Author Topic: How to discriminate legally  (Read 13543 times)

Firethorn

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Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2016, 11:53:37 PM »
A "marriage" that only includes one sex. It is nonsensical.
 

Then I'd suggest working on it.  Nonsensical would be a marriage with only 1 person in it.

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There was no prohibition on anyone's individual right to have such unions privately; have "weddings," etc.

True, but none of the benefits either.

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Secondly, the minority status of homosexuals is not the most obvious explanation for the almost total lack of same-sex marriage in human history. And there's really nothing about minority status that would keep people from recognizing same-sex unions. The simple fact is that there is no reason for anyone to "care" about same-sex unions, because they have no particular impact on anyone else. This differs from opposite-sex unions, for obvious reasons.

And my thing is that the 'almost total lack' is merely an appeal to history, not a valid argument.  We had slavery, bloodletting, cannibalism, lead used as a sweetener, human sacrifice, etc in the past.

As you say, they don't affect others.  Well, except in inheritance, healthcare, survivor benefits, visitation and taxes.  So that legal document actually benefits those getting it quite a bit.  But, as you mention, it doesn't affect you much.  So why do you care so damn much.

Deflection, not an argument.

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Pffft. And you're appealing to what, exactly?

Freedom, equality of opportunity, stuff they told me in school that this country was founded on and made us great.

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:rofl:  He keeps going on about this. He's obviously reading nothing I say, so what does it even matter what I say here?  kumquat sally ontology breakfast Right?

I'll stop asking when you stop deflecting and actually answer.  Or can't you?

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It's because homosexual couplings do not affect me, or anyone else, that I. Want. You. And. Your. Government. To. Stay. Out. Of. It. Please repeat the phrase "fistful does not want government to intervene in same-sex relationships," if you read and comprehended what I just said. Thank you.

So why do you care about a certificate issued to somebody else, whom you don't even know?  Do you want government intervening in opposite sex relationships?  Of you're for equality, I'm good with that.

Explanation for expansion, attempt 3?  BENEFITS.  $10k worth of contracts done with minimal hassle.

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Also, FWIW, I've been in a childless marriage for over ten years, now. The thing is, heterosexual relationships naturally result in children. Homosexual relationships don't naturally result in children, and there's no reason to expect or want them to. That wouldn't make sense.

So children aren't a requirement for marriage.  Or are we going to annul yours?

erictank

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Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2016, 07:26:11 AM »
You screwed up your attempt at the image:



I have never been able to post images, for some reason.  I copied and pasted the URL in between the IMG tags, just like always, and got the same broken-image icon out of it.

I don't care THAT much, though it'd be nice if I understood what I'm doing wrong.

erictank

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Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2016, 07:53:23 AM »

As we've seen, Eric's argument was garbage. Also, I've said nothing about the number of partners. I'm talking about the genders involved.

 :rofl:  He keeps going on about this. He's obviously reading nothing I say, so what does it even matter what I say here?  kumquat sally ontology breakfast Right?

Hello?!

It's because homosexual couplings do not affect me, or anyone else, that I. Want. You. And. Your. Government. To. Stay. Out. Of. It. Please repeat the phrase "fistful does not want government to intervene in same-sex relationships," if you read and comprehended what I just said. Thank you.

So, you're agitating damned hard to get govt out of hetero marriages too, then, right?  Immediate removal of all govt recognition and privileges and favors for ANY marriage, right?  Including that $10-30K worth of legal contracts done up for the price of a marriage license paid to the county clerk (I forget how much mine was back in '08 - but I paid it in cash, from what I had in my pocket.  And my fiance and I then went to lunch, and I *STILL* had cash left over).

Because otherwise, your statement makes you out to be a hypocrite.  If it's okay for hetero marriages, it *MUST* be okay for homo marriages.

Marriage is a term applied to all sorts of things other than "one man one woman."  This has been the case for CENTURIES.  At least.  It's nowhere near a new or novel concept, no matter how much you'd like it to be considered as such.  So your attempted appeal to tradition falls flat on its face.

And as has been mentioned, current government recognition of marriages violates the 14th Amendment.  That needs to be fixed.  We can acknowledge that the government can treat all marriages equally, or we can go whole-hog and get government out of marriage entirely.  The former is a good start, the latter is the end-goal.  IMO, we probably need to pass through the former before we can get to the latter, though I'd be pleased to be proven wrong.

So, what's it going to be?  Intellectual honesty, or protection of existing, unConstitutional privilege for some but not others? 

KD5NRH

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Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2016, 09:42:07 AM »
"And I'm a divorce lawyer.  Gay marriage means gay divorce.  Most have two incomes, no kids, and lots of money to spend on attorney fees when the marriage goes to hell."

I need to remember to pick on our extremely conservative Baptist DA for helping out with at least the county's, and possibly Texas' first lesbian marriage when he was fairly new to the legal profession.  Long before it was legal for lesbians to marry.

Seems he just assumed that helping his married client get a sex change legally acknowledged would somehow inherently void the marriage.  Afterward, the judge pointed out that while they couldn't get married, there was nothing on the books that would invalidate an existing marriage.

MechAg94

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Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2016, 10:35:38 AM »

Marriage is a term applied to all sorts of things other than "one man one woman."  This has been the case for CENTURIES.  At least.  It's nowhere near a new or novel concept, no matter how much you'd like it to be considered as such.  So your attempted appeal to tradition falls flat on its face.

Please list some.  I am curious what sorts of things you are referring to.
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makattak

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Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2016, 10:52:19 AM »
So, what's it going to be?  Intellectual honesty, or protection of existing, unConstitutional privilege for some but not others? 

I wasn't aware that the constitution required that all privileges extended by the government to one person must apply to all others.

Excuse me while I go apply for some minority scholarships, women-owned business grants, and veteran benefits.
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lupinus

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Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2016, 12:01:15 PM »
So, you're agitating damned hard to get govt out of hetero marriages too, then, right?  Immediate removal of all govt recognition and privileges and favors for ANY marriage, right?  Including that $10-30K worth of legal contracts done up for the price of a marriage license paid to the county clerk (I forget how much mine was back in '08 - but I paid it in cash, from what I had in my pocket.  And my fiance and I then went to lunch, and I *STILL* had cash left over).
Actually, yes. And fix the tax code while we are at it to remove the tax incentives (preferred tax code is a whole different discussion, of course.)

And 10-30k worth of legal contracts for what exactly? Will? Medical power of attorney/directive? Nuptial agreement spelling out the terms of the union? Short of maybe a prenup/nuptial agreement that only certain people really need now, I can't see any documents needed that a person shouldn't already have now regardless of orientation.

Give it a week and there'll be a section in every big box office store with generic fill in your names documents, internet legal services, and lawyers offering a pencil whipping package for a lot less than 10-30k that will cover 99% of folks. Toss in a fee to the county in areas where you need to put such documents on file. Take your pick on how generic/customized you want it to be.
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Firethorn

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Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2016, 02:15:22 PM »
I have never been able to post images, for some reason.  I copied and pasted the URL in between the IMG tags, just like always, and got the same broken-image icon out of it.

I don't care THAT much, though it'd be nice if I understood what I'm doing wrong.

Okay, I think I know what the problem is.  You're pasting the page url, not the image url.  Page url is up on top in the bar.  Image url is a touch more complicated.

Page url: http://giphy.com/gifs/orson-welles-citizen-kane-a-deadly-adoption-UTT6QbG4EPOIE
Image url: https://media.giphy.com/media/UTT6QbG4EPOIE/giphy.gif

A image url will(in my experience) always end in a dot something - .gif/.jpg/.jpeg/.png type stuff.  HTML might or might not have the period, or will end in stuff like .htm/.html/.php/.asp/...

If you're using firefox(or similar), you want to right-click on the image you want to link to and select "copy image location".  The address on the bar is incorrect unless you're ONLY seeing the image.


Firethorn

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Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2016, 03:08:01 PM »
I wasn't aware that the constitution required that all privileges extended by the government to one person must apply to all others.

Ideally speaking, it shouldn't be arbitrarily discriminatory about it.  IE your race/sex/religion shouldn't factor into it.

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Excuse me while I go apply for some minority scholarships, women-owned business grants, and veteran benefits.

I actually oppose 2 out of the 3 of those outright, and am generally opposed to the 3rd.

Actually, yes. And fix the tax code while we are at it to remove the tax incentives (preferred tax code is a whole different discussion, of course.)

The heteros would scream at that one.  They fought hard for that benefit.  Called it the 'marriage penalty' when it would cost a dual-income family more in taxes than if they filed as singles.

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And 10-30k worth of legal contracts for what exactly? Will? Medical power of attorney/directive? Nuptial agreement spelling out the terms of the union? Short of maybe a prenup/nuptial agreement that only certain people really need now, I can't see any documents needed that a person shouldn't already have now regardless of orientation.

"Yes, and more".  One SHOULD always have a will, but a marriage certificate comes with a default one that's different than for a single person.  Most marriages don't involve a pre-nup, because in 'most cases' the default terms for ending the contract are good enough for most people.  If you're not getting a marriage certificate, that all has to be drawn up manually.  You don't just have medical powers of attorney, you also have financial ones to worry about.  There's also the cost of the name change(not everybody who gets married takes the option, but it's there and effectively at no additional cost).  There's paperwork that needs to be filed for any property that's becoming joint - house, cars, etc...  There's paperwork for things like retirement funds.  It amounted to not just pointing out how gays were being 'screwed over' - it also pointed out how 'oh *expletive deleted*it' deep reaching a marriage license actually runs.  It affects pretty much everything.  Hell, consider a criminal trial - can a gay guy be forced to testify against his paramour, where a wife can not be forced to testify against her husband?

Now, I'll admit that I can't find the source document anymore and I think that they were doing something of a 'worst case' for a couple that could be considered middle class.  They might have even included some money for the value of benefits that just can't be duplicated by contracts.  Survivor benefits, for example, would have to be replaced by a life insurance policy.

And yes, you could probably get 90% of the effectiveness at 10% of the cost, as things go.

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Give it a week and there'll be a section in every big box office store with generic fill in your names documents, internet legal services, and lawyers offering a pencil whipping package for a lot less than 10-30k that will cover 99% of folks.

Well, this article predated most of the 'fill in the boxes' legal documentation preparation packages.  Also, as you noted, it was non-standard for the time, and now that they can just get married, it'll stay that way.  Part of the problem noted in the article was that even documents professionally prepared by lawyers were being disregarded.  Marriage documents were proving to be stronger.  Said documents were particularly disregarded by medical providers, who would often default back to the parents even as the 'spouse' presented the professionally prepared medical power of attorney.  That's an issue in and of itself, I think, gay or otherwise.  I can easily see somebody who's single, but estranged from his parents, selecting his best friend(male, non-sexual friendship) to be his medical backup for choices if something difficult happens.

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Toss in a fee to the county in areas where you need to put such documents on file. Take your pick on how generic/customized you want it to be.

And how likely is that fee alone to match the cost of a marriage license?