our interests and perform certain duties on our behalf.

One of the city council's duties is to establish a plan for future growth.  An integral part of this process includes public comment; IOW, anyone who wants to be involved is welcome to do so, either informally or by membership in the planning commission.

In preparing the General plan, consideration is given to existing and future infrastructure; roads, bridges, utilities and other services, etc.  Reasonable limits on expansion and construction are then set so as not to overburden that infrastructure.  Entirely reasonable, dontcha think?

One of the limits for a retail store is a maximum size of 150,000 square feet.  Walmart (forget Mr Walton, he's dead) wants to build a 195,000 square foot store.  Walmart is welcome to build a 150,000 square foot store, but they don't want that. That's why their application was not accepted.

That's an 'injustice' how? 

Len Budney

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2007, 11:26:22 AM »
About 20 years ago, we (the people in this community) voluntarily decided to incorporate as a city...

Yadda yadda. Suppose that twenty years ago, every single solitary person (except me) within 100 miles of where I sit "voluntarily" decided to seize my property and kill me. Do high-sounding phrases like "we the people" turn it into something other than robbery and murder? Of course not.

In precisely the same way, it doesn't matter what phrases you use: no amount of voting, chest-thumping or we-the-peopling gives you the authority to forcibly impose your will on another's person or property. Further, your use of the word "voluntary" is disingenuous. Your victim didn't "volunteer." Who cares whether the folks seizing control of his property are doing so "voluntarily"? When a liquor store is robbed, a bunch of gangstas "voluntarily" decided to do that, too.

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Paddy

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2007, 11:52:47 AM »
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Yadda yadda. Suppose that twenty years ago, every single solitary person (except me) within 100 miles of where I sit "voluntarily" decided to seize my property and kill me. Do high-sounding phrases like "we the people" turn it into something other than robbery and murder? Of course not.

Why do you constantly use this kind of irrelevant hyperbole? We mutually entered into a contract for our own benefit.  The purpose of the contract was not to 'seize property and kill' anyone, not did it in any other way violate anyone's property or rights.  Walmart was well aware of the contract and its terms before they purchased property within the contract boundaries.
 

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In precisely the same way, it doesn't matter what phrases you use: no amount of voting,
chest-thumping or we-the-peopling gives you the authority to forcibly impose your will on another's person or property.

Walmart, being aware of the contract and its terms nonetheless bought property within contract boundaries.  There was no deception; they knew in advance what the rules are.  Now it is Walmart attempting force their will on us, not the other way around.


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Further, your use of the word "voluntary" is disingenuous. Your victim didn't "volunteer."

You have yet to demonstrate how Walmart is a 'victim'.


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Who cares whether the folks seizing control of his property are doing so "voluntarily"? When a liquor store is robbed, a bunch of gangstas "voluntarily" decided to do that, too.

Nobody came along out of the blue and seized control of Walmart's property.  They bought property that was already subject to terms and conditions because of its location.  They knew that.  There is no 'injustice' of any kind here.

Jamisjockey

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2007, 12:20:01 PM »
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The majority of us don't want a Walmart Supercenter in our town.  That's it.  We have no duty to anyone to present our reasons. You're a big free market guy.  How much more free market do you want? l

Oh, and WalMart will just build right outside your city if you don't give in to them.....
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Paddy

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2007, 12:34:09 PM »
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Oh, and WalMart will just build right outside your city if you don't give in to them.....

That's another option, but it's not a fait accompli.  If it were that easy, they wouldn't be hassling us. The county has a General plan, ordinances and building codes also.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2007, 01:46:13 PM »
About 20 years ago, we (the people in this community) voluntarily decided to incorporate as a city.  We established a coherent organizational structure for our mutual benefit.  We elect (hire) city councilmen (and women) to represent our interests and perform certain duties on our behalf.

One of the city council's duties is to establish a plan for future growth.  An integral part of this process includes public comment; IOW, , either informally or by membership in the planning commission.

In preparing the General plan, consideration is given to existing and future infrastructure; roads, bridges, utilities and other services, etc.  Reasonable limits on expansion and construction are then set so as not to overburden that infrastructure.  Entirely reasonable, dontcha think?


 

One of the limits for a retail store is a maximum size of 150,000 square feet.  Walmart (forget Mr Walton, he's dead) wants to build a 195,000 square foot store.  Walmart is welcome to build a 150,000 square foot store, but they don't want that. That's why their application was not accepted.

That's an 'injustice' how? 

not seeing a whole lotta "anyone who wants to be involved is welcome to do so" vis a vis walmart. seems kinda close minded  even for the land of nuts and granola

Perd Hapley

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2007, 02:09:19 PM »
Sit down people.  I'm about to agree with Riley on the Wal-Mart issue.  shocked  His city should be allowed to keep out certain businesses, even if that means they have to prohibit Wal-Mart by name.  Just like they should be allowed to ban porn theaters and such. 
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Len Budney

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2007, 02:12:26 AM »
Why do you constantly use this kind of irrelevant hyperbole? We mutually entered into a contract for our own benefit...

And then mysteriously decided that your contract is binding on people who never agreed to it.

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...not did it in any other way violate anyone's property or rights...

People buy property. Then you step in and tell them what they can and can't do on their property. Simple.

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Walmart, being aware of the contract and its terms nonetheless bought property within contract boundaries...

You just said, "Walmart, knowing full well that the Gambinos run things around here, bought property within their turf (and so implicitly agreed to pay protection money to the Gambinos)."

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You have yet to demonstrate how Walmart is a 'victim'.

They own property, but you tell them what to do with it.

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Who cares whether the folks seizing control of his property are doing so "voluntarily"? When a liquor store is robbed, a bunch of gangstas "voluntarily" decided to do that, too.

Nobody came along out of the blue and seized control of Walmart's property...

That doesn't address the point that the property owner in question wasn't a volunteer, even if all the people dictating to the property owner decided "voluntarily" to start dictating.

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Len Budney

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2007, 02:14:08 AM »
Just like they should be allowed to ban porn theaters and such. 

They should also not be allowed to "ban porn theaters and such." There are legitimate ways to keep the filth out of your neighborhood, but force isn't one of them.

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Euclidean

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #65 on: November 04, 2007, 05:47:52 AM »
This whole situation is exactly what happens when you let the government interfere with commerce: losers all the way around.

I'll say it again: exceptions to zoning laws happen every where, all the time, for all sorts of reasons.  I bet $1 in funny money there's something which violates the square footage rule already in existence, unless this town doesn't have a car dealer or a lumber yard.  I bet they have primarily residential neighborhoods where there are businesses in some of the houses.  Now they may not, I don't know, but if they don't I'm strangely impressed they're that strict.

I also highly doubt a majority of the people don't want the Wal Mart.  Anyone who wants to open a business in the real world has to deal with a lot of bureaucratic red tape, it's nerve wracking for anybody.  Wal Mart has that problem plus faces special discrimination as a big box store, especially as the king of them, and has been involved in similar incidents before.  Once the dust settles and the store is built with some concessions, those stores are always commercially successful for the company.  So is it that a majority of people in those communities didn't want Wal Mart, or just a handful of people who scream "Wal Mart is EEEEEVIL!" (But Target is okay.)

It seems to me that the Wal Mart critics aren't really worried about doing what's good for their community, they just want to somehow lash out at Wal Mart.

Oh and Riles, Walton is gone, but the current Wal Mart execs worked for him for 20-30 years and a number of them are from the original Bentonville area stores, FWIW.  I don't know what any of that has to do with anything but there you go.

Werewolf

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2007, 06:37:58 AM »
Ever hear of zoning laws LEN?

I think you have but are so wrapped up in arguing with Riley that you've conveniently ignored them.

Walmart was aware of zoning restrictions on the property in Riley's town before they bought it. My guess is they figured they wielded a big enough hammer to get a variance.

Sucks to be Walmart in this case because they've run inot a town that says, you're welcome to build here - just keep it under 150,000 sq feet.  Don't like that Walmart - then go peddle your ChiComm crap somewhere else because we're not issuing you a variance.

I hope Riley's town sticks to its guns and continues to tell Walmart to stick it where the sun don't shine.
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Balog

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2007, 06:53:42 AM »
I think arguments with Len go on and on like this because both sides are arguing from fundamentally different worldviews. It's like a devout Muslim going on to a Christian forum and saying "Your theology is bad because it doesn't agree with the Koran."
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Len Budney

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2007, 09:47:11 AM »
Ever hear of zoning laws LEN? I think you have but are so wrapped up in arguing with Riley that you've conveniently ignored them.

We've been talking about nothing but zoning laws in this thread. Um, the entire point of the conversation is that zoning laws are inherently unjust. Which you'd be the first to admit, if the said laws were biting you on the hiney. Which sooner or later they are guaranteed to do.

Disclaimer: I've lived in "historic" Deerfield, Mass, where one can't fix a broken window without permission from the zoning board. I've lived in Connecticut neighborhoods where zoning laws forced us to get rid of our pony, to change the color of our home, to tear down a shed and put up a fence, and all manner of other tom-foolery. I currently live in a duplex near Pittsburgh, which the town intends to rezone "single family," so that one false move on my part will result in the forcible eviction of my tenant and the loss of needed income. Zoning is not simply a theoretical concern for me.

EDIT: Balrog's exactly right. There's a fundamental clash of world-view here. Some people honestly can't comprehend why I might complain at the "rezoning" of my home and forcible eviction of my tenant. It's not like the bloody place is my own private property or anything...

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Werewolf

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2007, 10:30:53 AM »
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It's not like the bloody place is my own private property or anything...
Got news for ya BUD! It's not. You just think it is and the government finds it to its benefit to let you keep believing that.

The real fact is that you only rent your property from the government. If you find that hard to believe then stop paying your property taxes and see how long you continue to own it.

If someone can come along and take away what's yours with out any fear of retribution from anyone and then sell that same property to someone else - well - you don't really own do you...
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Laurent du Var

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2007, 10:31:32 AM »
Zoning laws and building permits are always two edged swords
without a hilt bound to cut everybody involved at least once in a lifetime.
I sure can see the difference between 150000 and 350000 squarefeet.
Could it be that 1 sqauremeters are  roughly 9 squarefeet ?

And yet they are necessary, aren't they ?

Of course I don't know any walmarts and haven't seen any during my two years in the US or maybe I just haven't payed attention.
But here is another question, in a free economy who is to forbid anybody to sell crap ? Meaning pakistany (nice going btw)  produced toiletbrushes which fall apart when looking at them, screwdrivers which lose their edge after the first use and shirts costing 50 cents wholesale reeking after 30 minutes of wearing because they are made of syntetics, sport shoes sewed by 8 year olds  ?
I just read that two thirds of German headstones and we know these poor people die all the time what with all the brats are coming from india who likes
to employ mostly children for the easy work in their quarries.
Is this the free economy ? Chinese  SUVs being  real death traps, they look like a car cost half the money and burn you alive ? Who is to control what anybody sells  ?





 

 
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Len Budney

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2007, 11:05:56 AM »
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It's not like the bloody place is my own private property or anything...

Got news for ya BUD! It's not. You just think it is and the government finds it to its benefit to let you keep believing that.

You make strange use of capitals.

Anyway, the government probably does view the matter as you describe. But I can't tell if you're endorsing the government's position, or not. Jefferson or Washington would respond to your statement with musket balls. They would regard anyone who took that lying down as a slave, and would say, "May your chains rest lightly upon you, and may it never be remembered that you were our countrymen."

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CAnnoneer

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2007, 12:46:48 PM »
The founding fathers did not need to worry about zoning because they had a lot of land and their nearest neighbour was a long walk away in an essentially rural environment. The same conditions however are not supported in modern urban and suburban environments, so the social contract is renegotiated accordingly.

If one does not believe zoning is a good idea, one must consider the possibility that his suburban neighbour would come off the deep end and turn his own land into a nuclear waste dump, or perhaps just a tannery.  laugh

Some freedoms are inevitably curtailed when everybody's rights have to protected maximally within an environment of significantly increased population density. To reverse or curb the process, one has the option of relocating to a sparcer place and/or working politically towards population stabilization.

stephpd

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2007, 01:10:32 PM »
Got 4 walmarts 12 miles or less from my house.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: We're doomed
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2007, 01:32:39 PM »
The founding fathers did not need to worry about zoning because they had a lot of land and their nearest neighbour was a long walk away in an essentially rural environment. The same conditions however are not supported in modern urban and suburban environments, so the social contract is renegotiated accordingly.




I'm really curious what research you've done into the founders' views on zoning laws.  What can you tell us about their views on such small-scale issues?
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