Ares Armor and the ATF

[p12]

California gun parts store refuses to turn over customer list to federal officials
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/15/california-gun-store-refuses-to-turn-over-customer-list-to-federal-officials/

We need to watch this. Sounds like Ares Armor is pushing back.

[Ben]

Just read it this morning. I'm waiting to see if Kamala Harris decides to get involved at the state level and give him the double whammy. I hope the NRA and privacy organizations get involved to help. I'd hate to see him go bankrupt for doing the right thing.

[freakazoid]

Surprised they didn't mention this part, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzBkcUZnm-w
They have been fighting the city over their sign with an AR-15 on it for a while now. Looks like the harassment continues. I really need to stop by their store and give them my business.

[Fly320s]

I've been following this story on other forums. One of them, pistol-forum.com, had this posted:

It's important to note that this is about a specific 80% receiver that the BATF judged to have gone too far in reducing the level of skill required to complete manufacture. I think it was something along the lines of a polymer lower with "drill here" dimples molded into it, so no jig setup or measurement was required to get it right.

The problem is that the Feds are trying to get the horses back in the barn by tracking down the many folks who bought this particular 80% lower, which according to them is an unserialized firearm which should have gone through an FFL.

This is why it's critical that anyone buying an 80% lower to complete on their own should get it from a source which has an ATF opinion letter on hand for their specific design. Pretty sure the Ares lowers in question had no such opinion letter.

Here's the thread: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11647-Ares-Armor-vs-BATF

[dogmush]

Close but not quite.  

At question is some polymer lowers from EP Armory.  As you can see in addition to little pins that stick out for the holes they have a molded insert for the fire control pocket.  The ATF has stated (with no evidence) that EP molds the lower, then fills the Fire control pocket with that little white plug.  That means there is a time during manufacture that the fire control pocket is open and at that point, presto, it's an unserialized firearm.  Ares is a major reseller of EP Lowers and so the ATF wants their customer list to track down the firearms.

The problem is that that ISN'T how the lowers are made.  That white plug is placed in the mold and the lower is formed AROUND it.  At no time during the manufacture of EP lowers (according to EP) are any of the five steps the ATF has held to be "finishing" completed.  So they don't have a case, there are no unserialized lowers and Ares doesn't want to give out their customer records.

Personally I bought some swag from Ares when I read about this, and sent them an e-mail explaining why.  I'll shoot them some more business when I start my next project.

I suspect that the ATF didn't realize how big the "make your own" firearm hobby had gotten, and with Sen. Ghost Gun spouting off, they are trying to DO SOMETHING (tm).  Being in CA only makes it easier.

ETA:  That page I linked has a video of a guy completing one in under an hour with a dremel, and a drill.  They might be wound up about that as well.  The polymer 80% lower thing is going to make a LOT more folks think about building a gun, just because it's so much easier and cheaper.  Completely unrelated I got my shipping notice for my Polymer80 lower this week. 

[Tallpine]

Personally I bought some swag from Ares when I read about this, and sent them an e-mail explaining why.

Now you are on the list 

[dogmush]

Now you are on the list 

I hope so, I try hard enough.

[230RN]

The prosecutorial handbook:

"Accusations are cheap.  Defense is expensive."

And see sig line.

[Gewehr98]

Looks like they went ahead and did a raid, anyway?

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/daniel-zimmerman/breaking-ares-armor-raided-atf/

[Ben]

Looks like they went ahead and did a raid, anyway?

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/daniel-zimmerman/breaking-ares-armor-raided-atf/

I hope they had a chance to encrypt their data.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i have made better to beg forgiveness than ask permission my mantra in life.  and i would NOT have done that.  judge will want to break it off in someone unless they got a court order flushing his

[freakazoid]

Wow. I almost left earlier today to go there but cleaning the apartment took up all my time.

[Ben]

i have made better to beg forgiveness than ask permission my mantra in life.  and i would NOT have done that.  judge will want to break it off in someone unless they got a court order flushing his

I guess there's a couple of ways of looking at it. If it were just me and my own data involved (depending on what those data were), and trying to get myself off the hook, I might take your road and not encrypt or otherwise hide data and avoid pissing off the judge. If I felt that other people had entrusted me to keep their private information safe, then I would feel obligated to do that, regardless of if the judge or anyone else liked it. Honor over unjust laws, and face the consequences. Which is why I hope that Ares gets outside legal help, because they are likely going to need it.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I guess there's a couple of ways of looking at it. If it were just me and my own data involved (depending on what those data were), and trying to get myself off the hook, I might take your road and not encrypt or otherwise hide data and avoid pissing off the judge. If I felt that other people had entrusted me to keep their private information safe, then I would feel obligated to do that, regardless of if the judge or anyone else liked it. Honor over unjust laws, and face the consequences. Which is why I hope that Ares gets outside legal help, because they are likely going to need it.

sorry ben i was unclear. i think the atfe may have stepped on their own crank   in a large way  i hope so

[AmbulanceDriver]

I think it was on the TTAG post that someone mentioned this - assuming that the data was still on site and not encrypted, ATF now has what they want, the customer list.  And I can guaran-damn-tee you that they're hurriedly taking backup copies of the data - multiple.  Because even if the judge finds that they violated the restraining order, and orders the property turned back over to Ares, as well as monetary compensation, ATF doesn't care.  Because they will have what they wanted.  And so what if they have to shell out some of the taxpayer dollars.  I doubt any of them would face any personal liability, whether monetary or jail time.

[freakazoid]

I think it was on the TTAG post that someone mentioned this - assuming that the data was still on site and not encrypted, ATF now has what they want, the customer list.  And I can guaran-damn-tee you that they're hurriedly taking backup copies of the data - multiple.  Because even if the judge finds that they violated the restraining order, and orders the property turned back over to Ares, as well as monetary compensation, ATF doesn't care.  Because they will have what they wanted.  And so what if they have to shell out some of the taxpayer dollars.  I doubt any of them would face any personal liability, whether monetary or jail time.

This.
I wonder what kind of information they would have. It's not like the people filled out FFL forms. Would have to be credit card info with who bought what.

This is almost like out of a book or something.

Can't imagine I would of behaved well if I happened to of been there.

[Perd Hapley]

sorry ben i was unclear. i think the atfe may have stepped on their own crank   in a large way  i hope so

Actually, csd, the majority of your posts are cryptic mumbling. I'm not sure if you're aware of this.

[Bigjake]

Beware TTAG.  *expletive deleted*che bags, they are.

[Tallpine]

Actually, csd, the majority of your posts are cryptic mumbling. I'm not sure if you're aware of this.

its a feature knot a bug

[Ben]

sorry ben i was unclear. i think the atfe may have stepped on their own crank   in a large way  i hope so

Gotchya. Agree.

[Scout26]

And now if the ATF goes after the customers they can show that "used other means" to get their info.  Even thought they got if from the customer list.  

The creating a trail of "clean" evidence from the "dirty" evidence they just took from Ares.   Remember this?  http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=40603.0


 

[Angel Eyes]

CalGuns Foundation has confirmed that the BATF has a list of Ares' customers, and multiple properties have been searched.  Whether that includes customers' homes is not clear at this point.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=907095

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=907076

[freakazoid]

That was fast.

[freakazoid]

nutnfancy has new video up talking about the raid, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBVzsfF_wIM
He calls up Dimitri, the owner of the store, and talks to him.

The first video I posted up at the top is when he went to the store and talked to them about the harassment they were getting from the city about their sign and also shows off the store and even talks about the lowers that this is all about. Pretty interesting stuff.

edit - At the 13:09 mark, what is the rifle he is holding?

[Angel Eyes]

nutnfancy has new video up talking about the raid, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBVzsfF_wIM

. . . in his usual laconic style.