Author Topic: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force  (Read 7627 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« on: May 20, 2011, 10:41:33 AM »
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110519113152.htm

Scientists have discovered that while Fistful is not a force of nature, Dark Energy will drive the universe apart. =D


I can see a reason for there to be an opposing force to counter-act Gravity.  No energy is free or constant. 

It pains me to hear from repeated studies that the universe is expanding and will continue to expand forever until it becomes a meaningless miasma of atomic particles and stale radio waves with no intelligence or purpose to it.  I have a hard time accepting a concept of a beginning or end to Time and I accept the Big Bang about as well as I accept divine Creation.... I think they are human constructs to try and define a "beginning" that never existed.  Ever since Junior High School science class I've always been attached to the notion of the universe as a giant lung.  The Big Bang was an exhale action of that lung, and after a certain point of expansion it will fall in on itself and re-compress into the pre-Bang mass until it hits critical mass and then re-expand again, restarting creation anew.  Though that view is problematic from a conservation of energy standpoint.... altering the acceleration of the entire universe takes more than a little bit of energy.

In light of Gravity having an opposing force (Dark Energy), I think that Dark Energy has some surprising and currently unknown limitations pertaining to its repulsive properties.  The notion that Dark Energy is infinite and has the power to spread the Universe into diffuse chaos is as infantile in its limitlessness as the notion that Gravity has infinite power to cause the Universe to infinitely expand and contract in repeated Big Bangs.

It will be interesting to see if the Voyager probes that are currently leaving Sol's influence and entering the interstellar region past the Heliosheath will alter their velocity in any way due to Dark Energy "accelerating" them.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2011, 10:52:50 AM »
Some theories now indicate that the universe may be "steady state" again, but on a much longer timescale.

And that the next big-bang will happen after a few quintillion years of the heat-death/big rip of expansion, the collision of higher dimensional surfaces, or quantum probability will bring forth another big bang into the empty universe.

There's some partial evidence of this. There's gaps or holes greater than the standard deviation in the COBE survey of the universal background radiation, and they might be spots where other universes (or other big-bang events in our one singular universe) have happened.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2011, 10:57:12 AM »
Meh, it's all relative.
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Nick1911

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2011, 11:25:12 AM »
On the beginning, I think the COBE mission data is really interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBE

The background microwave glow of the universe fits the model that the universe used to be really hot everywhere almost perfectly.

Lots of interesting data out there if one has the time and inclination to sift through it.

AJ Dual

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2011, 11:42:29 AM »
Also interesting.

While ANY estimate that multiplies physical dark matter by orders of magnitude still can't account for observed gravitational effects in how galaxies hold themselves together, we do still keep on finding more and more of the physical stuff. Brown dwarves etc.

Now it turns out there are LOTS of "rogue planets" out there with no star to orbit. Many of them gas-giant sized. Which is interesting, because gas giants provide a few things.

- Billions of years of internal heat from their own formation.
- Many moons if Jupiter/Saturn/Uranus/Neptune are any indication.
- Internal heating of those moons by tidal forces.

So it's possible that there may be lots of interesting worlds out there with volcanisim like Io, or possible underwater deep sea trenches/thermal vents like are believed to be possible on Europa. The Sun keeps Jupiter and it's retinue of moons well lit for visual observation, but it's already far out enough that it provides no warmth for "life as we even remotely know it".

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2011/05/18/New-class-of-homeless-planets-found/UPI-78911305767526/
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Tallpine

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2011, 11:51:45 AM »
But how do we know that gravity isn't the "Dark Force" and the yet to be discovered opposite isn't the "Light Force"  ???
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birdman

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2011, 12:25:59 PM »
On the beginning, I think the COBE mission data is really interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBE

The background microwave glow of the universe fits the model that the universe used to be really hot everywhere almost perfectly.

Lots of interesting data out there if one has the time and inclination to sift through it.

It also defined the information content of the universe at the time atoms formed (thus "freezing" the CBR)...or in other words: science. it works, bit$&es

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2011, 12:27:45 PM »
But how do we know that gravity isn't the "Dark Force" and the yet to be discovered opposite isn't the "Light Force"  ???

I thought it was "dark" because it was harder to detect than gravity. No?
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Tallpine

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2011, 12:44:51 PM »
I thought it was "dark" because it was harder to detect than gravity. No?

That's just because of our frame of reference.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2011, 02:02:50 PM »
I thought it was "dark" because it was harder to detect than gravity. No?

Well, there's a couple of "dark" things being bandied about in modern astronomy/cosmology.

Dark Matter: Dark matter is the unseen mass that surrounds galaxies, or clusters of galaxies. When observing a galaxy's shape and spin as the stars orbit their common center of mass, they orbit in a way that's impossible for the amount of mass and gravity that the visible stars represent. (example, imagine you're on the moon, observing a satellite in orbit about the Earth, but it's speed for that given orbit is such that the Earth would have to be 2 or 3x as heavy as you know it must be for the satellite to be orbiting in the way it is. So something is creating "extra gravity".)

So same with the stars moving about their galaxies, there has to be some kind of extra dark matter/mass, something we can't see, that's exerting the extra gravitational pull to make the galaxies retain the shape they do, and the individual stars we can see orbit in that galaxy the way they do.

The other proof of this that we see, is that galaxies create gravitational lensing (light from further objects bending around the galaxy) we can observe that is also out of proportion to it's visible mass.

There's several different theories, some partially proven as to what this extra dark matter is.

- More regular matter that's not lit like stars so it's hard to see, brown dwarves, way more rogue planets that don't orbit stars than we ever thought existed, black holes that have nothing nearby to suck in and give away their presence, gas dust... We've found some new categories of these things, however, none of them have come even within an order of magnitude of providing the extra mass.

- Swarms of exotic "slippery" particles that don't  have mass and exert gravitational influence, but don't interact with other particles or matter. Like a neutrino but "heavy".

- Some fundamental misunderstanding, or heretofore unobserved macro effect of space-time and gravity.

Dark Energy: Most who are somewhat conversant with astronomy and cosmology know all the observed galaxies and clusters are flying away from each other, and just like motes of dust in an expanding balloon, the farther points of dust are receding faster than the closer points.

However, as astronomers have measured the rate of which the farthest galaxies are receding, they're actually speeding up. Which was quite a shock. So instead of just moving away faster the farther you look, they're accelerating, as if they're being pushed by something.

Possible answers include that gravity is actually a repulsive force over ultra-long distances, or again, some unknown new force in the universe, or some fundamental misunderstanding of motion, gravity, and space-time over very long distances and very large scales.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 02:06:31 PM by AJ Dual »
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230RN

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2011, 02:43:48 PM »
I think the Universe is surrounded by Dark Vacuum, and that's what's pulling everything apart.  The inherent viscosity (Dark Viscosity) of our Universe is why it looks like the furthest stars are moving away faster.

There.  That fits good.



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AJ Dual

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2011, 02:57:19 PM »
I think the Universe is surrounded by Dark Vacuum, and that's what's pulling everything apart.  The inherent viscosity (Dark Viscosity) of our Universe is why it looks like the furthest stars are moving away faster.

There.  That fits good.



I'm not signing this one so nobody will know who posted it.

Actually, that's about as apt a description as anything.

For all we know, relative time runs faster at ultra long distances, so it makes things look like they're accelerating. (shrug)

Since it appears that space time is expanding, over billions of years, only our local group of gravitationally bound galaxies will remain within sight, (Andromeda will have hit and merged with the Milky Way long before then) the others will have passed beyond the visual horizon, so far that light will never reach us, or be so red-shifted into past the IR and microwave region, that their images will be indistinguishable from the background radio hiss of hydrogen.

And it's possible the expansion of space-time with this dark energy may actually unbound what's left of the burnt out galaxies by then, the dust and gas, and burnt out black dwarfs and black holes that remain, and they'll begin to receed from each other.

Eventually whatever cold ashes orbit the dead cores of stars or black holes will be pulled apart, then planet and star-core sized things, and then even atoms, and then sub atomic particles themselves.
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Tallpine

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2011, 03:05:28 PM »
Quote
Some fundamental misunderstanding, or heretofore unobserved macro effect of space-time and gravity.

Most likely, IME ;)
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Fjolnirsson

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2011, 03:44:18 PM »
It's all due to Global Warming...
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TommyGunn

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2011, 05:35:50 PM »
 ???
Since this has to do with space and forces, has anyone thought to ask Luke Skywalker?  The force was with him ...... [tinfoil] [popcorn]    .....................        :angel:
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seeker_two

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2011, 05:40:47 PM »
So...does this mean that there might be a Dark Fistful somewhere out there?.....  [tinfoil]
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

RocketMan

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2011, 07:04:08 PM »
So...does this mean that there might be a Dark Fistful somewhere out there?.....  [tinfoil]

Or a Luke Fistful, or a Fistful Skywalker?  Or maybe a Darth Fistful...yeah, that would be it.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2011, 07:06:23 PM »
Or a Luke Fistful, or a Fistful Skywalker?  Or maybe a Darth Fistful...yeah, that would be it.

Don't flatter His Faultiness... he's merely Fistbacca.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2011, 07:13:57 PM »
Don't flatter His Faultiness... he's merely Fistbacca.

You still flatter him.

Fistiwok.
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seeker_two

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2011, 10:07:49 PM »
  Or maybe a Darth Fistful...yeah, that would be it.

Always two there are.....a Master and a Fistful.....
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2011, 10:27:46 PM »
It's all due to Global Warming...

That makes it Bush's fault doesn't it.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2011, 10:42:39 PM »
Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force - what does this tell us about Helen Thomas?
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230RN

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2011, 05:52:35 AM »
AJ Dual said,


Quote
Quote from: 230RN on May 20, 2011, 12:43:48 PM
I think the Universe is surrounded by Dark Vacuum, and that's what's pulling everything apart.  The inherent viscosity (Dark Viscosity) of our Universe is why it looks like the furthest stars are moving away faster.

There.  That fits good

Quote
Actually, that's about as apt a description as anything.

Jes' overusin' that there razor Occam used. And them there Black Hole guys soak up that there Phlogiston like there was no tomorrow. 
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2011, 09:36:36 AM »
Possible answers include that gravity is actually a repulsive force over ultra-long distances, or again, some unknown new force in the universe, or some fundamental misunderstanding of motion, gravity, and space-time over very long distances and very large scales.

So we may be headed for another change, as when Newton was superseded by relativity, or Euclid by the fractal?
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AJ Dual

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Re: Dark Energy is a Repulsive Force
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2011, 11:45:19 AM »
So we may be headed for another change, as when Newton was superseded by relativity, or Euclid by the fractal?

We're already headed for that paradigm shift in physics because of how quantum mechanics is at odds with general/special relativity and gravity on the macro scale.

Einstein isn't going to be replaced, more just "added onto". Since some very fundamental aspects of Relativity have been confirmed through gravitational and light experiments, from machines in labs, satellites in orbit, measuring the positions of the Voyager probes looking for the variation between their Newtonian position and their actual Einsteinian one, to measuring gravitational lensing of light by distant galaxies. Relativity won't be disproved, as it's a very good theory for "what" happens. What they're looking for is more of a "why" that fits on all scales from the very very small to the very very large. And some blurbs that might fill in a cause for stuff like "dark energy" or long-scale repulsion in the Universe.

This is the quest for super-unification, sometimes called quantum gravity, or "the theory of everything".

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